SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don’t know why I never saw this….

At one point I was going to let the OBS know that they were being cheated on. (I did ultimately)

My counsellor who was IC/MC told me not to divulge / make contact. That on some level the OBS already knew and was ignoring the state of the relationship.

"Which I suspect means I was expected to have known" in her view?

Today I finally realized that that same counsellor said to me ,"how could I have known…" about exWW lying about going underground during false R. Throughout, I was saying that I felt things were still going on and I was told I was being crazy. Told me to "get off of my carousel of crazy making" because IC believed my exWW saying she wasn’t.

Anyway, the irony makes me chuckle and it hurts.

I want to give encouragement to all those rebuilding themselves. What a tough thing. Keep going.

I 100000% knew something was happening. I wasn't sure what for quite some time. My H's personality changed like a light switch was flipped. He went for months being unhappy, depressed, to being angry, and gone all the time, and was working what one would call a dream job. I didn't get it.

Within a a couple months, I knew he was cheating, but it took me another 4 months to get the proof I needed, but this was pre everyone texting, pre social media, plus I had young children, worked a more than full time job, and he was out of town, at least 3 days of every week.

I suspected he was either cheating, using drugs, had a gambling problem or had his mind snatched by aliens. These were things on my short list for quite some time.

I eventually put it all together, but I had time to wrap my mind around next steps. Be ready when I actually got proof.

But yah the therapist you had was garbage. I hope you were able to find someone that is better.

Many of us tell ourselves a story about what our marriage is and who our spouse is, and we're invested in it. Anything that doesn't jibe with what we "know to be true" doesn't get past the mental barrier. I truly believed that my H would never cheat on me after he spent years trying to get me to date him.

There were red flags all over the place, but I thought his weirdness was due to military PTSD and/or because I was doing something wrong, like not being a good enough housekeeper or not wanting sex as often as he did.

I didn't have the benefit of comparing a pre-A normal demeanor to the cheating demeanor. We lived in stress from the start because I had an unplanned pregnancy two months after our wedding that sent us into a tailspin; he cheated for the first time before that baby turned 1; the cheating happened while we were in the middle of a transfer of duty stations and were apart; he deployed after cheating before seeing me again; and we were apart for almost a year. When he returned, I thought it was Desert Storm that had messed him up. And that was the new normal.

It reminds me of the trick I pulled in high school: When they sent all the packets home on the first day for Mom to sign, I signed them so that the signatures on the excuse notes that I wrote after skipping school would match. He essentially "signed the forms" by cheating for the first time so early in our marriage. THAT weird behavior was the norm. When he cheated again, it didn't seem all that off to me.

When he cheated for the last time (the only A with an emotional element) I remained mostly oblivious until he started the revisionist history and ILYBINILWY crap. Then I knew something was off. I thought it was a mid-life crisis. People even said "Girl, he's cheating" and I didn't believe it. Because it didn't jibe with the story that I had told myself. Those stories are powerful.

Your IC should know better. If you were still seeing them, I'd say bring it up in counseling.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 4:30 PM, Wednesday, July 26th]

I have a theory that in recent years has been supported by some fascinating and interesting research into the different parts of the body that we are beginning to understand. There are what are believed to be memory cells in our gut (trusting your gut) but also other organs in our body that have showed this behavior. The theory goes, we use our senses of touch, smell, hearing and sight to take in a whole bunch of information about the world around us. We are far more perceptive at a subconscious level than we could probably ever have realize. So therefore, the theory is that yeah, the body does notice and catalogue observational behavior changes that we notice in our spouse and our subconscious processes things that we observe and it will sometime come up later. When I learned of my wife's affair, suddenly months and months of conscious and subconscious thoughts and feelings had a totally different meaning in my life. It was like playing a game of Tetris and you are able to clear a whole bunch of rows when you get that one straight piece and all you have is a column missing one block and you clear out like 4 or 8 rows in one shot. That is how I described the feeling and it almost happened in real time. Suddenly, every interaction over a span of many months was reframed and yeah, all a long, my "gut" knew.

Before d-day 1 I got the "I am not happy and think maybe we should separate" talk (over the phone - I was working out of state for a year and we were about 6 months in), but when I asked if there was someone else he denied it, of course. At that point I believed him - but he then almost immediately wanted space and didn't talk to me for 3 days (never happened before and we dated for 4 years in a long distance relationship) and then I knew something was up. The year of false-R, I knew something was off, but when I decided to set him up to catch him, I was sure of it and just wanted proof so we could cut to the chase when I confronted him.

We are far more perceptive at a subconscious level than we could probably ever have realize. So therefore, the theory is that yeah, the body does notice and catalogue observational behavior changes that we notice in our spouse and our subconscious processes things that we observe and it will sometime come up later. When I learned of my wife's affair, suddenly months and months of conscious and subconscious thoughts and feelings had a totally different meaning in my life.

YES. Because my H had been cheating almost from the start, there was an instant huge Tetris move that cleared a bunch of lines immediately, and then there were months and months of little bricks falling and clearing away more and more lines. It took a long time to synch my gut with the truth.

This is really gross and maybe TMI, but there was one time that I kissed my H and smelled sex. It didn't really even rise out of the subconscious at the time, but once I had information that he had been cheating, the memory came rushing back at me and I was furious. That happened with a lot of things. There were connections firing all over the place.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 5:19 PM, Wednesday, July 26th]

This is a yes and no for me. I am a BH and my WW started cheating within a year after our marriage and kept it up off and on for 20 years. The first affairs, she was a bit sloppy and had a "tell". Sex would be withheld, she would be cold and finally she would tell me "she didn’t think she loved me". Of course, this was always AFTER she had already cheated. Justification after the fact. I was suspicious and confronted her a few times. She always lied. There were other times I suspected but didn’t confront. These haunted me years later.

After taking early retirement, I was "haunted" by times I suspected I was being cheated on but didn’t confront. So I finally just came out and asked my WW. It took a while but she finally disclosed "all she could remember". Turns out every time I suspected she was cheating, she was. These were all within the first 6 year of our "marriage". Her last three affairs (during years 15-20 of our marriage) I had no clue. The "tell" was gone, we got along great, sex was great, our kids were growing up and we were very successful in life. I was convinced we had "made it". After I was given the timelines, I STILL can’t really identify things I missed other than "girls night out" wasn’t innocent at ALL. She ran with other waywards. During this time there were 2 LTAs. One was 18-24 months (she "can’t remember" exactly how long and one was 6 months). The latter one occurred the year we moved into our dream home, celebrated our 20th Anniversary (she and her last AP "bonded" over having reached that milestone within days of one another), our daughter’s high school graduation and moving off to college. I remember that year well. No clue whatsoever….. she had certainly “honed her craft” for those later affairs.

[This message edited by ImaChump at 5:48 PM, Wednesday, July 26th]

Hum, no. It's easy to say after the fact that "of course I knew" but the truth is most of us really did not know anything more than the reality of our spouses behavior being off or wrong somehow. I think most of us could see that, but we lov(ed) them and trusted them, so the credulity gap is significantly larger than with an acquaintance or stranger.

Things definitely line up after being shown the truth, but most of us we not only want to believe our ws, we have a rational reason to.

I disagree with the op therapist, in both the idea the obs knows on some level and that they shouldn't be told. We have no idea of that obs situation.

Regarding senses, the way memory works, to be very over simplified memories are more easily constructed and retained when associated with a sensory input like smell or taste, and are easily recalled with those sensory recollections. We don't have actual memory in the gut per se, but in simple terms it's definitely an enhancer or what have you.

This is a yes and no for me. I am a BH and my WW started cheating within a year after our marriage and kept it up off and on for 20 years. The first affairs, she was a bit sloppy and had a "tell". Sex would be withheld, she would be cold and finally she would tell me "she didn’t think she loved me". Of course, this was always AFTER she had already cheated. Justification after the fact. I was suspicious and confronted her a few times. She always lied. There were other times I suspected but didn’t confront. These haunted me years later.

After taking early retirement, I was "haunted" by times I suspected I was being cheated on but didn’t confront. So I finally just came out and asked my WW. It took a while but she finally disclosed "all she could remember". Turns out every time I suspected she was cheating, she was. These were all within the first 6 year of our "marriage". Her last three affairs (during years 15-20 of our marriage) I had no clue. The "tell" was gone, we got along great, sex was great, our kids were growing up and we were very successful in life. I was convinced we had "made it". After I was given the timelines, I STILL can’t really identify things I missed other than "girls night out" wasn’t innocent at ALL. She ran with other waywards. During this time there were 2 LTAs. One was 18-24 months (she "can’t remember" exactly how long and one was 6 months). The latter one occurred the year we moved into our dream home, celebrated our 20th Anniversary (she and her last AP "bonded" over having reached that milestone within days of one another), our daughter’s high school graduation and moving off to college. I remember that year well. No clue whatsoever….. she had certainly "honed her craft" for those later affairs.

You went through a lot. Are you still with her?

You went through a lot. Are you still with her?

Interesting question? I guess the better question is "was I ever with her"?

The answer is "it’s complicated". The cheating occurred 1985-2005. She confessed to cheating once in 1985 in 1990. Which was true but she left out 6 other affairs to that point including the one she was in at the time with our neighbor….

D-Days were June/July 2022. Recovery has been feast or famine. Right now, we are on a 10 week "break" from doing any recovery work.

I feel like my "marriage" was a sham and "died in the crib". Although, these affairs were many years ago, it feels like they just happened. But we have also had 18 "good years". Also, my wife was diagnosed with a life threatening illness in February of this year and will be having treatments until May of next year. I won’t leave while she is undergoing treatment. So yes, we are still married and living together. But if things don’t improve on the Recovery front (some forward motion at least), I have marked the Anniversary of D-Day 1 next year as the day to "pull the cord" and get out.

In answer to the question about knowing about the cheating, I can tell you my H was never MIA, no missing $, no odd behavior.

Until the night that became dday1. He was hours late and not answering his phone. So we he strolled in the door at midnight I asked him what was going on. He was at least honest and said he had been with someone else.

There was no way I could have predicted an affair. In hindsight I wish I had been more prepared. I always knew he had opportunities (because of his traveling for his job) but I just never thought he would.

I was utterly and completely blindsided when I happened upon the phone records that showed my husband calling and texting one number thousands of times over four months.

A therapist that uses "they already know on some level" as a reason not to inform the OBS is too inexperienced/lacks the skill to be counseling someone who has experienced infidelity.

There’s not really a way I could’ve known about my husband, unless I had a more suspicious/jealous nature or a level of hyper vigilance that isn’t compatible with a healthy long term relationship.

He had his affair in the first half of 2020, as Covid hit and when we were switching off driving three hours to the city where his sister lived, to stay with her and care for her as she died of cancer. The moderate amount of distraction and sexual/emotional irregularity I can see in retrospect (the Tetris block effect) were attributable at the time to the physical and emotional grind we were already in due to caretaking and dealing with the practical difficulties of lockdown, jobs, kids, etc. There was never any suspicious, unaccounted for time or other clear signs I was missing. They were careful to hide their tracks, and he was excusing the affair in his mind by telling himself it wasn’t wrong to have something else on the side if he still loved me and wasn’t neglecting me or taking time away from our relationship.

Sure, in retrospect I can see signs that he was cheating. And interestingly, when I saw the phone records, I instantly knew who the AP was. So I think my subconscious was picking up signs. But I didn’t know—couldn’t have known—on any level that would actually have helped me. And it was wrong that I didn’t know. He stole my agency and endangered my health. And broke my heart.

Your therapist sounds way out of her depth.

My gut and intuition tell me that my spouse has cheated. I have zero hard proof.

There is research about whether people can discern when someone else is lying or is trustworthy and the general answer is that we are not very good about it. Yes, sometimes it is pretty obvious but there are many people that can fool others, even people who are experienced in this dynamic like CIA, police, judges etc. This is covered pretty well in 'Talking to Strangers' by Malcom Gladwell.

In short, humans tend to trust that other people are telling us the truth until we learn otherwise about a specific person. When we are dealing with our spouse or partner, we want to believe them and that makes it even more difficult I think.

Also, I wonder how many WS actively search for ways to hide their affairs? I bet at least 25% of A have at least one of the people in the A searching how not to be caught. I have read multiple examples here at SI where the AP coaches the WW on what to do to not get caught.

I have to give a wishy washy answer to the question of did I know. I sort of did?

My STBXH had a year+ long A with a MCOW who was 18 years younger than him. When they first started working together I was suspicious so XH suggested her and I become friends so I would see there was nothing to worry about. We did that and would hang out sometimes, just us girls. So, that was one thing I thought about whenever I'd become a little jealous or suspicious, was that what kind of person would maintain a friendship with me while sleeping with my H? Turns out, there are plenty of garbage people in the world.

There were other, little things, like he started reading a book she'd recommended which I knew was not something he'd enjoy and he rarely took my recs. When they first became friends he talked about her a lot but that was greatly reduced as time went on. I now know that was to keep me off the scent. He was never late coming home and we had location tracking on our phones; every time I looked he was where he was supposed to be. It turns out they were meeting before and after work at a parking lot near work that would look like they were still at work.

Basically, sure, I felt something was off but he always had an explanation and they worked together to gas light me. I really believed they might have a crush on each other (her more than him, or as I believed), but I really didn't think they'd act on it. With that said, when he told me he'd been having an affair, like Grieving, I instantly knew who it was with.

Intuition is accurate in some of cases, but most WSs are super good at compartmentalizing. Of course, after the initial shock of finding out, I think most BSs start making connections and end up feeling they "should have known". Starting on your heels like that really sets you up for self blame. It’s a mess.
In my experience, affairs involving feelings of love or infatuation exhibited signs every time - and less intense scenarios that were one time things seemed to be very easy for WSs to keep entirely hidden.
Hopefully it wasn’t your counselor that was saying "get off of the carousel of crazy making"..

Very few things trigger me these days, but this way of thinking, especially coming from a therapist triggers the hell out of me. Yes, I knew my husband had mental health struggles that changed his behaviors, but cheating? Never even crossed my mind. I never thought "wow, he is depressed and full of anxiety, I bet he’s sitting alone in the back of the house texting his lover". He was never late, treated me decently, never overspent, was generous with money (I never worked) and although our sex life wasn’t as active as it had once been, it still existed and I chalked it up to being in our 40’s busy with kids rather than college kids in our young 20’s. So no, I had zero idea. I am happy that I don’t have a mindset to even consider that. It’s because I don’t have the cheating capability and naively assumed most others don’t either. Plus, I’d always assumed cheaters hate their spouse and are about to leave. Wow, did I have some eye openers.

Luckily my ICs have completely understood why I didn’t see the GIANT WAVING red flags in my M while he was in his A. One part was I wasn’t looking for them. I heard hoofbeats and I was looking for zebras not horses . Cheating was horses - he had all the signs. But i was sure it couldn’t be horses.

I also own that I was (getting better though) conflict avoidant, so I didn’t call him out on his bullshit behavior. I asked him about it but when his answers didn’t add up, I made up excuses for him. (Stress, age, medical issues). His lying trying to gaslight me got so stupid I really started thinking he had early onset dementia. (Went way past zebras there— but I was determined to not see horses.)

Also, I had put him on such a tall pedestal and I didn’t want to let that go. I had him on such a pedestal that i was proud to be his partner. I thought it made me a better person. This was 180 from the truth but it was something I needed/wanted to feel. That was where my FOO issues came in.

The reluctant silver lining in all this is we learn to see and consider those red flags. We trust our gut more.

So did I know he was cheating on some level? I knew something was very very very off. I refused to consider it was cheating.

My gut feeling sensed that something was off. I didn't listen to my gut feeling for a while. I guess I didn't want to know. That is until I couldn't ignore my gut feeling any longer. So I confronted my soon to be ex. The first time he denied. The second time he confessed.

Fun fact. I knew without knowing that it was a coworker from the legal department. To this day I don't understand how I knew..... Sometimes your gut feeling is so spot on.

I also knew at that moment that I had lost him. I regret that I gave him a chance to save our marriage. The pick me dance continued for 8 months and I lost....I'm not a good dancer..

[This message edited by Helena67 at 5:30 PM, Thursday, July 27th]