SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi,
I think I’m having such a hard time getting out of my recent spiral because my intuition is telling g me I’m still being lied to. My IC agrees that I probably am, and then reminds me that I chose to reconcile and need to work on letting the truth go.

Have any of you done this successfully?

Right now I’m dwelling on the denial that they ever exchanged gifts. Besides sex toys - he did admit to that. But seriously? You’re fucking someone for four years who wants to be your wife and either she didn’t try to persuade you with sweet gifts or you don’t try to placate her with gifts? Come on, who believes that? Seriously- does that sound believable???

.

[This message edited by user4578 at 8:14 PM, Sunday, November 10th]

I don't buy it.

I exchange gifts with my friends and even acquaintances (say once a year) depending on relation/occasion.

No way he didn't buy her anything or receive anything as a gift.

It's possible he never got her any extravagant or memorable gifts, but nothing is super hard to believe.

It's possible he never got her any extravagant or memorable gifts, but nothing is super hard to believe.

I think This0is0Fine nailed it here. WH told me he never gave/received gifts. I never really believed this however, as time went on, to me it came down as what defines a gift.

I believe that they did not give any extravagant, memorable or even noteworthy gifts - can't have something mysteriously showing up at home that might lead to questions ya know...

BUT I do believe they may have done "insignificant" things. Show up at the hotel with favorite Starbucks order or food/drink treat. OR make sure a favorite shower gel, lotion, etc. was readily available in the hotel bathroom. OR just take each other to a favorite restaurant/club/area or something while on those out of town get aways. These things could be argued on if they really counted as a "gift" but I suppose that depends on what side of the infidelity fence you are on. Now, years out, I just assume these "insignificant" things happen and don't waste my time/effort/energy on the word salad of it all.

You guys are so smart.

I think this comes down to me trusting my intuition. I questioned if he was cheating because my intuition was telling me he was, but I fell for his lies and didn’t trust myself for years. I thought the gift thing is something tangible that I could test my intuition on - but yes, maybe it’s word salad. This is exactly what I meant - I don’t care if you just brought her favorite snack from the free cafe at work - if it was for her to make her happy then yes, that’s a gift. And I don’t believe for a second that they didn’t try to do this for each other, even if their motivations were different (hers to keep him, his to placate her- right like so I even believe that?)
I don’t think it would make a difference about ending the marriage, but maybe in the future it would be part of the bigger picture? And without that information then how can I make a good decision? And mostly, I want to know because I am testing my intuition.
Oxox you guys are the best

It’s also about how honest is he going to be with you and what your requirements are for R.
This may be minor stuff, but is he willing to be honest?

I don’t think the issue is the gifts.

It’s the fact you believe he’s lying. (BTW I think he is lying too). A multi year affair and no birthday gift? Come on - you weren’t born yesterday.

Here’s my situation and I hope it helps you.

The OW told me my H stayed at her apartment. I remember he had a business trip. Apparently he came home a day or two earlier than he told me and he was with her. I checked the tickets etc and it added up - he was with her. Now my H swears he didn’t stay at her apartment - he got a hotel.

I know he’s lying to cover himself b/c I think he believes I will or would have D him over it. Refuses to admit it to this day and I’m Never going to believe it.

I have no proof he got a hotel. Neither does he.

Not sure why he chooses to lie about that but it’s the one thing that does not add up. I chose to accept his lie b/c everything else he did after Dday was to take accountability and show true remorse. In 11 years since Dday I have not had to question him about anything.

Not sure why your H would lie about the gifts but maybe in his mind he thinks it would ruin more things for you. As if a multi year affair doesn’t ruin almost everything.

I will never understand cheater logic.

As others have said.....

Christmas and birthdays....there would have been something. I had a 3 month A and her birthday was in that and I felt almost compelled to do something....even though by that point I was planning an escape.

I think 4 years is a little mad to believe nothing was exchanged...even a letter is a gift or a card ffs...I got her a chocolate orange bar and she got me some chocolate back and whilst it id all low level stuff the sentiment is still there. Yeah I never bought her Jewellery or underwear etc the stuff many people may consider you get during an A but still it's the thought isnt it!

Good luck.

Funny thing is , this is still one thing in my gut screaming at me too… my H swears no gifts but like others have said, ordering her favorite beer and having it ready at the bar before she arrived.. was a gift. It’s the thought that counts.

I don’t think I’ll quiet this thought for a while because what I consider important or meaningful he has came to the conclusion it wasn’t. I’m sure if I asked him did he surprise her with a beer? With her favorite energy drink? I’m sure he would tell me yes. I just don’t care enough about it. I know why he did it and he knows why he did it and it’s disgusting to both of us now.

If he took her on a trip, if he bought her an outfit for the bedroom, things that were more pricey and took more thoughtfulness and he lied about it , I don’t know if I can forgive that. Not sure if that makes sense. I did find out he bought her a t shirt from our anniversary weekend when we went to a music festival and I carried it around all night and she got him one at the concert she went to that weekend … how freaking cute but that’s “love” .

I carried it around all night not knowing it was for her. That almost made me walk.

Surprisingly this was one of the last details to come out , he lied to me for months even lied to me over admitting he did cocaine… like others have said the cheaters logic makes no sense. I’m assuming he didn’t want to admit it because he lied to himself so much he actually believed it….
ETA
I think it also makes it hard for me to believe because I try to put logic behind it. I try to think about things he’s done for me and I really deep down think she wasn’t too bright and didn’t have standards (clearly) my H swears she was ok with the cheap red roof in hotel and sex in the woods , to me that is not believable because I wouldn’t do that. Not all people require gifts , sometimes the bar is low and honestly her bar had to have been in hell for her to tolerate sleeping with a married man and being told “I’ll contact you , don’t contact me” she actually listened.

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 2:58 AM, Thursday, October 10th]

My IC agrees that I probably am, and then reminds me that I chose to reconcile and need to work on letting the truth go.

Depending on the subtlety of what you IC was saying here, this is either horrible advice or sage. Forgive me for not giving random IC’s the benefit of the doubt based of my experiences with them.

If what she meant is you need to accept that you will never get every last detail of the A written down like a Tolstoy novel, then absolutely, totally correct.

BUT, if she is saying that because you chose to attempt to R that you need to accept obvious lies and ignore your screaming gut, that is atrocious advice. By choosing to not immediately D and try R, you are not committed to anything. You can stop R at any time, for any reason, and move on with your life. Having your bull shit meter flashing red in response to a wildly improbable answer is not something to just do a "suck it up, buttercup". You deserve peace. Being coerced to accept bullshit by a professional because you chose to try grace is awful and will not lead you to peace. Don’t stand for that.

Word salad or Lying by omission.

I would struggle with this as my husband chose to lie by omission.

In the early days I wouldn’t ask ‘Have you spoken to her?’ I would ask ‘have you had any form of communication with her? Verbal, written, electronic, semaphore or via carrier pigeon?’ He would object. I would remind him he struggled to recognise lying by omission is still lying.

So be very clear with how you ask. You shouldn’t have to be. If he admits ‘yes he took her a cupcake but that’s not really a gift’ you know you have a man who lies by omission. He thinks it wasn’t a gold necklace so it’s not ‘technically’ a gift. It wasn’t technically sex just oral. That text is not technically cheating ‘just smoke up my arse’. It’s how they defend their poor choices.

Lying to stop feeling shame, to protect you (that’s nonsense by the way - he’s protecting himself from you leaving him) or whatever other nonsense cheaters say - is still a lie.

Lying to protect somebody's feelings is still lying especially during reconciliation. A husband flew back into town early, went to a hotel and what, paid cash? I call BS. Why lie at this point? His wife already knows that he stayed at the AP's house because the AP told her.

I don't think I would get hung up on whether or not they exchanged gifts but everyone has their topics that are important

Ok, you were all so helpful of
I fired our marriage counselor since this post- she a)kept repeating the phrase "you’re putting a gun to his head" which just wtf? By asking for truth you are comparing that to murder???? b) pushed me in a session after asking if she could push me and I said no (I was already bawling) c) used the phrase "getting his dick wet" to refer to the affairs multiple times. Like I need that fucking visual????
He is standing by no gifts. He says he would bring treats to the entire staff, and she would be there, but she didn’t get anything separate from that.
You know, my IC was working with me on my intuition before my son discovered the affair, and now I feel like she is saying "well, you’re never gonna know everything so why listen to your intuition". For me it’s not about the gifts per se but about feeling like he is still lying. And feeling like if he admitted there were gifts, then it wasn’t just the completely, only physical relationship that he swears that it is (for four years…).

Good for you for firing that MC. Bad ass an ballsy move. Good for you.

I hope your WH pulls his head out of his ass and starts speaking some truth very soon.

Are you looking for another MC? Or are you going to stick with IC for the time being?

Dandelion, I hate the feeling of being lied to. I have some questions I firmly believe I never got an honest answer to. Eventually I had to let it go. I think it gets to a point where he has been lying about it for so long, there is no going back in his mind. Also, the truth to those questions would not have an effect on my decision to R or D. So I just had to let it go. Still have the urge to revisit and as much as I believe I have every right to the truth, I had to accept the situation for what it is.

I think if I was in your shoes and realized his disposition will never change, I would have to decide if it is a deal breaker as far as R and if it's not, I would probably ask him to remove any items from the house she might've gifted him over the years. It might be a dumb idea but in some weird way, it would give me some sense of control back, false as it may be.

Your MC is as worthless as a two-day old turtle in a triathlon. Glad to hear you got rid of this person!

I am mixed on this.

I absolutely believe anyone here when they say their intuition is nagging them. And when you don’t know what you don’t know the gift could be something you consider small or it could be one of the worst parts of the betrayal.

I had a two month affair and there were some small things exchanged.

But my h had an 18 month affair and I believe he didn’t give her anything at all. So I don’t think it’s impossible. Not everyone had gifts in their love language. Over the course of the last 20 years or so, it’s usually a big deal for him to get me a card. He is hit or miss on birthday cakes. Surprises are out of the question. He just doesn’t have it in him. it works okay for me because gifts are low on my scale too. He would have been far more susceptible to help her with something. But as far as I can tell she just showed up and fucked him. They never went anywhere together, they never just hung out, and by his account and what I got from obs there weren’t any gifts exchanged not even a card on her birthday.

But everyone is different. You know your husband and you know what is likely or not. I am just chiming in to say I think you can have an affair and not give gifts. But just because it’s possible doesn’t make it true in your case.

A riff on Carolina's and hiking's post....

Everything ow gave my W was trashed within 48 hours of the revelation of the A. Some were handmade ceramics; those were trashed and smashed. Over the next few years, some stragglers were found; W always shoed them to me, and they were trashed. If that's something you want to do, accept it - it's an entirely reasonable desire. Some people sell their dream homes to move away from anything tied to an A.

If you continue to believe your H is lying, D or even another form of non-R are very reasonable. Sometimes our guts are wrong. I know my W sent up some red flags, and my gut stayed quiet, for example.

I know choosing between one's gut and believing what you hear is a very difficult task. The best I can advise is to look closely at why you don't believe your H. It's very unwise to believe a WS in the aftermath of d-day, but some of what they say is going to be true. I wish you the best, and I'm so sorry you have to deal with this very difficult question on top of being betrayed.

My reco IS to give yourself a big break. All you can do is make the best decision possible based on what you know and what you want. There's no way to guarantee that you're making the right decision. We all make mistakes. So free yourself from the impossible burden of making the right decision. You're free to D, to R and/or to wait for more info.

I think a large part of the problem is that they (WS) are in such denial and so ego-centric that they will almost always lack deep insight.

It’s like asking a child if they’re lying. Their insight is so poor (which is what got them there in the first place), that it’s not even about truth anymore. They can’t understand a complicated concept like "gifts".

When we choose to reconcile with WS, (and I did, with mixed results depending on the moment), we choose to reconcile with people who lack insight in general. It’s like trying to have a deep relationship with someone who isn’t deep. You kind of have to accept that the connection will be flawed and problematic if you want to reconcile.

So answer to questions will frequently be on the superficial side, with rare exceptions. They don’t want to look into the animal side of themselves because it’s ego dystonic and painful. Can’t say I blame them. I wouldn’t want to look into that, either.

I accept my WS as being a deeply flawed person who lacks insight most of the time. So I’ll only get his version of recall of the truth. His perception, not mine. And his perception is very very flawed. That same perception led him to think anonymous hook ups are ok.

I will never know the truth. But time is ticking, and I’m still living my life, even in reconciliation. I won’t say let go of the truth, but I do think accepting that their brains might literally not be able to understand that concept has brought me peace.

It’s like living with an emotionally dysregulated person, you have to just move on, there is not usually a meaningful discussion about how off the chain their overreactions are….. and that kills a little bit of my soul every day that people like this continue to waltz through life without justice.

Justice does not exist. Truth seeking is seeking justice. When you reconcile, you throw justice out the window because you want other things more. And yeah, holding up that mirror absolutely sucks, from my side as well as his.

If you cheat, you’re not empathic.
If you reconcile, you accept that justice won’t happen.

It all sucks.

He gave her gifts. He won’t see them as gifts, though. And you can’t ever get those gifts back, much less make him see it from your perspective (lacking empathy is a root cause in them to cheat).

I’m truly sorry. It’s not fair.

It’s like the old kissing a scorpion and being shocked it stings you story.

And I’m still married to my scorpion. "Reconciled" for over ten years. But I know he’s a scorpion…… and I won’t be shocked if he stings me again. But I like my comfortable life not paying large amounts of alimony, or watching him drag 20 year old step mothers into my kids’ lives. That would absolutely suck, having to navigate some idiot 20 yr old parenting my teenager, because I feel pretty sure that’s what he would do. Sometimes we make strategic decisions based on all of the information, and the decision sucks. But I’m done lamenting it. As I say to myself, "Hashtag choices". I made mine based on what I think I need to do and what is the best outcome for all. And I will continue to reevaluate every day. If there is nothing in it for me after the kids are out of the house, then he might or might not come home to an empty house without warning. Who knows.

Faking your death and going to Mexico is always an option!

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 7:37 PM, Saturday, October 26th]

Another thought- that same insight is difficult in my own self, as well. I have always been a justice minded person, until it affected my life.

So I’m a big fat hypocrite who only cares about my own comfort. If I really cared about justice, I’d bite the bullet and divorce without pining away for his to develop insight. It’s really about not paying alimony, because paying alimony to a cheating spouse is more ego dystonic than staying and accepting that I don’t give a real flying flip about justice when it’s expensive.

At least I have insight lol!