SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I kept a condom in my wallet for a long time, hoping I’d need it.

Never did, though.

It got tattered and I tossed it.

Then, when the day finally came that I needed it, didn’t have it.

My early sexual history is one bungle after the other.

Some people want to be young again. Not me.

And maybe not 5bd’s WW. It’s certainly best to get done bungling before you get married.

I continued to bungle after I got married, but didn’t cheat.

But, maybe I just never got the right "tap."

There, but for the grace of God, go I.

Ink- I don’t disagree. Trickle truth is abusive.

Thanks for the clarification. There does need to be digging and she does need to come out if there are any intentional lies.

I think the process of unwinding and remembering like you describe is going to need a bit of time. If she engages that process it does take time to have epiphanies especially not just because the length of time that passed. But because the difference of how she thought at 24 could be realistically different at 34. It’s hard to go back and address an old mindset that you have left hidden and undiscussed for 11 years.

I think the best thing for now is really for them both to take a deep breath and do a bit of individual healing.

I will be interested in what progress the infidelity specialist might make with her. I know we had an instance here years ago with a member called Captain Roger’s, and personally I had written them off they had been at it four years and she was no closer to being vulnerable towards him. It was complicated for him to divorce as they had something like 8 kids. But they were in house separated. The specialist worked wonders with her that I never thought would happen. I know you feel jaded towards therapy, but sometimes the ones that specialize can be very good. Expensive though.

—-

Blue drops- you mention the email addresses. What is her explanation of why she has so many and some of them being so recent? That would bother me.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:27 PM, Wednesday, March 26th]

Hikingout,

As you have surmised, my wife is high strung, emotional, sensitive. She didnt pass the polygraph by activating her sociopath powers.

A few theories;

Either she believed she wasnt lying, the polygrapher is bunk, or there is some exotic compartmentalization/dissociation at play.

I cant even ascribe probabilities to which is most likely.

The return of the long expired condoms to the box instead of the trash is a mystery. The morning after discussions and her admissions, I asked why not trash them? She threw her arms up in the air in frustration and called herself stupid as if shed never considered it.

She wasnt thinking clearly. I think it was divine intervention. A god thing.

The email addresses bother me. In 2020, she was made supervisory at the club, responsible for scheduling employees and inventory. In 2022, she was the food and beverage director, responsible for hiring as well. She claims these emails were used to create throwaway social media profiles to check on her subordinates for when they called out sick without tipping them off, among other things.

She admits the earliest ones may have been used for infidelity but cant confirm. She cleaned her regular email out in 2014 when I discovered the texts, thats probably when she started using a throwaway.

She neglected one in her regular email; a memo she sent herself in june, obvious discussions with J by context. Stuff about liking her for more than her body, calling her sexy, one more day on and then a fun day off, him saying she isnt allowed to be off when he has to be at work, hire him to keep the boys off of her, why arent you here cuddling, etc.

The only secret emails I could access were totally cleaned out, so something is wrong there. But its dust, so…..

Ink,

I do see the point about it being abusive to come to celebrate learning the next destructive tidbit. Felt a little of myself there for sure

I also see the dilemma of drawing a line punishing getting the full truth. It sucks. Too many binds.

Im gonna develop a plan with this therapist, she seems to have an idea. Im hoping its not deep breaths.

Wbfa,

Im aware Im not the first, and Im aware of the risk of self delusion on the front, back, and middle.

Just gonna take things day by day in a calm, measured, data dependent manner with an open mind towards better than expected outcomes.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 5:33 PM, Wednesday, March 26th]

A few theories;

Either she believed she wasnt lying, the polygrapher is bunk, or there is some exotic compartmentalization/dissociation at play.

I cant even ascribe probabilities to which is most likely.

Yeah I would be of no help there either. You do not mention her telling the truth is a possibility. Is that just an oversight or no part of you believe that as a possibility?

The return of the long expired condoms to the box instead of the trash is a mystery. The morning after discussions and her admissions, I asked why not trash them? She threw her arms up in the air in frustration and called herself stupid as if shed never considered it.

She wasnt thinking clearly. I think it was divine intervention. A god thing.

Usually when people are being devious or sneaky they are a lot more intentional. Not saying I know the truth, I obviously do not. When o wanted to hide things from my husband I was good at it. The possibility exists she thought you wouldn’t notice but if it was truly mindless it’s hard to discern.

The email addresses bother me. In 2020, she was made supervisory at the club, responsible for scheduling employees and inventory. In 2022, she was the food and beverage director, responsible for hiring as well. She claims these emails were used to create throwaway social media profiles to check on her subordinates for when they called out sick without tipping them off, among other things.

She admits the earliest ones may have been used for infidelity but cant confirm. She cleaned her regular email out in 2014 when I discovered the texts, thats probably when she started using a throwaway.

Hmm. I have done that for work. Again plausible. Usually I used the same one but now a days they put you in Facebook jail and so y oh have to create new ones. We actually have been in meetings to decide how to deal with that.

However, I don’t remember being concerned with deleting mail, but who knows?

Aw you saying she still works where she did in 2014? Do you feel that has an impact on your ability to heal? Being in the same environment?

She left in 2022. It was workplace bullying. When she became salaried, her pay exceeded a former supervisors with whom she had a good relationship. That supervisor put a target on her back, ruined her reputation anyway she could, attained supervisorship over her again, and began listing every mistake any subordinate of Ww made, as a reflection on her quality as a leader. Then it came to a head 2 days before Wws scheduled vacation. (3 way ambush meeting with HR)

She countered by resigning when she came back from vacation, effective immediately, got the next job that same day. 30 fewer hours a week, same takehome pay.

I was so proud.

Its possible she told the truth, passed the test in earnest, and I have a hard time admitting that possibility because it would make all this circumstantial evidence, smoking red flags just unlucky coincidences, and the additional discomfort she is going through a bit of a war crime.

I dont think thats the case, but I will reluctantly admit, its possible.

The condoms returning was hiding. She put em back, stuck the box of condoms in another box at the back of the drawer, and started piling her bras up in front of them fairly soon after I showed her the condom in that drawer I didnt recognize. That drawers role was unchanged since the beginning of our relationship till only a few months ago.

My attention kept returning to why she started using it for that, why did she feel the need to move the box of condoms to inside the sex toy box? When I pulled em out and counted, I knew. Compared against my previous count, 3 high, one of which didnt even belong to that box, clearly worn from being stored in clothing.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 6:12 PM, Wednesday, March 26th]

Its possible she told the truth, passed the test in earnest, and I have a hard time admitting that possibility because it would make all this circumstantial evidence, smoking red flags just unlucky coincidences, and the additional discomfort she is going through a bit of a war crime.

I don’t think you should think about it as a war crime.

First, you distrust her for reasons she gave you.

Second, she really hasn’t examined herself enough at this point to make you trust her. I think she has just hoped it would all go away. Which is often typical in these scenarios.

Also there is a lot of things that do not add up, everyone can agree with that. What isn’t known is if that points at things that were outside the poly or if it makes it invalid.

I dont think thats the case

That’s what I wanted to know. It’s like I know if it’s a right or wrong position, I was just checking in where you were with it.

The condoms returning was hiding. She put em back, stuck the box of condoms in another box at the back of the drawer, and started piling her bras up in front of them fairly soon after I showed her the condom in that drawer I didnt recognize. That drawers role was unchanged since the beginning of our relationship till only a few months ago.

My attention kept returning to why she started using it for that, why did she feel the need to move the box of condoms to inside the sex toy box? When I pulled em out and counted, I knew. Compared against my previous count, 3 high, one of which didnt even belong to that box, clearly worn from being stored in clothing.

Thanks for clarifying that. I will now stop poking holes about that. Now that I have spoken with her I am just naturally more curious about the details but I don’t have any recommendations past what’s already been stated.

Edited to add:

the polygrapher is bunk, o

She didn’t know that though, lots of times people get super panicked and they give a parking lot confession.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:26 PM, Wednesday, March 26th]

If I may add, there are times when my behavior looks like a heaping mountain of smoking red flags, but in all actuality they're just really unfortunately-timed coincidences that added up look like red flags even when they weren't. It's a horrifying position to be in, because one party is convinced the other is guilty, and the accused partner has no recourse.

I'm not saying that's what this is. I'm just conceding that it's possible.

Icedover,

I think theres some danger of that. Me being high alert and emotional isnt conducive to objective fact finding or constructive for how I relate to her. Im trying to be more open so she can. I think its important, and I wont be surprised if some things are dead ends.

An interesting facet about all this; I lost trust from it. But, because Ww knew she wasnt faithful, I never had her trust, despite the love and attachment. This realization helps me to understand so many things I didnt get about how she related to me before I knew. Its part of the downstream consequences of undisclosed, still closeted infidelity. Even in hiding, it hinders intimacy and pairbonding.

And its part and parcel to why she doesnt feel safe to be completely seen by me. Id love to undo that, but obviously its going to come later down the line.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 7:31 PM, Wednesday, March 26th]

Moving forward is really a hard thing to do when you don’t have a solid grasp of what really went on. I know I could not make any progress with myself or a marriage if I knew I was still being lied to, regardless of why those lies were being told.
I don’t think you are in any kind of hyper state or searching for some perceived truth that isn’t there. If I take all the pieces of info you’ve posted regarding just the condoms, I’d bet my house there’s more.

I wish for you that it was just a dumb mistake, but I’m sorry, I see calculated deception. Not necessarily smart deception, more like panicked deception.
Still though, if you want to be there, patience and let things unfold.

An interesting facet about all this; I lost trust from it. But, because Ww knew she wasnt faithful, I never had her trust, despite the love and attachment.

Just clarifying: are you saying that because of how you've reacted to being betrayed that you WW doesn't trust you?

No, Im saying she didnt trust me Because she was cheating. Didnt trust I wouldnt do the same given the chances she had, ergo all the freaking out about waitresses and random women in grocery aisles.

Didnt trust me to stay if I knew, didnt trust me to have a moment alone at home without her.

Didnt trust me to drink.

Cause she knew she wasnt trustworthy to our relationship in much those same situations.

Edit; it seems on reflection, some of that was there from the earliest, pre cheating days. Its harder to understand in that context. Hmm maybe im not onto anything here.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 8:11 PM, Wednesday, March 26th]

No, you’re on to something. Projection.
Basically she was vocalizing what she would be doing in your shoes. Common stuff with cheaters.
That buddy whose girlfriend is insanely jealous and won’t let him do anything without her? It’s always a pretty high chance she’s off doing all the things she accuses him of.

Didnt trust me to stay if I knew

This occurred to me yesterday, basically it was during an exchange in which she stated her fears in reading what people say to you in the forum.

However, when I said "your husband will think for himself" and she agreed.

I will say that in the past when we have both the ws and ba there have been many ws who freak completely out and think that every post they seem as negative against them is another nail in the coffin. Their spiraling was intense. I can understand that, because I used to freak out when bs would make threads about venting about cheaters in general. Her making this statement tells me while she does feel insecure about her future she can extend enough trust that we aren’t seeing all this acting out. A lot of ws complain about their spouses being here, because they see it as everyone standing around with pitchforks, but it’s all fear based.

I agree with oh it’s you. People who have been unfaithful project. I feel in her case it’s more her overall insecurities over her past actions. You will have to ask her but my feeling is probablyfor the past 11 years she has feared being left over this. And maybe she always feared you would leave her so it was there from the beginning. And now that fear is very very big, much bigger than what I had to experience when I confessed after holding it in for two months. I have to say that was the most terrifying thing I have ever done and I am getting up there in age. I can’t imagine how big it’s gotten over a decade.

I would read every scenario on here where the bh was hiding his feelings from his ww. It still bothers me sometimes, but not like it once did. When I found out that he was cheating on me, it was like having every fear confirmed.

This is what I believe to be true in most ws scenarios (and in relationships in general):

Everything is a reflection of our relationship with ourselves.

If you feel unlovable it will be hard to believe someone loves you.

If you feel untrustworthy, you will not trust others.

If you are critical of yourself you will be critical of others.

A lot of the work a ws does to successfully redeem themselves starts with their relationship with themselves. If we can fix that, we will show up differently in our relationships. That’s her job and her work.

Your job and work is the same, and it will lend itself to your boundaries, finding ways to soothe yourself to find peace, commanding more respect and love.

Trying to reconcile is tricky because sometimes one person heals and the other doesn’t. That’s why you need to work on you and she work on her. If you can fix the parts then you can fix the whole.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:48 PM, Wednesday, March 26th]

My wife didn’t trust me either. I take that to be a combination of projection and her resentments. It was utterly poisonous to our R attempt. It kept her held back, always acting like the affair was small potatoes compared to her resentments long held against me. I haven’t heard the resentment piece come thru for you, but it’s a common theme here and one to watch out for. Anything that prevents a wayward from taking a deeply penitent posture is a problem for R.

"Occam’s Razor" posits that the simplest explanation is usually the correct explanation.

Usually.

The simplest explanation for WW passing the polygraph is not that she had years of CIA training, or that she is pathological, or that they stumbled on a rogue polygrapher.

The simplest explanation is that she was telling the truth.

But, "Usually."

I take your point, Fpp, but I can think of other ways to apply the razor as well.

Simplicity seems to be in rather short supply on the whole, besides.

And certainty.

On the plus side, shes being really good to me and we have the day off together tomorrow.

What am I specifically missing in the BS heals itself philosophy?
I imagine its a combination of IC, reliance on support, self care, self reliance, and boundary work + time. Is there some big piece Ive left out?

I feel Im being advised to turn my focus inward vs external focus on her behavior, but discussing the infidelity is definitely me servicing my need for support and addressing the injury. Ill freely admit its easier to point and say, "you did this" rather than point inwards and say, " I need to do this".

What am I specifically missing in the BS heals itself philosophy?
I imagine its a combination of IC, reliance on support, self care, self reliance, and boundary work + time. Is there some big piece Ive left out?

I feel Im being advised to turn my focus inward vs external focus on her behavior, but discussing the infidelity is definitely me servicing my need for support and addressing the injury.

An excellent question. Maybe imagine the scenario that you only discovered the affair after you WW passed away, or that she ran off with an AP and refused to ever talk to you again to give you information about the A. You would still feel the trauma and pain and you would still need to heal. That is what entirely focusing on yourself looks like, IMO.

In your case, she is around, and she is at least giving you some answers to questions. But in the circumstances you are in, where you don’t believe her and she very well may be lying to you, you very well may be doing more harm than good. So you have to heal, and she has to heal, so that the disclosure process can actually be reconciling. Both of you have to do this well enough for the marriage to recover. There are many harmful ways to approach it, and it seems like a pretty narrow window of helpful ways. Sensible adults not driven by fear and trauma are more likely to find the narrow path, IMO.

My last swing at this.

I don’t think you’re ever going to get the answers you want.

But I think you want to stay with her, and I think she wants to stay with you. That’s a good start. Lots of people never get that far.

So you have to decide if you can live with the answers you have, with what you believe to be the truth.

If so, then somehow you two have to put this behind you, and start afresh.

Might she cheat on you in the future? She might.

Might she dump you in the future? She might.

But if you want love you can be certain of, loyalty you can be certain of, get a dog.

Human beings are risky.

But a game you’re certain of winning isn’t really fun to play, is it?

Whatever you do, best wishes.

[This message edited by Formerpeopleperson at 10:53 PM, Wednesday, March 26th]

FPP- I understand your perspective on what you are trying to say.

However, lots of people do end up getting the truth. It happens more than you might think. I have seen it play out in this board many times.

I do think right now they both want reconciliation. But that was true for Inkhulk at one point in time. Everyone has a different threshold they can live with on that.

I know you you have said you would not recommend reconciliation to your child because what you have experienced. But it doesn’t sound like you went through the process of reconciliation, more that you moved forward with staying married.

I am not saying that was wrong or that you have done anything that you wouldn’t do again, but it’s not for everyone.

Even if we were to fully assume the lie detector test was accurate, the questions cover a very narrow swath of possibilities. There is a lot of self protection still happening, she is obviously terrified to make the wrong move or say the wrong thing.

What you may not realize is that until she feels open and vulnerable to him, until she has come out of hiding and finds her light, she too will not have peace. It will always interfere with their ability to be as close to each other as possible. We can not just stay in a place if who the other person wishes us to be, or say answers that are palatable. There is nothing to build on in those cases.

At this point bluedrops is not ready to come to a conclusion. He has a process he will need to go through before the outcome of the marriage can be decided. It’s better he does as Inkhulk has advised him, take a step back find focus on what he can do to heal and to step into his own power. Once he does that, he may still decide to move forward with the marriage if she is able to greet him with a more healed version of herself.

If they bury it now and stay married, I don’t think either of them are going to come to full peace on the situation. She will still hide in her shame and he will always wonder if she truly loves him and what does he not know?

So for now instead of being glued to one outcome over the other, it’s better that we just keep helping each of them heal individually.

What am I specifically missing in the BS heals itself philosophy?
I imagine its a combination of IC, reliance on support, self care, self reliance, and boundary work + time. Is there some big piece Ive left out?

I feel Im being advised to turn my focus inward vs external focus on her behavior, but discussing the infidelity is definitely me servicing my need for support and addressing the injury. Ill freely admit its easier to point and say, "you did this" rather than point inwards and say, " I need to do this".

Most of what you've written about is stuff you want to be done to you.

In healing the BS, the BS is the one who does what needs to be done. It's active, not passive.

I read your posts to say you think that thinking will get you out of this. It won't. You have to put your thinking into service for your feelings. Feelings always trump thinking, but never moreso than when dealing with betrayal.

You need to process your grief, fear, anger, shame, whatever out of your body. You can do that only by being in touch with your feelings. That means feeling them, and feeling is not an intellectual activity.

IC can help, but not because IC is a necessary action. IC helps when it's used to effect change in oneself.

Support from friends helps only when the support helps one defeat the self-talk that one uses to attack oneself.

You need to set boundaries for yourself. You do some of that well. You know you have to make your own decisions, for example. Some boundary setting ... maybe not so much.

You need to be ruthlessly honest with yourself. You need to define what you want and need from other people, especially from your W, and what you want to give, especially to your W. You need to be honest about your own response to events.

You say you don't consider potential aps to be aps without proof, but you don't believe your W is telling you the truth despite the evidence. Is that not a contradiction? For the answer(s0, go into your feelings.

Those are just some of the ways a person heals themself.