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My VAR files from today and yesterday reveal, at the very least, a secret relationship that my W has with a co-worker. Voice conversations while she is commuting and likely using an app on her phone. Still working on finding out which app.

I have nothing solid that tells me it is intimate yet but it's friendly and it's secret. That's enough for me to know that it's likely heading towards a d-day. Something innocent would never be hidden from me.

What I'm currently battling with internally is how to say 'STOP! before you do serious damage to our marriage and lives together' while also not revealing my cards of how I know. How I'm collecting this information is the only/best asset I have to protecting myself once a full-blown affair is revealed. The naive optimist in me wants to believe that telling her I know will cause her to 'wake up' and not let this relationship deepen. I honestly don't know if it already has.

The other option, which is sickening, is to let this play out while I collect information so that I am empowered with the information I need to confront her/hire a lawyer/hire a PI. I am so not looking forward to nightly revelations and listening to their 'friendship' grow. *puke*

Also the emotions related to the flip-flop of some days feeling like there's nothing and I'm just being silly. And then there are days like tonight where the floor feels like it dropped out from under me. Rinse and repeat.

What I'm using to collect information.

- VAR that records morning and evening commute
- Car tracker that shows a location and trips
- A small battery operated camera that I am using to record her car's interior during her morning commute (the battery doesn't live long enough for end of the day recording).
- I am eagerly trying to capture her phone pin code so that I can look into her phone. She guards it heavily and face id is almost always used to open her phone so the pin display is rarely used.
- The spectrum router in our home does not allow me to see internal logs of website traffic. I have a new router arriving this weekend. I'll use that to hopefully reveal what apps she is using while connected to the home wifi.

As others have mentioned, it's sickening to have to think like this. Snooping around and violating her privacy is heartbreaking but I have to know the truth. One way or another for my own sanity. My gut is tugging me in a way it *never* has.

After you get the router in place you may want to consider a soft confrontation. Nothing that would compromise your information gathering. Questions, not accusations. I feel distance between us, are we ok type questions maybe even the big is there someone else.

If something is going on it could provoke a reaction that would be captured by the var.

Does facial recognition work when eyes are closed? Probably not, but if so, when she's sleeping.

Could you go out with her somewhere and 'forget your phone at home' and need to use hers? Maybe at a party? If she is nervous or denies you using it alone for awhile then confront her on that behavior. Married people should not be protecting their phones from each other. If she puts up a stink, it's rock solid clear she is protecting something and there is really no way for her to squirm out of that accusation. She'll make up all sorts of things to explain it that won't make any sense.

Personally, I would not wait until she sleeps with a guy to confront. But the sad fact is that she may already be doing that.

In my opinion, I think you should talk to her now. Tell her this friendship is making you uncomfortable and the fact that she’s hiding it makes you suspicious.
I understand wanting to wait for more proof, but I say this because I think what you’re doing sounds mentally draining. Personally, the measures you’re taking to spy on your wife seem extreme to me, but I get where you’re coming from.

My partner doesn’t like me going through his phone but if I asked to use it, he wouldn’t get paranoid about it and would give me his phone.

The things that reek of suspicion to me are that you don’t know the pass code to her phone. I still know my partners even though he doesn’t like me looking at it, he knows I could if I wanted to and doesn’t hide his phone or anything. Also that you say this relationship is kept secret from you.

My partner had a close female friend at his old job, they talked often and at first it made me uncomfortable but then I just got used to it and the suspicions went away because I realised he wasn’t hiding anything. If she text him while I was sat next to him, he wouldn’t try to hide it or his reply, I could read it (and often did) and he often talked to her on the phone on speaker when I was around. They mostly were just complaining about work/gossiping about colleagues, she always asked how I was and how our kids were and they often took the kids on play dates. I felt fine with it because he wasn’t hiding it.

Have you already spoken to your wife about it at all?

Have you already spoken to your wife about it at all?

I've let here know in weeks past that something just feels 'off' She always denies any need for suspicion.

Guess whose back? Bigger - nobody’s favorite sceptic!

First of all: GOOD WORK on the investigative techniques. I know I was vocal in warning you to use "proven" techniques, and it sounds like you have followed that advice.

Second: Don’t jump to conclusions...
What is the "nature" of their calls? Like if it’s to arrange the day’s schedule or prepare meetings intermingled with a little small-talk... fine. I often use my commute to confirm schedules and assign tasks. My wife doesn’t know I call Jane or Dave or Susy on my team and it’s not really a "secret" but just like I don’t know if she’s talking to Steve or Dane or Mary at her place of work. It’s less "secret" and more "non relevant" to the marriage.

If it’s 90% small-talk and/or non-work-related issues. Ding ding! You have something to work with.

Focus on identifying the person she speaks to. Male? Female? Coworker? Superior at work or subordinate? What is their work-relationship?
Focus on the content/context: Mainly work or small talk. If the later, what type? Too personal?
Are there any plans for the day (non-work related)?

Based on the VAR – does she leave the office for lunch and if so – are you catching any traffic in HER car? Like if she says she goes to the nearby food-court at the mall for lunch, do you get recordings corroborating that she goes there in her car? Do financial transactions fit with what she says she’s doing (and where she’s doing it).

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All this talk of an attorney or a PI...
Keep a couple of things in mind:
Would infidelity have ANY impact on divorce in your state? It’s highly unlikely – these days it seldom does. Most states are no-fault divorce, where one of you can file for any reason, and the division of assets is pretty predefined excepting excessive financial, emotional or physical abuse.
You only need to convince yourself. If your wife is having an affair then waving a DNA report and glossy pics won’t really make her have had more or less of an affair. Like if you had a recording where she arranges to meet Dave at the Lovers Den Motel at noon, and then pics of her entering room 203, and then leaving the room an hour later... She could still deny. Was only a "meeting", he needed to talk about his wife or whatever. All that is needed is that YOU are convinced. Don’t have to prove to her that she’s having an affair IF she’s having an affair.

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Go back to your first posts...
At that time you had suspicions that the child your wife is carrying was possibly fathered by someone else. Possibly at the trip she went on. Now you are concerned that a "friendship" might develop into something more.
What’s your line of thought? Same person? Think she had sex with a coworker, got pregnant, and now they are establishing a friendship that MIGHT go too far? Does their conversation indicate that they were intimate? Does he ask about the pregnancy (in a way beyond a "normal" concern for a coworker)?
Do you think your wife is so wanton that she first had the affair on the trip, and is now fast-establishing a new affair with this person she talks to on the phone?
Listen to the recordings with all this in mind.
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You can use false info.
Once you have better established the depth of their connection. Like if she calls him (assuming it’s a male) every morning or nearly every morning, weekends, commute to and from work... If it’s more than could be considered "normal" for work or even casual friendship. If the context is outside of acceptable...
If this criterion is met then consider a false confrontation:
"Honey – Who is Jack and should I be worried?"

She will deny any concern. If she refuses his existence... BIG flag. More likely "Jack? Jack at work? He’s a colleague. Why?"
And your answer – I got an email where I was warned about you and Jack. This adds up to the way I have been feeling something is off. No – I don’t know who sent it. It was anonymous using one of those secret disposable email services. I did send a reply asking for more info but have yet to hear back. But WHO IS JACK and why is this person warning me?
And then press it. Be calm but consistent: Who is he? Is he married? Why are you communicating with him? What is it you two are working on that requires this level of communications? Try to respond to her answers with questions.
Would she open her phone and show you her chats with Jack? Why not? No – she can’t have five minutes first – NOW.

NEVER mention what you have and/or how you got it.
Don’t expect an answer. Chances are she will find a way to dismiss this or this will end in her furious.

Only... it’s more-or-less 100% guaranteed there will be communications VERY soon after this confrontation.

Sir first of all, im sorry you have to be here. No one wants to be going to others like this. i can only hope for the best for you.
You've started to feel distance between you and the wife. You've inquired if all is good, she basicly brushed it off as is ok. Did her actions change after asking this. What was it that pushed you to start monitoring her? Have you discussed going out for a fun weekend together, letting the world's worries wait till Monday, getting lost in yourselves?
Now You've stated she password protected her phone and didn't give you access. So have you asked her why, as her husband, she would do this? Ask her are you not the love of her life, the man, the knight in shining armor? Why would you secret your phone and password from me? I would start with this manipulation after putting in the new router and knowing how to use it. Any type of confrontation should be after, to see how quickly and how much usage picks up. if its an iPhone and you have an iPad, chances are they're synced. This could help immensely at gaining the knowledge you seek. Have you tried tracking her cars location? Maybe use a GPS tag stashed in the trunk area to get real time input. It's maybe illegal, but this is strictly for your own personal knowledge and she need not know how you know. It sounds like sci-fi, but if she does go to an unknown addresses shes never discussed and neither of you ever gone to, then possibly you have someone you know that has a drone to monitor what she does there. Im sure you could find online people offering drone services. Stealthy, quiet and come with video and audio feed.
Don't know how long you've been married, but in any relationship its sad when it comes to all this to know if you're the one or a third wheel. my advice is the sooner the better when it comes to confrontation on this. Remember cheaters lie, lie and make more lies to cover the lies. They Will manipulate facts and feelings, deflect all fault, blame you. DARVO. You have to remain calm and resolute when confronting. The calmer you are the more agitated the other becomes, loosing track and focus of the deception and lies spun. Given the right interrogation technique, I hate to use that word, most people will willingly hang themselves to rid themselves of guilt.
So how long has this situation been happening now? What was it that made you take notice? Has she starting dressing different, grooming habits change, spending more time out for various reasons without you,, hours changed without legit verifiable reason, or working overtime without seeing any change finacially? Remember trust your gut. That gut feeling is your subconscious picking up on something you consciously haven't yet. Pay attention, be calm. Either she is or isn't. Question is what will you do should she be cheating, whether just a fledgling EA, full on EA, or heaven forbid EA/PA? You need to now ensure you know in your heart what is a deal breaker and what is forgivable.
Hoping for the best and peace.

Take a minute and look at this from an objective standpoint. You are literally putting surveillance on your W. Is this normal? Have you ever done anything like this before? I’m guessing not. How much longer are you going to degrade yourself and be the marriage police? It’s great that you’ve gotten more evidence from the vARs, but you don’t really need to go any further. This isn’t a court of law. You get to set your own standards for what is acceptable in your marriage.

DDAY had already happened. She’s having secret conversations with another man. Doesn’t matter what the nature of the conversations are. This is an affair because a you know it and it’s making you upset and b shes keeping it a secret.

You don’t need anything else. Doesn’t matter if they aren’t having sex yet. All that matters is what will you tolerate. This is your boundary then you have to enforce it for yourself.

The relationship ends, she goes no contact. If she makes a big stink about it then she has chosen that relationship over her marriage. That’s your answer.

How much longer are you going to degrade yourself and be the marriage police?

I am one who doesn't feel like the initial process of collecting info in any way possible is degrading. Most WS's are cons and liars and unfortunately these investigative methods are necessary to get the truth.

I did the VAR's, Hacked his phone, GPS Tracking and guess what? I got more information that way than I ever would have from my xWS.

I'm still with Bigger on this one. You don't know much yet.

I have nothing solid that tells me it is intimate yet but it's friendly and it's secret. That's enough for me to know that it's likely heading towards a d-day. Something innocent would never be hidden from me.

I'm not sure what the nature of the conversations you overheard were but a friendly conversation with a coworker is hardly something to get worked up about... yet Perhaps there is more, you do not know yet but all the people jumping to conclusions and suggesting D-day has already happened are projecting their own trauma onto you. I get that in a post-A relationship there may be extremely strict rules in place about disclosing any and all contact between members of the opposite sex, but that typically isn't the case in relationships pre-A. Was there a business purpose or specific purpose for the calls followed by friendly conversation, or was it just an "how was your day" checkin? Obviously the latter would be more concerning. There is a difference between a secret and something that doesn't register to the average person as being necessary to disclose. I work in a male dominated field and my productivity would grind to a halt if I felt obligated to disclose absolutely every conversation I had with a male colleague or client to my spouse.

I remain concerned by her guardedness with the phone. Has this always existed or is it new? I think you mentioned she's a lawyer or works in a law office - is it a client confidentiality thing? I still don't understand why you can't just ask her to use is because yours is in the car or out of battery or something.

I would be hesitant to confront her now, unless you actively catch her in a lie - keeping in mind, a confrontation will likely make any A go underground. I will tell you that even having been through this as a BS, if I found out my husband was conducting surveillance of me like this (and I was not cheating), I would be deeply DEEPLY disturbed. If a friend came to me with information that her spouse was doing something like this, I'd probably be concerned for her safety. I don't say this in an attempt to shame you, I'm just trying to provide some perspective.

In the event she is cheating as you suspect, have you given thought to what your plan is?

It doesn’t really matter if it’s full on affair or just friendly conversation honestly.

What matters is that something is clearly going on where OP has started pulling active surveillance on his W and according to OP what he heard was more than enough to make him extremely uncomfortable. That’s all that matters, and I personally believe anyone has the right to enforce that boundary with their spouse. He as the husband has every right in the world to say this relationship isn’t appropriate and I won’t tolerate it. Every spouse/partner should be able to. Even if they aren’t having an affair and it’s completely innocent. She, should respect his boundaries and acknowledge that her marriage is more important than her male friend. There is nothing wrong or controlling or abusive about that.

And I firmly believe that a spouse knows when something is wrong. That is our gut, we know when someone has their eyes on our partner, and we know when our partner isn’t acting right. Almost all of us here did. How many posts have we seen where a spouse was extremely unhappy with a friendship but didn’t want to be the crazy jealous one and didn’t say anything? Then a few months later they are posting here and it’s almost always the same story. To be clear, I am one of them. It’s absolutely crazy to me to think that we have gotten to a point where suspecting opposite gender relationships is something that has to be justified.

Should he collect more evidence? I guess if he’s in an at fault state.

The one lesson I have learned hard from all of this is that I don’t need absolute truth, I just need to enforce my boundaries.

I understand the need for evidence, I get the lies and gaslighting I lived it too. Once I realized that I am not crazy and am not wrong for being suspicious of the "just friendship" I was able to think clearly.

Now I am speaking from a post A side I admit, but if my W or any future partners I have put a "just" friend above our relationship, that is the end.

What you are doing is not degrading. It is protecting your peace and your vows. If you are doing all of this then I’m sure you have a very valid reason to investigate. Do you have access to her phone records? When I was suspicious of my WH that was the first thing I did…check the phone records. Which confirmed he was talking wayyy more than the casual catching up on work place drama. It was a full on EA turned PA. A private investigator helped me prove that. I don’t regret any my investigating.

Edited to add: if you need evidence in a divorce to not be as financially obligated to her then it’s 100% necessary if you have a valid reason to do this. If she is causing the downfall of this marriage and committing infidelity you have every right to investigate

[This message edited by Stayinghopefull2 at 11:17 PM, Wednesday, July 3rd]

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this. I find so much support in the level-headed reasoning that everyone has shared. I need that level-headed reasoning because I'm in that place where I'm following my gut more than my own logic, constantly self-doubting for a variety of reasons, and just really really afraid of loosing something that I care so much for. So these thoughts remind me what 'center' looks like and helps me stay on a path that is reasonable and responsible. Again, Thank you.

One word of caution for myself and any others using a VAR - the sounds of someone having a conversation with a person while they are in their car using earbuds is *very* similar to what you might hear when someone is simply talking to themselves. That is, in both scenarios you won't hear another person in the conversation. People's thoughts, when spoken aloud, and in private can almost even seem like they are having an animated conversation. I've yet to 100% verify that's what is happening with my W, but in the interest of finding the truth and not the infidelity (thanks Bigger) it is a very real possible outcome in my case.

I may have mentioned that I also have a camera in her vehicle that records her morning commute. I can clearly see that she does not have earbuds in her ears while having, what sounds like, a conversation. So if there is no one on the speaker phone in her car and she does not have earbuds in, then what I think is a conversation with a person is really just a conversation with herself or rehearsing a conversation with anyone and no one in particular. I know I do that a lot myself.

My VAR files from today and yesterday reveal, at the very least, a secret relationship that my W has with a co-worker.

I may have mentioned that I also have a camera in her vehicle that records her morning commute. I can clearly see that she does not have earbuds in her ears while having, what sounds like, a conversation.

Wait, so does this mean that the friendly conversation you "overheard" was one-sided and could very well have been her practicing something for work? Did you actually hear a voice on the other end? Was her side of the conversation work-related?

Wait, so does this mean that the friendly conversation you "overheard" was one-sided and could very well have been her practicing something for work? Did you actually hear a voice on the other end? Was her side of the conversation work-related?

There were multiple 'conversations' that I heard and I can verify that a portion of what I heard seems to be a conversation with self. That's really all I can definitely say. My VAR records to-work and to-home commute while the video device only has battery capacity to record to-work commute. I can confidently say all to-work commute conversations she did not have earbuds in and at no point did I hear someone else through her car's speaker.

There are VAR occurrences where I have called her. Each time I call her I hear my voice clearly come through the speaker.

Honestly this type of thing is driving me batty because I keep falling back into feeling like 'Wow, I'm over reacting and my W is not doing anything wrong'. At which point my gut instinct tugs at me hard to say 'Something is definitely wrong!'. Someone mentioned seeking some IC and I think that is a wonderful idea. I want to explore the possibility that my own un-resolved traumas (and betrayals) aren't at-play with that 'gut instinct'. I was a WS 20 years ago in my first marriage.

[This message edited by soaringpenguin at 10:49 PM, Friday, July 5th]

Voice to text?

I can confidently say all to-work commute conversations she did not have earbuds in and at no point did I hear someone else through her car's speaker.

And were the work 'conversations' about work-related topics? At this point, even if she was talking to someone other than herself, you don't even know at the moment whether it was a man or woman do you?

Honestly this type of thing is driving me batty because I keep falling back into feeling like 'Wow, I'm over reacting and my W is not doing anything wrong'.

I get it. Like I said, I'm not trying to embarrass or shame you for any of this - just add some outsider's perspective. At the moment, I don't see any waving red flags other than her apparent phone caginess (still interested in knowing whether this is new). In saying this, I don't want to discount your gut - I do think there is value in listening to what our body tells us, and certainly none of this proves that she is NOT cheating (how could you ever prove that)... but I wonder whether all the change/stress going on in your life right now is impacting your interpretation of all this, particularly if you're predisposed to anxiety at all (are you?)

1. Your spouse has a new job, which is probably taking a lot of her time and has shifted her priorities and resulted in changes to the way your household runs. You say you've been married 5 years and have a young child, which means that for most of your marriage, you've lived in a post-covid world - it's possible that she hasn't worked in-office full time since you've known her. You may not know her colleagues like you did at previous jobs, which might make add to your insecurities - especially if you're not feeling particularly connected to her.

2. You mentioned in your prior thread that you have some longstanding power-control issues in the relationship with her not showing you love the way you tend to feel loved. Has this been exacerbated by the new job or anything else as of late? I wonder if any of this is adding to your feelings of insecurity in the relationship.

3. Perhaps most importantly, you' also JUST found out about an unplanned pregnancy. That is LIFE CHANGING information. It is enough to make anyone feel overwhelmed, especially at 49 when you already have one special needs child.

Also, the semen smell? Without being TMI - pregnancy hormones are wild and the boost of estrogen in early pregnancy can result in increased vaginal discharge which can smell like semen. Seriously, google it. Again, not proof she didn't cheat, but if there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for something that does not point to infidelity, that is worth considering.

Someone mentioned seeking some IC and I think that is a wonderful idea. I want to explore the possibility that my own un-resolved traumas (and betrayals) aren't at-play with that 'gut instinct'

Have you previously experienced betrayal?

[This message edited by emergent8 at 11:55 PM, Friday, July 5th]

The very best advice ever given, on this site,is to TRUST YOUR GUT.

Many of us had that GUT feeling,prior to dday. Many of us went looking and found nothing. I did, the first time around. I found nothing,because the affair was over. So any var,reading messages, etc, produced nothing. Bit I knew something was wrong.

It's entirely possible the affair ended when she got pregnant. He wasn't that serious about her,and she knows you are stable, reliable,and will be a good dad. So you're trying to find proof of an ongoing affair. But it might be over,so there's nothing to find. Especially if she has a work phone,you can't access.

I see some saying your gut may be wrong. Maybe. However, YOU know your wife. YOU know something feels off. YOU know she's exhibited behavior unlike before. Trust yourself.

What is stopping you from seeing her phone? I agree with hellfire, trust your gut.

If you have never felt this way before and are now feeling something so drastic that you have gone full surveillance then something is definitely going on.

I am going to give you advice that I wished I had followed. It comes with a price though so be warned. If all of these feelings and suspicious thoughts are new and never experienced before, if this is the first time you have ever questioned and going so far as to VARs/camera, then to me, the key is her phone.

You probably won’t get her pin. So if you can’t take it anymore then you have to see her phone. First and foremost it is not invasive of her privacy. She is your wife, nothing on that phone should be something you don’t know about. Especially now a child is involved where the paternity is in question.

Get to place one night when it’s just you two, and tell her you want to see her phone. Ask her to unlock it and let you look. If she has nothing to hide then while she may be a little ruffled or confused, handing it over unlocked won’t be a problem.

Based on everything you have said, I doubt she will do that. I’m betting it will be a huge production and lots of gaslight and accusations towards you.

Hold your ground if so, and make it clear, hand over the phone or it’s over. The key here though is you have to actually mean it and be ready to. Never confront unless you are ready to walk.

And if she doesn’t still, then you need to start walking away. If whatever she has on her phone is so bad that she’s willing to risk the end of the marriage and not show you, you have your answer.

I want to explore the possibility that my own un-resolved traumas (and betrayals) aren't at-play with that 'gut instinct'. I was a WS 20 years ago in my first marriage.

Can you unpack this statement for us, please? This seems like it could have all kinds of bearing on interpreting what your gut is screaming at you. Did you stray during a pregnancy or in some circumstance that you are being reminded of? Is some part of your story being projected onto your wife?