SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hikingout,

I really appreciate you giving me support over here, and giving my wife support on the wayward side. You are quite wise. I had hoped for almost a year my wife could go and find somewhere to share and people whose life experiences she might benefit from.

She seemed to think I resented her receiving that. I dont. Im truly grateful.

I do know that you don’t resent it. I told her that. She has distorted thinking due to her shame. I recognize it because I have been there. She really needs to see that the punishing herself is holding her back, and it’s hard right now for her to see that. I will try and help her as long as she seeks it. I find her to be pretty much the way you have described, full of fear and self-loathing. I identify with it.

Best to you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:05 PM, Thursday, March 20th]

From what I’ve read, and granted, I’m not in your particular shoes, but if I were and I was not already dead set on divorce, I’d probably relax a little and give some patience at this time. Yeah, pretty vague and generic advice.

I dont feel like a particularly fast learner, kind of you to say, but the timeframes suggest otherwise!

Faster than me, anyway

Im a stubborn man. I dont give up easily, nor am I easily convinced. These things are assets and liability both in this situation. I like to think that I am good with reasoning through problems, but the truth is I get bound up in my biases, desired outcomes, minutia, and so on etc. So a little help from people less involved but with related experience goes a long way.

We would be friends, for sure.

That said, in the end, I hope to listen well but decide things for myself.

This is best case scenario for an Internet forum. Keep on keeping on.

Happy friday, everyone. Another week survived.

Im teething on some trepidations, and I figure that if something is worth stewing on, its worth talking about.

With Ww on the forums, I feel a shy tendency in me about the bravery with which Ive shared, well, multiple things. I dont know why, exactly. We've got anonymity, for one thing. For another, shes been following my posting on here since my JFO thread.

I feel like I havent done my best due diligence at times before talking about certain things without informing her Im going to. I dont want to undermine her feeling safe to open up, she struggles with it so, and I dont want her to ever come away with the feeling that Im using a mob to manipulate her, or beat her about with any form of public embarrassment.

At the same time, I want to keep how freely Ive felt I could emote and convey concepts here, its been valuable. She hasnt asked me to tone it down or anything, I just sense that she feels put upon and I want it understood that Im not trying to "get even" or whatever when it gets uncomfortable.

Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

It’s a difficult dynamic that I have watched a few people do well with over the years and a few do worse. Usually the problem in the past is people will go read her stuff and then come back and try to discuss it with you - like using her post to fuel the fire of their own outrage. So far not one person has done that, but I think that part you should shut down as it’s wildly inflaming and unproductive.

As for you sharing what you want, I think you should just bravely continue. Tempering yourself for what she can and can’t handle doesn’t serve you. You deserve help too. I do get a sense she might agree with me on that, but you should talk to her.

I can see the concern about talking to her about it first, but the two of you can come to an agreement on that. She is readily admitting she wished she did better in your conversation yesterday. She knows that was an issue and is an ongoing issue and if that’s what you need to talk about then I think you do it. Sometimes the response you get may help her. Sometimes they may cause her to spiral.

The day will come where she fails at something miserably. Or she remembers something and then there is question if it’s trickle truth or just suppressed memories bubbling up. Know that failure is part of the process, and she will have to be mature enough to realize this is an anonymous forum, people do not know her, and in some cases are wildly projecting their own experiences. And it’s impossible for us to know for a fact if it’s trickle truth or supressed memories.

I will say I was here and got flames many times in her state. I became pretty resilient to it. It took a lot of time, but it was also good for my empathy- I could see my husband in some of those posts.

I personally think both of your should proceed as normal but you two should discuss the strategies that work for you. Holding back your pain though because she can’t handle it doesn’t seem fair to you. At the same time I know the larger concern about what people might say in response. You can always decide if they cross the line and respectfully ask them to refrain. This ain’t the Salem witch trials, and if it becomes that, there are moderators and members that will help you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:20 PM, Friday, March 21st]

You show your quality in continuing to consider her thru it all.

My wife never posted, but she knew about SI from the beginning. She despised it, didn’t want me posting. I feel that one of the best thing I ever did was to choose to continue to authentically post here regardless of her wishes. That was me choosing me. It was immensely beneficial to me.

I recommend that you post freely. Don’t filter yourself. Don’t hold yourself to a standard of perfection. You can’t be expected to be 100% accurate about things, and there is no need to be perfect on an anonymous Internet forum. Post what you think and feel in the moment. I found that to be immensely therapeutic. You can consider making an agreement with your wife that you stay out of each other’s threads.

I will say that I admire that she is posting and the steps she has taken so far. I prefer to not cross pollinate for the reasons that hikingout discussed, I’d rather just be a support to you like any other BS. But it is a twist on things to have her posting, I would have really appreciated if mine had.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 7:12 PM, Friday, March 21st]

5bluedrops,

I understand the concerns of both posting here. It's a bit like the difference between going to marital counseling and individual counseling. I would consider my words more carefully in marital counseling and sometimes censor myself to what I thought was helpful to us both. From a viewpoint on the other side, it's helpful to read both parties thoughts. I'm just not sure it's as helpful to the couples that do that.

hikingout, I understand the power dynamics can be different between young adults and older people in the workplace. As a woman in a male dominated field, I've experienced my share of sexual harassment. Eww. Even saying my share is weird and disgusting. I have a young adult child near 24 yrs old and can also sympathize that they can be emotionally vulnerable.

However, 5bluedrops' wife had many opportunities to turn toward her husband and her marriage instead of away. It doesn't sound like she felt forced to be in the golf cart hostess job. She could have approached her husband about taking a waitress job or something similar. I just don't see her as a victim.

And really, I'm sorry for this below. It's probably one of the saddest stories I've read here. You are a good and kind person 5bluedrops.

Not quite. One of the earliest red flags, way back in 2014, was one of my clearest memories. Ww and I were eating dinner and drinking at a pub, when this AP and his band of scamps came in and sat down beside us. We hung out with them for a bit until a bachelorette party came to the bar. AP and his friends got up from hanging out with us and adopted the bachelorette party instead.

Ww began to cry. I paid for our food and drinks (and APs drink) and took her home. She couldnt explain herself. In the car, the sobbing was inconsolable. I spent the rest of the night trying to comfort her. I did not understand. I didnt want to. I chalked it up to Ww being sensitive. I theorized it was something Id done.

However, 5bluedrops' wife had many opportunities to turn toward her husband and her marriage instead of away. It doesn't sound like she felt forced to be in the golf cart hostess job. She could have approached her husband about taking a waitress job or something similar. I just don't see her as a victim.

Neither do I.

In fact in my post I said she doesn’t seem to be claiming non-consent. And in my post to her I pointed out that even if there was a dynamic it didn’t bother her from continuing hanging out with him.

To be clear, the reason I affirmed his feelings about that is because he was there. He was around them. He had an experience where one of them put the moves in front of her.

I validated his feelings about that because as a young man he likely didn’t know what to do with that and he probably feels regret. He probably in some ways experienced some of that dynamic with her.

I was affirming he should not feel that regret. That’s why I said they can have a power dynamic and his wife can still be responsible - the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

I too had a power dynamic in my affair, but it’s not the reason I had an affair. I hope that clears it up.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:41 PM, Friday, March 21st]

I apologize hikingout. I have mis-read or misunderstood your response. i do understand the power differential and why any person would be sympathetic to that.

Im proud of her for posting. It took a lot of balls to read what she read and show up here. It means alot to me that she did that. Shes a tough girl.

Id like to talk a bit about the alcohol issue. Ive written a bit in the past. But to be honest, Ive tried to make my feelings come out for 6 iterations since I got home and none of them did what I need to do any justice.

Instead, Ill share something I wrote previously that has an abridged version, but also the whole shebang.

Our previous therapist interrupted me in the middle of me going around in circles about the cheating I knew about and the reasons why I thought there was more and so on to say that in all the time I had spoken, I hadnt once given Ww an actionable need. She made a point. That weekend, I deep dived my hurt And came up with this list.

The therapist wasnt impressed, we went over it, and she looked at Ww and said

"four words. Understanding, honesty, communication, engagement. Thats all his list needs to say"

What a bitch.

I disagree, this list captures the core injuries for me. It might not be comprehensive but its personal and real and I made myself into a filet-o-fish by writing it.

what I need.

1. I need a better understanding about the period of infidelity. If more things happened than I know about, I need to know them. I need you to want me to have that understanding, as you understand it, distinct from giving me the minimum additional information you have to admit to, distinct from rewriting the events and how you felt about them to minimize/downplay, distinct from selective remembering.

2. I need to feel respected, restoration of honor, dignity

3. Genuine remorse, distinct from self pity, distinct from grief to have been discovered,distinct from self hatred, not a quick checking off of a list of conditions to fulfill the requirements of reconciliation.

4. I need what I have gone through and lost as a result of the infidelity to be empathically understood, downstream consequences accounted for so I can process them.

5. I need answers for and relief from controlling and jealous behaviors that preceded the infidelity and still continue. The irony is extremely cruel in retrospect to the infidelity.

6. I need justice. Not retributive justice, not a punishment, but restorative justice. Behavior of your own initiative to do right by me, to repair our relationship, to make amends.

7. I need to feel secure that you have stopped and wont engage in secretive romantic or sexual arrangements.

8. I need to resolve/accept the discrepancy between the relationship I thought we had with the relationship that is true.

9. I need you to be a safe partner for me to communicate my needs, feelings, and thoughts to.

10. I need time to be able to come to accept the things that occurred.

11. I need to know why this happened.

12. I need to feel secure that I wasnt settled for because of my safety and devotion, that you didnt choose me to use me

13. I need to resolve feeling rejected for offering to bring men into our bedroom for you, which you did not desire, understand or like conceptually, yet the infidelity transpired.

14. I need your help to resolve hurt about alcohol use, tobacco use, control/limitation, didnt want to do with me, didnt want me to do, enjoyed freely with infidelity participants

15. I need your help to resolve anger and hurt about public humiliation, aided, made excuses for and protected people who insulted and demeaned me, misrepresented people you understood as my enemies to me as friends, performed sex acts with people who ridiculed me, conspired with them to have me live a lie. Shared my personal secrets and information given in trust and love with them.

16. I need to rebuild my self respect. Create/enforce/protect boundaries with others, take care of myself, create and pursue own goals.

17. I need to make myself a priority, to stop living for other people. Stop conceding my boundaries

18. I need to stop feeling sorry for myself

19. I need self reliance for my pain, discomfort, anger, and sadness.

20. I need to build behaviors and traits that strengthen and empower me

I like your list. Some of that can only come from her; some can only come from you. I encourage you to be really clear on which is which.

The therapist wasnt impressed, we went over it, and she looked at Ww and said
"four words. Understanding, honesty, communication, engagement. Thats all his list needs to say"

It’s fuckery like this that has made me lose respect for the therapist profession. I had terrible experiences with MC’s, things like this. Others report getting immense value from theirs. It is typically recommended not to engage in MC immediately. One reason is that the BS can be reinjured by such nonsense. Another is that neither party is emotionally healthy enough to work on the relationship. Each needs to heal individually. But if you are going to do MC, I recommend switching once you hear bullshit like this come out of their mouth. Roll the dice and hope to find one of the good ones.

Yeah, I have alot of things in here that I have to do.

Youll notice that the things that are personal growth and about making big internal changes are super generalized and glossed over relative to the infidelity related bits, as Ive not as well formed concepts of what I need to do to get there
More of a lifelong effort of doing a bit better each time, really.

I mean, ultimately, my healing from all of it is my responsibility eventually no matter what she does.

Im kind of bitter about that.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 11:45 PM, Friday, March 21st]

No apology needed kitchen. Other people asked me about that in PMs and I am glad I could clear it up.

I mean, ultimately, my healing from all of it is my responsibility eventually no matter what she does.

Yes, it is.

Im kind of bitter about that.

And you have every right to be.

I had a list of six things I needed from my wife if we were going to R. I think they map reasonably well to what you wrote here. (Certainly not just four fucking words ). That list also helped me to clarify what I wanted in any romantic relationship, so now that I’m on the prowl it was still a worthwhile exercise.

I think that is a reasonable, well thought out, understandable list.

The therapist was very rude and insensitive. It’s very clear.

I am not defending the therapist, but I think she likely knew your wife would be overwhelmed and unable to give you all these things at once. It’s a great master list, it describes what I believe it takes to reconcile, but reconciling takes many years and happens in stages. The words the therapist likely gave her are cue words to make it more manageable for her to remember.

The more fearful and overwhelmed she is the more impossible the tasks feel to her. The therapist should have said that instead.

And I think like ink said that it would be good to put separation on some of this to differentiate responsibilities. It’s going to take some time for your wife to understand where you begin and she ends because when she describes her feelings they are all enmeshed with yours. She needs to let go of her fear that is causing her to want to react in order to control. It seems like that’s dawning on her.

And it’s perfectly understandable that you are bitter about having to heal. This shit is exhausting and this as been a long road already. Regardless of your relationship outcome or what happens as you move through this I just want you to know you can heal.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:22 AM, Saturday, March 22nd]

You’re telling us you gave the therapist that 20 point list and they weren’t impressed? And instead brought up 4 Mr. Roger’s level requirements instead?
I think everyone here would be impressed with the emotional depth and understanding required to come up with that list. Fuck that counselor!

It’s hard to find a good one. I mean, the schooling required is about as hard as getting a real estate license. So don’t feel bad if you have to go through 5-10 different ones to find one who actually knows what they’re doing. Kinda like running through a supermarket looking for a nuclear physicist. Unlikely, but sooner or later there will be one there picking up their coco puffs.

Here's another view.

There isn't much your WS can do to help you heal. That's work that only you can do. I think hiking wrote earlier:

BS heals BS.

WS heals WS.

Together BS and WS can heal the M.

Keep your healing and your M's healing separate. They don't go together. You can't R unless you get on your healing path, but you can get on your healing path without R.

*****

You can help each other heal, as long as you realize you can't read each other's minds. You probably can't even read each other's non-verbal communications for months after d-day.

You can hinder each other's healing.

But you heal you, and she heals her.

*****

If you can't say what you want so a 6 year old can understand it, you don't understand what you want yourself, and it's probably wise to seek help to formulate your wants.

And you can't track 20 wants anyway - you need to simplify.

If you reported the therapists' words exactly ('not impressed'), I find fault in her wording. I find fault in her summary, since the words are so abstract. I'm very sorry she miscommunicated.

But if her point was that you needed to make your wants actionable, I agree with the principle - but I think the therapist's job is to help you make the list simple, exhaustive, and actionable, not to take your words and make them even more abstract and non-actionable.

*****

IMO, your list was aimed at staying together. I'm all for R when both parties do the work, but R is not the only option.

The choice is between getting to your new life in a healthy way or an unhealthy way. Start with figuring out what you want. If you really want D, any effort to R is a waste of time and energy.

*****

What will you do to understand your W's A? How will you know you've succeeded or not?

How will you know your W has met your requirements? You may think the answer is, 'I'll feel safe.' It isn't. You decide to feel safe or unsafe for your own reasons.

My reco is to think instead about the behaviors your W can adopt that will demonstrate she's a good candidate for R. What are you looking for from your W? That's what you need to figure out and ask for.

*****

IMO, and in the opinions of many therapists, it's best to ask for what you want.

My response to 'I need...' is 'Thank you for sharing.' My response to 'Will you help ____?' is 'Yes' or 'No' or 'not just now' or 'If I do, what will you do for me?'

The benefit of asking is that the responses make it easy to tally the yeses, noes, maybes, etc. Then you can decide if the ratio of yeses to other answers mean you're a good fit or not.

My reco is: ask explicitly for what you want. I know it's counter-intuitive, but it really works to make your life better.

*****

Another reco: Work with your W to decide how you'll use SI.

My personal approach was that my W stuck to the WS forum at first with maybe infrequent forays into R. I stuck to G and R.

We agreed not to read each other's threads, so W ignored any thread I started in R. That left G for my use in working out problems. That meant, of course, that we had to look at the author of every topic we read.

We also agreed not to read each other's posts, although I violated that principle from time to time because I found it hard to remember to look at each post's author before reading it. I assume my W did, too.

If we DID read the other's posts, what we read could not be replied to on SI. If what we read caused a problem between us, we worked the problem out at home or in MC sessions, not in flame wars on SI.

Also, you can use your thoughts about posting to identify issues - and then you can go directly to working on the issue with your W.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:58 PM, Saturday, March 22nd]

Sisoon,

Thanks.

Im not doing myself any favors. Ive got to let go of some things Im clinging onto to heal. And a big one is the desire to change someone elses mind and actions. I cant control her. I cant make the outcome of her choices line up with my wants and needs. My ghost only drives this body. This brain.
This one life is my golden shot and Im spending it rolling in shit. Gotta stop.

I panicked this morning, after Ww went to work.

I checked her ipad.
The history and website data is totally blank. It wasnt a week or so ago. It was updated recently. Maybe thats why. Maybe she did something. She says she didnt. I cant know, and I cant change it either way.

Just gotta stop.
Its a beautiful day. Im going to change my oil and scalp my lawn. Thats something I can change. And neglecting those things for worrying about whats done would be a shame.

Same month, we were socializing with some of her coworkers at a different members(H) house. We were intoxicated and I was waiting out my BAC to feel safe to drive home. After her coworkers left, My wife, H, and I remained in his home. Eventually, he grabbed my wife from behind, hands on breasts and began to kiss her neck. They were both staring at me. She did nothing to stop him. I paced the room for a few seconds, mulling over attacking a bigger man in his own home. Calmed down, grabbed her hand and dragged her out of there. "Why didnt you stop him, say no, come over to me, anything?" I asked. "I froze", she replied.

Do you think your reaction to the above situation has anything to do with what you're currently experiencing? Could be the AP and your then girlfriend interrupted your pacing as being ok with the actions they were taking.

Peace

Rocko,

I dont count H as an AP. I suppose Im only counting people whom I know about secret sexual activity happening behind my back. Hes just some fucker who made a pass, right in my face. She didnt do anything to rebuff, so I couldnt really know if he might actually qualify as an AP.

H was a friend of P, the secondary AP mentioned above. He was always around, but Im not aware of additional instances involving him. I have toyed with the notion that he was warning me or showing me something. But I think he was just an arrogant asshole who knew about what was going on with P, and decided to try his hand in that moment.

Ive no reason to think anyone interpreted my hesitation to act as consent, or condonation, I was pretty clear.