SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think I'd like to add one idea to this conversation, and even though no one has said this, choosing to D is not failing to R. I'm not suggesting anyone has explicitly said this, but it may be an implied idea in the mix. Just my opinion.

I chose to D, not because I failed at R, but because I reached a point of realization, that my life would never be my version of "good" with my WW. I had spent my life comprising and making up for her character faults, and I was done doing that. Had she stepped up and done the work, we might have made it, but the love was gone and even though I might one day get to a place of affection for her, I would never feel like I would take a bullet for her.

I applaude those who R. Just wasn't for me.

What bothers me is the idea that D or R can be a default decision.

From the POV of the BS's mental health, the outcome is irrelevant. The most important aspect of recovery is how the BS reaches the outcome, if the BS has a choice. (For example, a WS who leaves and files for D makes D the most likely outcome by far. Even then, though, the BS has options - to accept, to delay, etc.)

I think the default action for the BS is to 1) recover from the shock, anger, grief, fear, and shame that come with finding out one has been betrayed; 2) figure out what the BS wants; 3) figure out how best to get what the BS wants, if it's attainable at all; and 4) act in the BS's best interests, given the facts in the BS's life. (WRT attainability, for example, no matter how much partner A wants R, it's almost certain to be D if Partner B wants D.)

IMO, the biggest problem with thinking D or R should be the default is that it implies the BS can control the outcome when the best way to a healthy resolution is to realize that one person can't control the outcome of any enterprise that includes other people.

D is always possible. I chose R in part because I thought we would be able to resolve any issue that arose; but so far I cannot ignore the fact that D is always available if we hit an issue we can't resolve.

*****

I agree with you, Justsomeguy. D implies nothing more than D; it doesn't imply a failed R. There are many good reasons for a BS to choose D, some of which don't include considering R at all.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:31 PM, Sunday, August 13th]

Cheating is not always black and white. There are some people and relationships that are beyond repair but others that might do well with the right kind of direction. To pull the plug or not should be a well thought out decision not based on the advice of strangers on the internet.

I appreciate this post. I have similarly wondered why some who stayed through multiple DDays and horrendous behavior from their cheating spouse, who now claim to be so happy they stayed because things are good now, so quickly recommend divorce and say the other person's cheater is irredeemable.

It made me feel very confused about whether I can get to a place with my WH where we're happy, and maybe I don't actually have to divorce (and everything that comes with that) etc.

Why are they recommending others give up so quickly when they didn't, when they now claim to be happy?

That reads to me like they aren't actually happy. Or if they really are happy, why aren't they recommending others stick it out and hope for change when the cheater is behaving exactly like theirs did?

"Just a few more years (and maybe some extra DDays and more trauma) and you'll get to a happy place, and it's all worth it!" is how their own personal accounts read. The advice feels very confusing and conflicting for a new BS.

Lots of good points here. I think the advice to D comes from a place of care and caution, trying to spare others the pain that comes from continued poor recovery or worse, deception. I was a year late finding this forum and some of that tough advice might have spared me a ton of future hurt. The first comments I got were shocking and a bit harsh as opposed to what I was hoping to hear, but I had blinders on and could not recognize the predictable patterns my WH would follow in the wake of discovery of his LTA. I certainly didn't expect to fall apart like I did, either. Life is short, and I'd like some of those years back or spared myself some of the trauma I endured.

I try not to advocate that anyone D or R, but I have told new posters to be very careful of extending blind trust or explaining away all the red flags noted in these comments. Don't be me. Maybe I wasn't ready to face the truth, or was just incapable of comprehending such a wrinkle in my life, but I am certain now that if I had gotten and heeded advice to run or protect myself, I would be much less damaged and slow to recover now, both as a person and a wife who is trying to stay in this marriage.

There are some strong, adamant voices here who bluntly advise to cut and run and Divorce and I think we all filter our advice through our own experiences. The one thing none of us can know or tell a BS is whether or not their WS is finally being honest and ready to engage in a fair, adult relationship, or how strong the love that binds a couple may be. That is for each person to figure out on their own and learn to live with.

The wisdom of the collective here is seldom wrong though, from my experience. They have seen and heard it all, and they are pretty good at spotting a broken marriage that currently has no future, based on the details provided. They saw my own relationship situation for what it was better than I was able through my fog of shock, love, faith and commitment to my marriage. I wish I had found them sooner, and that when I did, I had a quicker learning curve. I was on the slow train to getting the BS program, let alone the WS handbook. We are still married, and trying to stay that way, but the road has been a rough one, and my biggest regret is not leaving immediately to remove myself from the cake eating equation and all the pain that brought to my life. I stayed on the long nauseating ride while my WH learned to be a human being with integrity and morals again, and it would have damaged me much less to have healed on my own and let the relationship take a back seat to my healing. Instead I fought for a marriage that was still filled with secrets. I wouldn't wish this on any new members here.

Something to add is that in my few years here, I have seen the tone of the comments shift with some newer posters, or go through some cycles based on who is popping in, and am so grateful for the admins, guides and ambassadors for the continuity and stability and wisdom they bring to these conversations.

[This message edited by whatisloveanyway at 4:25 PM, Monday, August 14th]

I will say with 99.9999% confidence that there is not a single BS on this forum that had only a single DDay - unless they immediately left their WS.... Every day, there's a member who joined SI 2, 5, 10 years ago, and comes back for DDay nth.

Huh? You aren't reading the posts - you're just looking at them and seeing what you want to see.

Please point me in the direction of someone who had only one DDAY that doesn't fall into this category:

I will say with 99.9999% confidence that there is not a single BS on this forum that had only a single DDay - unless they immediately left their WS.

Because this poster did leave immediately (or rather, kicked out the WS):

I hadn't found SI yet, but somehow I knew that it would be too painful to have him near me while he was still carrying on with her, so I asked him to leave. He moved in with his mom and was on the fence until 3-4 weeks later, when he ended the A and we began R.

So she had some space to heal and WS knew she meant business. A BS who doesn't separate or divorce immediately becomes a pushover in the eyes of their WS. Which leads to further lies, trickle truths, and DDays.

^ That last cited post was from me.

Trapped, I don't know the statistics, but I'm inclined to lean towards your take on this.

I don't care if the WS is contrite and falling all over themselves to make amends, if they don't feel the consequences of their actions, long term change is unlikely. Those consequences could be immediate separation, or they could be a BS who doesn't take steps to S or D but who has requirements for R and is setting strong boundaries and guarding them like they're the DMZ between North Korea and South Korea. The threat of D is there, even if the steps have not been taken.

The point is that the BS MUST stick up for themselves. Ya don't fuck around with playing the pick-me game with the WS, or tolerate them trickle-truthing, or refusing to share details, or refusing to do whatever else the BS needs/wants. If the BS tolerates the bullshit, it's going to come back to bite them in the ass. Every time.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 8:36 PM, Monday, August 14th]

Raising hand - one d-day, never left, healed, R'ed. I'm around here fairly often. My profile is pretty open. I think my journal is, too.

Your confidence is misplaced.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 1:55 AM, Tuesday, August 15th]

Raising hand - one d-day, never left, healed, R'ed. I'm around here fairly often.

Ditto.

T/J

Maybe we should place a poll somewhere. My confidence my be misplaced, but my math ain't too far off. The last member number I can find is 83674. If more people don't pop up with "only one DDay" (caveat: I consider the WS finally copping to more times, a longer affair, or more/different APs as being DDays, so that may change the calculus) that's 0.00239022874%. Not too far off from my 99.99999% confidence level.

end t/j

The last member number I can find is 83674

I'm not sure why this is so important to you, and maybe that's something you might want to take a little time to do a little self-discovery on?

But since you brought up numbers in defense of this:

* 83674 is the number of users that have "walked through the door" since the site was created many years ago. There are not 83674 "active" users. I don't know that number, but my guess is it would be a fraction of that.

* Of those active users, how many of those are WS's? Again, a mere fraction of the total

* Of those active WS's, how many WS's contribute on the R or G forums in the first place? I would guess a very, very tiny little fraction, like "count on one hand" kinda small

* Of those active WS contributing users, how many actually saw the post in the first place, and read far enough through it to respond?

I'm not a mathematician or a scientist, but I'd still have to say that this "evidence" is based on faulty logic, faulty numbers and faulty assumptions.

I understand and appreciate that you are frustrated and hurt, and who knows, maybe you are correct? I think many would agree with you. However, strong feelings and "token evidence" do not make a recipe for an accurate conclusion.

What DaddyDom said.

Peggy Vaughan did a bunch of surveys and published Help for Therapists (and their Clients). For several years after her death, it was available for free download on her posthumous website. In it, she reported that a large percentage of respondents (A majority, IIRC, around 56%) reported staying together, many of whom experienced one d-day.

Basing your conclusions on the number of SI members is a major logical error. The devastation of d-day does not excuse projections for long. In this case, it's essential to understand there are no statistics about infidelity that describe infidelity accurately, because there's no objective recorder of infidelity.

Vaughan, I'm certain, would admit that her numbers refer only to her sample, not to our population at large. OTOH, Vaughan's numbers are a hell of a lot better than SI's membership.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:47 PM, Wednesday, August 16th]

I've never really understood what a second/third/fourth etc DDay even really entails?

Is this when it turns out the A never ended? Or it restarts? Or the WS has another affair?

It could be when be any of those. Also, some people count new revelations as an additional day.

Thanks sisoon!

Ah I see... well new revelations, yes plenty of those.

Another A, continuation of the A, or finding out it never ended. Nope, none of that.

I feel the need to clarify that I don't agree with Trapped's math, but I do think that a BS who doesn't take a hard stand for what they need/want from the WS after DDay is doomed to prolonged agony.

I've never really understood what a second/third/fourth etc DDay even really entails?

Is this when it turns out the A never ended? Or it restarts? Or the WS has another affair?

All of the above, on Dday 1 my WW went NC and ended her A.

Dday 2 was new information after TT, it was way worse than I was first told. It set me back to day 1 on the healing clock.

I feel the need to clarify that I don't agree with Trapped's math, but I do think that a BS who doesn't take a hard stand for what they need/want from the WS after DDay is doomed to prolonged agony.

Absolutely.

I hate to belabor the point, but I think it starts with the BS knowing what they want for themselves and knowing what they are willing to give. I think those realizations have to come for a BS to heal. I believe that self-knowledge can come along with, shortly before, or shortly after the BS figures out what they want from their WS, but BSes heal only when they figure out both sides of the equation.

A couple of examples:

I 1st knew I wanted to R. I worked on why I wanted R; that took a of couple of weeks. Then I worked on how I'd know if my W was doing what she needed to do or just love-bombing me. That took a couple of months.

A member found themself in R because the WS seemed to want R. It took quite a while for that member to realize that they just didn't want to R no matter how their WS changed, which led to D and and a good life for the fBS.

It's much more easily said than done. It's not anywhere near as simple as the examples. But the examples work as outlines.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:42 PM, Friday, August 18th]

I will say with 99.9999% confidence that there is not a single BS on this forum that had only a single DDay - unless they immediately left their WS.

I would say that it depends on your definition of a d-day. To me a d-day is learning of an A that is ongoing or has rekindled or a break of NC or something like that - it other words, discovery of information that was not available at the time d-day 1 happened because it had not yet occurred. Therefore, a d-day occurs only if there has been some sort of false-R. If you are using a "d-day" as when new information is discovered/told after d-day1 - when the A was discovered for the first time, then I would agree that hardly anyone hasn't found out more after discovery day, even those who did leave or kick the WS out the minute they found out.

I have had 3 d-days. D-day 1 was in 10/17 when the A was discovered and WH confessed. D-day 2 was 10/18 when I had proof that the A had rekindled several days after d-day 1 and continued on for a year. D-day 3 was in 4/19 *maybe it was 3/19 - I can't recall now* when I confronted him about the A rekindling yet again (he went NC for 3 months and then went back for about 6-8 weeks until I caught him again). At that point I was already saving to leave after my job ended in 2020 - I left in 2021 due to COVID delay.

In-between all of those d-days I discovered, asked, was told about, new information all the darn time. A lot of it, especially in hindsight, was minor. Some of it was major - for example WH had claimed it was all sex for him but that AP was quite smitten. That was a lie - he was in the same love boat she was - he just didn't want to tell me. I learned of the multiple-times-per-day masturbation sessions and sexting that he minimized or just refused to tell me about. I learned all kinds of small details all the time. To me those do not constitute d-days - if they did, then I have had like 1000 of them.

But what is the point anyway?

It made me feel very confused about whether I can get to a place with my WH where we're happy, and maybe I don't actually have to divorce (and everything that comes with that) etc.

Why are they recommending others give up so quickly when they didn't, when they now claim to be happy?

I don't recommend divorce immediately. What I do recommend is protecting your assets going forward - so to the extent you legally "separate" or whatever, I highly recommend that (you move, they move - whatever works and is best for you). I also recommend separating in the beginning, as in living apart, to the extent you can, and especially if you have children. Giving you some space to contemplate your future, to see how your WS responds, and giving your kids a safe environment to process is far better IMO than staying in a charged atmosphere and faking it for the kids (which again IMO just helps to facilitate rug sweeping and your kids at best feel the tension - at worst they are party to some of the outbursts, none of which is healthy for them at all - ask me how I know).

I didn't do this immediately - I don't have kids and honestly I was playing some version of the pick me dance and trying to un-blow up my world for my career's sake. I had moved to where my WH lived and had been killing myself to get my dream job near him as I had been doing contract work all over the country to get the experience to get the job I took. I got it and found out about the A - that it has resumed - and I had just locked myself into a 2-year contract to permanent position. It SUCKED. I should have moved out in hindsight, but I really felt like if I was moving, I wanted it to be far far away, and due to the job and the total demolition of my career path that would have happened if I just up and quit, I stayed. Those 2 years were BRUTAL. Horrible. If I die young I blame those years.

So I'm not recommending giving up - I am recommending taking an active role to protect YOU as the one thing as WS has shown you when they cheat is that they are NOT going protect you in the way you likely thought when you married them. So protect yourself, protect your kids, and let your WS show you that they are willing to do what it takes instead of a bunch of words, that can't be trusted anyway.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 7:33 PM, Saturday, August 19th]

* Of those active users, how many of those are WS's? Again, a mere fraction of the total

* Of those active WS's, how many WS's contribute on the R or G forums in the first place? I would guess a very, very tiny little fraction, like "count on one hand" kinda small

* Of those active WS contributing users, how many actually saw the post in the first place, and read far enough through it to respond?

I'm confused as to why you are citing WS stats. Who cares? I'm talking about the BS's experience of whether or not a DDay has been repeated. WSes do not get to decide if drastic Trickle-Truthing equals a new DDay. I was also fairly clear about what I personally (and at least one other member here) considers a DDay.

Are we really saying that if a WS admits to smooching a coworker in the parking lot after a work party (admitting to an Affair, right??) and never rekindles anything from that point on, but then 3 months later BS finds out it was a BJ (because WS is hard-core TTing), that isn't another DDay? And then 3 months later, BS finds out the WS and AP had actually been knocking boots 3x a week for the last year and a half, that's not a new DDay??

Come on, now.

Next someone is going to say that lots (using stats from the RIC whose entire livelihood depends on "fixing" marriages) of WSes confess 100% of the whole unvarnished truth to their BSes, without being caught first! Halleluiah!

And they never NEVER get defensive and abusive when their BS ask questions or get emotional about the affair once the WS has said their mea culpas.

So to answer the original question: at best, reconciliation is unearned pain and suffering for months/years followed by a "happy" semblance of the pre-affair marriage, with the BS still either playing marriage police or putting up 'healthy boundaries' to protect themselves, meaning even the BSes here who consider themselves happily reconciled still have had to have a reckoning about what they will and will not put up with in their marriage, meaning their WS's affair is forever a part of their life going forward.

And wow, talk about gaslighting. It wasn't important to me. I formulated a stat backed up by reading through these forums for the last 8 years, that no one has actually effectively countered except for 2 BSes (ignoring WS's "not me" because who knows what the BS in that sitch thinks) to say "well that's not MY experience, therefore it must not be true." In fact, my second comment suggested SI conduct a poll. But folks still piped up to debate it.