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@hikingout post #80:

It is quite possible she might have, from my vantage point. ETA: Or rather, she may have trickled-truthed herself so well that she believes PIV never happened well enough to have it not detected on the lie-detector test. We are going by occam's razor here. It's awfully hard for me to believe that WW was in all of these situations and PIV did not occur as claimed.

ETA: Lie detectors aren't these all-knowing oracles, you know. All these tests do is compare micro-physiological responses incurred during someone's answers to the tough questions, versus a baseline. If there is a noticeable difference according to the machine, then the detector says lying, if there is no difference then the detector does not react. If I truly believe that the Capital of the USA is Topeka, KS, then if I say that in a lie-detector test, then the test will say I am telling the truth. Or rather instead, the test will say that it does not detect that I am lying.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:35 AM, Wednesday, March 26th]

Now, I'm not a psychologist. I can't diagnose anything or anyone. But, on here we HAVE seen people trickle-truthing themselves so strongly that new revelations are DDays for the WS as well. We have also read some pretty unbelievable stories.

Now, I do think that there is a tendency for almost all of us, when writing about our own bad behaviour, to end up coming off as more sympathetic. I'm not quite sure why that is actually. Maybe something about a sinner opening themselves up and repenting? We are all sinners in some sense. Anyway, a WS can come on here and say how disappointed she is at herself for e.g., always shutting down or making it about her or whatever, and how badly she wants to do better. And people on here will find themselves more sympathetic to her. Now, she is likely being honest, a part of her really truly wants to do better. But there probably is also some self-monitoring going on when a WS writes. She also may see her behaviour written out on a screen for others to read, and so she wants to do whatever she can so she doesn't come across as this awful monster, and saying that this is all out of fear or shame or whatever, can be a way to do so.

We do need to acknowledge that this may be happening. The OP however, may be dealing with his WW's unvarnished unsympathetic shadow self--the one lashing out or shutting down on him.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:31 AM, Wednesday, March 26th]

I personally think her carrying around these condoms needs a plausible explanation. That hanging out there, along with the general truism that it always comes out that it did go all the way, regardless of the protests of the WS AND the very plausible narrative of 5BD’s STI hypothesis, and this polygraph means very little to me.

Yeah, getting back to occam's razor, people have beaten lie-detector tests, they just have to be good enough at lying to themselves. I've never heard of a woman carrying around condoms for all those years and not having PIV sex though. That's unbelievable to me.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:23 AM, Wednesday, March 26th]

To the question of what to believe:

Trickle truth is an abomination on par with the affair itself. It should not be accepted or condoned at all. I understand why many betrayed do stay in it, because we’re traumatized and disoriented. But as someone on the other side of it, it is atrocious and should not be tolerated.

You deserve to know the honest to God truth of the events that transpired, to your heart and mind’s content. But you won’t get that. Ever. And that is because the only possible source of that information is a forgetful, self deluded liar.

I have come to envision the betrayed’s understanding of the affair as a house of cards. It can be carefully and painstakingly put together and have form, but we will always recognize it as a rickety place in our mind because it’s not our own memories, but rather the testimony of our betrayer. But it is the best we can do, so we need to embrace it so we can move forward, so we can calm our tortured minds.

I make two recommendations: don’t try to start this process until you believe you have all the truth. And as soon as the WS knocks down the house of cards with trickle truth, just walk away. No more chances. It’s too mentally and emotionally damaging.

Fpp, hikingout, Wbfa,

I dont know. Its dicey.

I never believed the disclosure was full, but Ww insisted that was the final version. When I told her I was going to test it via polygraph, she broke down.

Ww was terrified of the polygraph. Her father HATES polygraphs, had experience with so many as an engineer for defense contracts.

I felt some peace that it was coming, but it was like I had just clawed it back from her or something, I dont know, I didnt want to feel better while she spiraled. That wasnt the kind of win I wanted.

Our therapist had me reschedule it. That sent me spiraling and Ww soaring. So I was sure she wasnt going to pass.

I scheduled it again, but with the therapists blessing. She seemed more accepting.

The morning of, she was happy, singing, sweet. Not what I expected at all. She was scared in the test, but she passed. I felt great!

I also felt terrible for doubting the shit out of her. Months went by, and we were feeling pretty good,

Then alot of things I remembered from back then crept into my head. Then my gut nagged me. I started looking into her electronics.

I asked for contact info for the APs and anyone around back then. During disclosure she said she didnt have it. I got it from online searches, the bit I could. But she had all of it in her Ipad. She said she had the APs in contacts to block them. That was true but for J, his wasnt blocked.

Found 8 secret email accounts that werent shared in disclosure. They were all purged down to the welcome emails, ranging in creation dates 2014-2024. Initial condom counts happened here, around last august.

Red flag count was pretty high. But the polygraph, she passed it.

Late last fall I checked the polygraphers google reviews. Found this,

"I’ll be honest. As a woman, I initially liked xxxx because she’s a "woman’s woman." Let me explain. My boyfriend and I went to her for a lie detector test, and I passed every single question—even though I knew I was lying. That’s why I felt comfortable going to her. I hoped she might understand the position I was in and, in a way, help me lie. Now, I can’t say for sure that xxxx intentionally helped me lie; maybe she just doesn’t know what she’s doing. Either way, this is what happened.

At first, I thought I had dodged a bullet. The test made me look good and saved my relationship temporarily. But my boyfriend wasn’t having it. He saw right through the test and knew it was bogus. Honestly, I knew it too, but I didn’t want to admit it because it worked in my favor.

A few days later, my boyfriend decided to dig deeper and reached out to some people on his own. Eventually, the truth came out, and I had to admit to the things I was guilty of. Now, I’m trying to repair my relationship, but the damage has already been done.

Looking back, even though I was relieved at first that xxxx’s test seemed to "help" me, it actually backfired and made things much worse. I should have just been honest from the beginning. I would have saved myself a lot of money, stress, and emotional damage. Xxxx’s test, whether due to her lack of expertise or otherwise, gave me false confidence in my lies, which only made the fallout even harder in the end."

Yeah, I know, its just a review on the internet. Theres been other people saying everyone passes. I dont know.

Rediscovering Ww got sick after the nightclub thing in our texts,

And recently theres condoms returning, revelations of having seen a penis(previously denied)

So I dunno. Cant trust Ww, cant trust myself. Got the wool pulled over my eyes in so many ways for so long how could I.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 12:55 AM, Wednesday, March 26th]

Because deciding to process your feelings has nothing to do with the outcome of your marriage. It’s the outcome of you being able to heal regardless of what she is or isn’t doing.

I think ink would tell you that it took him healing some first before clarity arrived for him. So work on that. The more you focus on her or your marriage the longer you are going to be in this pain. Take your power back and decide about what boundaries might look like.

I do agree whole heartedly with this. It took me a long time to decouple my personal healing from the marriage. Something like a year and half I think. But once I was able to do that I was able to takes steps toward truly living again. If my stbxw could have been honest, vulnerable, and loving, we would have had a great chance. But when she proved over and over again that she wasn’t going to go there, I had to find the self love and self respect to get out. I’m so glad I did.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 1:08 AM, Wednesday, March 26th]

So I dunno. Cant trust Ww, cant trust myself. Got the wool pulled over my eyes in so many ways for so long how could I.

Don’t try to force yourself to believe her if you don’t. Every liar risks never being trusted again because of their choice to lie. If it’s the outlier case that the known liar is actually telling the truth, it just so happens to sound completely and utterly implausible, I say that is their problem, not yours.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 1:07 AM, Wednesday, March 26th]

5bd,

I don’t know if it will mean anything to you, regarding your recent revelation of possible swapping, but BV is very commonly transmitted in those situations. It’s an STI, but more akin to a yeast infection than the more serious ones.

@hikingout post #80:

I should say it a bit stronger than I said earlier in my post #82. OP's WW is still clearly trying to control the narrative w OP. You do allow that OP's WW may also be trying to control the narrative on SI, no?

I dont think shes trying to do that. Really, shes on here, saying her peace, trying her best. Im not mad at her for being here, its the bravest thing Ive seen.

Im sharing and venting. It wouldnt hurt If I didnt love her dearly. And she wouldnt be here at all if she didnt love me. Really, there is so much baby in this bathwater.

I think shes holding back, maybe still got a lot to hide still. I think she might have fooled herself, and definitely isnt there yet.

Shes not slippery. Shes just scared.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 2:02 AM, Wednesday, March 26th]

Shes not slippery. Shes just scared.

I said exactly this sort of thing, and mine was still slippery as a greased hog. You just can’t know at this stage.

I give her some credit for posting, but that disappears if she’s lying and using this to gain credibility.

For the users that are interacting with 5BD’s WW in the Wayward side, I would caution you against getting sucked into a mediator role. It hasn’t happened here in a long time, but back when the site was more active, people would sometimes get invested in a couple’s story and then end up getting triangulated into a conflict.

Now back to the topic at hand…

5BD, your wife would not be the first cheater on SI to pass a polygraph with flying colors only for new facts to emerge after that prove they were lying.

In your wife’s case, there are far too many logical leaps, convenient coincidences, and excuses you would have to make for her story to make any sense.

But even if her version is true, it’s still disgusting and you would still have a hard time living with it. And as you’ve described in your other posts, her cheating is just one way in which she’s demonstrated her contempt and disrespect for you.

Most people who choose to reconcile are at least able to say "Yes, she cheated but for most of our relationship she was loving and attentive, a great mother, etc, etc."

So even if you want to build a "new marriage" from the rubble of your old one, do you think you even have a foundation? Or would you just be stacking bricks on quick sand?

This morning, Im thinking alot about several things Fpp said yesterday.

I realize alot of what Ive become preoccupied with is sifting through a bunch of decade old ashes trying to work out what kind of tree the wood used to be. Its a moot point, we knew it was a lying cheating tree.

We knew we wanted to move past our resentments and move forwards together planting something new; same cast, different script.

Ive sort of become unstable in my pursuit, forsaking myself a bit. And Ive obviously lost track of the concept of accepting the things I cant change, and the wisdom to know the difference. Ive got work to do to square that back up.

In the same brain, Im not ready to pronounce any kind of plan to accept "knowing enough".
Its too far from where Im at, as Hikingout said.
I think doing that at this point would be a disservice to both of us.

As Inkhulk said, Im entitled to a clean understanding of what Im signing If the gift of truly moving forward is to be given. And Im gonna stand on that.

Maybe I’ll stop harping at her about it for the time being, though.

I have my Individual session with the infidelity specialist tomorrow.

BluerthanBlue,

I can say this much; there wasnt a moment when I doubted her love or engagement at home. Shes a terrific pal, a passionate lover, and I can say I have no regrets about choosing her. We built alot together. When we met, neither of us had a dime to our names. We built a dream together to share our lives, our way, with blood sweat and tears. Its not about finance, to be clear. Its about us.

Seeing that dream actualized is still worth all this to me.

Before coming here, I was the only person Ww has talked to about the cheating. The waywards on this forum have given her very kind counsel, and its making a difference in the way she relates to me.
Its not manipulation, its real progress. I could not be the one to give that to her, I lack the experience. I dont want her discouraged from getting support.

Shes been alone with this guilt and shame a long time.

We both deserve better, its time to address it.

I will reiterate, I believe you are entitled to the truth.

I don’t know about the polygraph thing, Anything is possible. I don’t rule out that the right questions were not asked or that she could be hiding things. And I suppose people do pass while still lying but having had one it’s hard for me to see an ordinary person doing that with that kind of pressure.

As an outsider I could see two scenarios. Blue drops has been trickle truthed so much he can’t trust his gut and won’t ever feel he has the truth. This happens a lot.

Or she is holding out in other stuff he has no idea to ask about and that is related to the condoms somehow. Personally, if one was being sneaky you wouldn’t think she would return old condoms to the drawer. But the rest of blue drops depiction makes it seem sketchy at best. The fact it’s so recent too is weird.

Personally, I can’t tell and won’t assume whatever is happening. The only thing I will do is keep encouraging her to stop being defensive, help her with her ws work, and that’s it.

I support blue drops on getting the truth.

As far as those of you saying she wants to control the outcome- of course she does. I have rarely found a ws or bs who shows up here without a desire towards an outcome. She doesn’t want a divorce. Being terrified is not evil, it’s human. Could it be that she lies because of it? Yes, absolutely. I think actually because she is so afraid of what his reaction to what she tells him is so high strung that she is more focused on appeasing him than digging for the deeper truth. So I acknowledge the concerns.

I personally had a polygraph with my husband and we based some of our reconciliation on passing. Having been through that experience it’s not nothing. I sort of land on it’s a good chance the parts she has told are what they are. It’s everything outside of that I couldn’t tell ya. I have been direct with her about that.

But we are not here to put anyone on trial. It’s not our job to do anything but support the two of them towards their our individual healing. I won’t tell blue drops what to believe, I was sharing what I thought and wondered what he thought. I haven’t changed my opinion.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:47 PM, Wednesday, March 26th]

Before coming here, I was the only person Ww has talked to about the cheating. The waywards on this forum have given her very kind counsel, and its making a difference in the way she relates to me.
Its not manipulation, its real progress. I could not be the one to give that to her, I lack the experience. I dont want her discouraged from getting support.

To be clear, I'm not saying she shouldn't post or get counsel here. If she's getting wise guidance and it's helping you communicate more openly and honestly together, that's a good thing.

But the hazard with that is that, knowing she's reading, it makes it hard to give you frank or strategic advice. You might feel compelled to immediately jump to her defense.

Also, as I said, other people who are posting in both forum may inadvertently end up playing mediator or referee. I've seen this happen many times. I think your posts should be about giving advice to and supporting you; her posts should be about her.

And with that all said, I hope you're able to work things out, one way or another.

For the users that are interacting with 5BD’s WW in the Wayward side, I would caution you against getting sucked into a mediator role. It hasn’t happened here in a long time, but back when the site was more active, people would sometimes get invested in a couple’s story and then end up getting triangulated into a conflict

Well that’s just me, isn’t it? No one else in that thread are over on this one.

I have been here a long time too. And I have experienced what you are saying, my husband was here a very short time if you remember. And some of his comments were used against me when I found out about his affair. I am not here to be on any one’s side or be triangulated. I support blue drops ultimately as he is the reason that I began answering in her thread. I want him to be able to get what he needs from her if it can be gotten.

And as I have begun helping her, I support her healing as well. My reason for being in this forum at all is to support healing. I don’t have a invested stake at the outcome of their marriage. I do not think everyone should reconcile or divorce. I think both of them just need to heal more so there can be clarity.

I make two recommendations: don’t try to start this process until you believe you have all the truth.

Agree, that’s why I suggested forget about working in the relationship too much right now. Give each other some space to heal. I would also agree don’t force yourself to believe something you don’t. That never works, it hasn’t worked for 11 years.

And as soon as the WS knocks down the house of cards with trickle truth, just walk away. No more chances. It’s too mentally and emotionally damaging.

I am not sure about this part. Let’s say there is more to know, it feels like that there is. I don’t know what that means but for sure as I have said she is definitely more worried about his reaction sometimes than anything else, she is very afraid of giving a wrong answer so that’s where I feel it.

But if she comes out and confessed anything still hidden, that’s trickle truth. But if she doesn’t tell that’s lying. it doesn’t leave room for anything else. There would need to be a boundary in place that was flexible enough that she can still come forward?

My recommendation is both of you do you Ic a little while, let her do her digging, and then at some future date perhaps the infidelity specialist can help her disclose the rest, if there is a rest. Then you draw that line in the sand? No idea. It’s above my pay grade. I just feel like there needs to be room for blue to get the disclosure he wants and that would be more trickle truth.

5bluedrops post #91:

Shes not slippery. Shes just scared.

Yeah buddy you aint the first BH to come on here and say this. You aren't the first BH to come on here and defend his WW's efforts that he later sees are very subpar. 'She can't give me the truth I need because she is scared.' We hear that a lot on here!

Who knows how this will play out. But you would be wise to realize that you just may be FOOLING yourself.

I am not sure about this part. Let’s say there is more to know, it feels like that there is. I don’t know what that means but for sure as I have said she is definitely more worried about his reaction sometimes than anything else, she is very afraid of giving a wrong answer so that’s where I feel it.

From my own experience, I was able to bring myself to celebrate when my wife told me new details that came to her after happening to drive past a park that she met POSOM at. That is not what I mean. I can accept a wayward has imperfect memory. I can even somewhat accept the self delusion and having to unravel that. But there is no acceptable excuse for intentional lying, certainly not at this stage, regardless of her fears. I suspect we don’t disagree there.

So that means that I think 5BD should ask for the timeline. Ask for it to be true and complete. Use that to feed his house of cards. If it comes out that she was lying on that, I recommend a hard stop. He will have to use his judgment on whether future learnings actually fall into the "poor memory" or "self reflection" bucket. But I would remiss after my experience to warn heavily against allowing an unending parade of trickle truth. I miss HellFire’s unambiguous labeling of it as abuse. It truly is.