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Are you still checking in on us welp? How are you doing? Do you have an update to share?

Hello friends,

I wanted to provide an update on my situation. After some thought, my spouse and I decided to undergo a trial separation. However, I had concerns about the legal implications of leaving our home, so we opted for the nesting method. This means she stays in an apartment for four nights while I take care of our children at our marital home, and then we switch. She has been cooperative and flexible in handling childcare responsibilities.

Initially, our agreement was to pursue this separation, maintain no contact, seek individual counseling (IC), and eventually start marriage counseling (MC) to explore reconciliation. We were to meet at the end of the month and kind of see where we stand with things. She said she called him and basically told him that she needs to try to save her marriage. He said "he would be surprised if she didn't try but he is there however she need her" etc..

When we met at the end of the month, she told me that she was mad at me at some point because I sent he some articles about affair fog etc.. that she contacted AP and couple more times after that. She said she felt guilty about it but "she cannot stop contacting him". She says that she doesn't want to hide things anymore. She is now not sure about getting a couple's therapist, she thinks that "she needs to work through her personal issues with individual therapist" etc.. I have told her that I want to reconcile and "walk the walk" "talk to talk" as long as she is willing to meet me halfway there.

So she is basically sitting on the fence being ambivalent and indecisive. I am pretty sure that she is calling him almost everyday (he lives in another state). During our meeting I also told her that since she is in contact with AP, it is a fair game for me to star dating other people (I am not even sure if I want this right now but I wanted to see her reaction). She said okay. She hopes that I find someone that I am happy with.

Regrettably, I resorted to desperate actions like calling and texting her after our meeting, engaging in a "pick me" game. She responded positively, but I noticed an increase in her contact with AP. It seems she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

As of yesterday, I started to implement 180 method. I hope I can continue. My current plan is to tell her that I will fully move back to house at some point. Wait until end of the year. If I see no efforts towards reconciliation, and she doesn't want to go no contact. Start the divorce process.

Interestingly, I learned that AP is facing financial difficulties and is going through a divorce himself. It perplexes me how she is willing to jeopardize her financial stability and time with our children when I am still willing to work on our relationship. It appears her affair fog is clouding her judgment.

What are your thoughts on my approach?

Here are my thoughts. I know you really would Ike to save your M. But at what cost? The more you pursue her, the more she turns to the AP. Always value yourself. You deserve a faithful partner who loves you. Never be an option in your own M. Implement a hard 180. No contact except for child and financial matters. The person who is the least desperate to save the relationship has the most leverage. It appears that you need to risk losing the M to have any chance to save it. Moving forward take care of you. Be firm in your actions and resolve. You are the prize. If your WW doesn't see that, her loss. Focus on you. Good luck.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:41 PM, Saturday, September 2nd]

Hi Welp,

So sorry you are continuing to face this issue. I lived your exact experience so I will
Share my experience and thoughts. Maybe this will help you.

Backstory: married 25 years at the time of my H’s midlife crisis affair. OW was 20 years younger (single no kids). He’s planning to D me (which I learned 10 days after I learned of the affair).

My H was in the affair fog as well. He was "unhappy for years" or until he met the OW. He wanted out and like your wife, he kept blaming me for HIS unhappiness and his continued cheating.

I realized nothing I could say or do is going to change anything.

I learned he will cheat if he wants to, he doesn’t care about me or our marriage b/c cheaters will tell themselves ANYTHING to rationalize and justify their behavior.

I learned I had to figure out was best for me & kids. He refused counseling or discussions etc. that could address the problem. So I went to counseling on my own. It definitely helped me.

I see you keep trying to negotiate with your wife. I understand trying to come to mutually acceptable terms. That is the best outcome. However you may want to consider that you are negotiating with the enemy since she is still cheating.

At some point you have to stop trying to "understand" her and her choices. Emotions are not always logical. Affairs and especially the OW or OM are often bad choices too. Often the AP is a nightmare - in debt, unstable, blah blah blah. We see the AP description here at SI as very unflattering to put it mildly.

I think at this point the 180 is what you need to do. The cheater wants to remain "your friend" b/c this allows the cheater to rationalize the affair by telling themselves "it’s not that bad, I’m still friends with my STBXH".

Understand she’s plotting behind your back and not being honest with you.

Best thing I ever did was tell my H I was D him. And I added in he was free to be with the OW or anyone else he chooses to be with. This marriage is over.

He no longer can control me. Or situations that pertain to me (unless I agree with his decision or choices). I learned how to very easily play that game and I win almost every time.

No means no. For 25 years I was a doormat. But not any more. Lessons learned.

When we met at the end of the month, she told me that she was mad at me at some point because I sent he some articles about affair fog etc.. that she contacted AP and couple more times after that. She said she felt guilty about it but "she cannot stop contacting him". She says that she doesn't want to hide things anymore. She is now not sure about getting a couple's therapist, she thinks that "she needs to work through her personal issues with individual therapist" etc.. I have told her that I want to reconcile and "walk the walk" "talk to talk" as long as she is willing to meet me halfway there.

As long as they are in contact, the affair is ongoing and you cannot even begin reconciliation. This also means you don't have other fundamentals at hand such as a complete written timeline of the affair and electronic transparency including all accounts and all passwords.

I agree that IC is more important than MC at the moment.

She is not confused (not really). She wants both your marriage and her affair. Most people are incapable of being sufficiently selfish to say these wildly selfish desires out loud. They can't seem like the bad guy in there own personal story. Thus, confusion.

"Am I the baddie?"

So she is basically sitting on the fence being ambivalent and indecisive. I am pretty sure that she is calling him almost everyday (he lives in another state). During our meeting I also told her that since she is in contact with AP, it is a fair game for me to star dating other people (I am not even sure if I want this right now but I wanted to see her reaction). She said okay. She hopes that I find someone that I am happy with.

And there she will remain. Not really even on the fence. Just having an affair in front of your face.

Regrettably, I resorted to desperate actions like calling and texting her after our meeting, engaging in a "pick me" game. She responded positively, but I noticed an increase in her contact with AP. It seems she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

Precisely what she wants. We call it cake eating around here.

As of yesterday, I started to implement 180 method. I hope I can continue. My current plan is to tell her that I will fully move back to house at some point. Wait until end of the year. If I see no efforts towards reconciliation, and she doesn't want to go no contact. Start the divorce process.

You have to go harder than this. Please at least call a lawyer and get a consultation. I did this early on an it was very helpful to have the lay of the land and to understand how divorce was likely to proceed. You have to demystify it to make it a real option. It needs to be a real option if you are going to R (reconcile).

I think you are close to the right path, and you need to go a little harder into the 180.

I also remember what it was like shortly after d-day, and I know that it's extremely difficult to just do.

AP may or may not actually be going through a divorce since cheaters are all liars. Tell his STBXW. She either already knows and it isn't a big deal, or he is a liar that is cheating and not divorcing and she doesn't know and you will free her of the lies.

Thank you so much; I genuinely appreciate the support.

I will inform her that I will wait until the end of the year. If I see no improvements or steps towards reconciliation by then (no cutting of contact, no couples therapy, etc.) I will start the divorce proceedings. This effectively gives her another three months or so. The emotional affair began in early June, with D-day occurring on June 28th. She cut contact for 15-20 days before eventually resuming contact.

Is six months a very short time for this? I will be urging her to make a decision. Is this the right approach, or should I continue implementing the 180 until she's ready to discuss it?

This only my experience so take it as you can. Every single woman I know who had an affair left her marriage and married the AP. I so hope this is not where you are headed but I want you to face reality. She doesn’t sound like she is giving him up. You need to prepare yourself emotionally and financially. It is time to talk to a lawyer.

So she is basically sitting on the fence being ambivalent and indecisive. I am pretty sure that she is calling him almost everyday (he lives in another state). During our meeting I also told her that since she is in contact with AP, it is a fair game for me to star dating other people (I am not even sure if I want this right now but I wanted to see her reaction). She said okay. She hopes that I find someone that I am happy with.

She is not ambivalent nor indecisive, she is just hedging her bets so to speak, the last sentence is loud and clear as to her desires.

It is not possible to save people from themselves, and frankly if she really cares about you would she do this?

In my opinion you need to start making preparations for a divorce as she wants to try to go back the high school.

It sounds like she is still in the affair, and willing to give up you and the family to continue it.
It also sounds like he is going through a divorce, to possibly be with your wife.

I don't really know what 3 months will do to affect her thinking as she is way ahead of you in this...years of fantasy to be with old BF are coming true so she is deep in affair fog.
Do not be surprised if she decides to take a trip "back home to see family and clear her head". 99% chance she will meet up and test drive her old BF (aka just to talk)
It sounds like she feels like staying together is all up to her, but remember it takes two to say yes but only one to say no.

Download the divorce forms from the county start to work on them to get an idea what is involved. Run numbers about how much you will have to pay in support.
Does she have a job? Or will will your costs 2x to run two households?

I'm not suggesting you are me. Or that your wife is my wife. I also know we basically have to learn these things through experience because we all think we are a little bit special.

I set deadlines, and then didn't back them up.

R didn't start until I asked for a D in writing, because that was what finally made it real to my wife that I wasn't going to tolerate half measures. That was about one year after my dday.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 3:52 PM, Sunday, September 3rd]

IMO I think waiting 4 more months is a mistake. That means you are allowing her to continue to sit in the fence, not commit to the marriage, continue to cheat and continue to manipulate you to get what she wants.

I am sorry to have to say this @Welp, but you have basically GIVEN YOUR WW PERMISSION to keep her affair going while staying married to you, with you as her back-up plan. And so your WW is now openly dating POSOM while you stay patiently waiting.

I'll put this another way: YOUR WW IS WALKING ALL OVER YOU!

Women do not respect men they can walk over like this.

You have been dealt a tough hand indeed. But I am afraid your only move at this point is to file for D. You deserve better than this, but you won't get better than this until you wake up.

Hello Welp,

In hindsight after many years of supposed R, the inflection points at which I could have zigged rather than zagged are much clearer.

With that in mind, I would stress what others have written, and urge you to draw your line in the sand, because she IS STILL in the A, and will continue doing so under your nose for as long as you tolerate it.

Get informed -- talk to a lawyer, download the local divorce forms, find out all your options. And announce that you are seeing she has made her choice (in that she's still in contact and showing no efforts towards initiating improvements in the M), therefore you're starting the D process. Then go hard 180.

If you have ideas of a timeframe, keep it to yourself. "If I don't see ____ by this date...." fine, but do not announce it. And don't count on it. Keep moving towards getting yourself out of this misery.

Seriously, she's seeing a get out of jail free card, and she's fully disrespecting the M and you. If you allow this to continue, even if you R, you will find yourself perennially disappointed by your own inaction. Take a stance, make a move, and however it turns out, you know you did not allow someone who supposedly loves you to treat you in this way.

** Posting as staff and T/J **

Consider this idea:

Women do not respect men they can walk over like this.

But specifying women and men makes my ADD brain wonder if the quoted statement means 'men do respect women they can walk over like this'? I don't think that idea holds any water, though, so I wonder about why 'women' and 'men' were specified.

Here's one way of not violating the 'no generalization' guideline:

Consider whether the characteristics you ascribe to one gender are also evident in another.

Not many people like to be betrayed, no matter what their gender.

Most people want to be respected, no matter what their gender.

Most people question their sexual abilities and attractiveness when a betrayal is sexual, no matter what their gender.

Sure, sure, there are some generalizations of gender differences in the meanings of As, but the supporting data is thin on the ground. More important, there are clearly many people who do not respond the way gender stereotypes say they will. When 20-30-40% or more of a population are outliers, a generalization isn't worth much. When the vast majority of a population fit a generalization but the population is large, so there are a lot of outliers, the generalization isn't worth much.

We have to deal with infidelity - we have to deal with everything in our lives - as individuals, not as members of a set.

(signed) sisoon

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:27 PM, Sunday, September 3rd]

I am in a somewhat similar situation. WW started what was likely to become or already was an EA. I caught it early and was quite tough in my investigation and discovered a prior one time physical encounter with someone else. This was along with much other poor behaviour I endured.

I didn’t handle my decision making process well initially and arguably still aren’t. But I have learned very much from the wonderful people here and will give you the following advice. I am a "rookie" so take it as you wish:

1. Read the many threads here. You will see clear patterns repeat themselves and will see much more clearly how these things should be handled when looking at other situations. Learn from this and apply to your own situation.

2. Whatever you decide to do, remember that you should be giving yourself and not WW a time period to decide what to do. That decision may be determined by WW’s actions but it should be your decision as it is WW has stepped out. And do not tell your WW what the time period is or that you are doing this. Because if you do you are giving her a free option/permission to have it both ways within this period. Your timelines may also have no credibility with her as there has been little consequences for her thus far.

3. End the conversations with her. Don’t waste time trying to understand why she has done this. Do the 180 and detach. For your own sake. Not as a tool to manipulate her although seeing your detachment might help knock her off the fence.

Thank you everyone,

I see that most of you are suggesting that I am allowing her to continue the affair letting her "walk all over me". I should consider filing for the divorce. I thought 180 was specifically helpful for people in my situation. WW continues to have EA with AP but I am basically detaching acting like I don't care and moving on with my life.

At the end of the day if she is not responsive filing for a divorce is the only option anyhow. I cannot control her nor I want to fight with her. (I will be stuck working with her for 10 years due to co-parenting regardless).

As far as I see I have two options
1- Do 180 for a while and observe to see if she changes her behavior
2- Tell her this situation is completely unacceptable and start divorce proceedings immediately.

It seems to me, most people are suggesting option 2. Am I understanding this correctly?

My personal suggestion would be to continue the Hard 180 for about 5-6 weeks to see how the situation develops. Don't tell her you have a time limit because she might give you a head fake and then go back to her old ways.

If you don't see any significant changes that she is dropping her boyfriend then you can file for divorce with a clear conscience. That is the way I would probably handle it if I were in your shoes.

OP, read this again from TIF:

R didn't start until I asked for a D in writing, because that was what finally made it real to my wife that I wasn't going to tolerate half measures. That was about one year after my dday.

Sadly, what we’re trying to tell you, your best chance of R is to knock your wife off her fence and force her to make a decision. You seem to be gripped by fear of doing that. D’s almost always take a LONG time and can be stopped at any time, you known like when a WW is knocked off the fence and comes back to reality, shows true remorse, fully stops all contact with OM, and everything else you require.

NOW is the time to act. Not New Year’s day.

As with many of my posts I will meander around some issues. It’s because human interaction are seldom simple, although they do tend to follow patterns. I’m hoping that I can give you some picture of what’s happening to your marriage and how both you and your wife are reacting in a sort-of-predictable way, but a wrong way IMHO.

People can "say" things in different ways, and even say one thing while doing something else. They can even "say" things by not using words at all, but by their actions. Or there can be a great difference is what they say and what they do…
Like if you are walking down the road with your best friend and out of the blue, he punches you… He might apologize, tell you he isn’t clear what happened, and promise it won’t happen again, and you set off again down the road with your friend by your side. Only to have him punch you again...
How often would that have to happen before you realize that there is not much correlation to what he is saying and what he is doing? At what point would you decide that maybe it’s safer to have some distance between you two?

Well… Your wife might be saying one thing, but her actions are another. Actions being the key-word here. Actions outweigh words every time. Like I can state with words I want to lose weight, but it’s the ACTIONS of eating less and exercising rather than the verbal output that makes me reach that goal. Actions.

Your wife has told you what she wants: She wants to remain separated, she wants to be in contact with OM. What she hasn’t told you is that she wants a divorce.
That’s like your friend in the above comparison that still wants to walk beside you – despite the punches.

When you offer your wife time… the decision isn’t made now and then she waits for three months before implementing it. We often compare infidelity to addictions. That comparison is rather limited, but still holds some truth. Like if your wife was using drugs you have now told her that she has until NYE to decide if she is going to quit or not. Anyone that has dealt with a drug-addicted person knows that this doesn’t work… Even IF your wife were to decide NOW that on the first of January she’s going to commit 100% to the marriage… you can bet your last dollar that she will be spending the 31st of December with OM.
There is nothing – NOTHING – that prevents her from deciding NOW.
There is nothing – NOTHING – that will change from now until NYE unless YOU make it change.

What I suggest is that you do two things. These two things are more-or-less based on changing your stance:
First - Instead of focusing on what you think is saving your marriage – which in reality is like trying to save a drug-addict by providing him clean needles and syringes – then focus on getting out of infidelity.
Second – Focus on what YOU can affect and control.

To do the first then accept that there are really only two paths that lead you out of infidelity: The first is when your wife commits to the marriage and you two work at reconciling. The second is where you simply terminate the expectation of fidelity and marriage – divorce.
To get to R you need several things. The main one being commitment from both. There are other key-factors like NC and accountability, but none is relevant if there isn’t commitment. Well… no matter how committed YOU are then if she insists on seeing OM then your only way forward would be accepting some form of three-wheeled marriage… If that doesn’t sound so good then the second factor chimes in: Focus on what YOU can affect and control and that is YOU. If she isn’t offering you R then R isn’t happening.

That leaves the other path… divorce. The one you tepidly mentioned you might look at as a future plan on Q1 24…
Only keep in mind that divorce is such a complex yet simple path… One that doesn’t start or end with filing or even with signing the decree. It’s a combination of personal emotional steps as well as legal and financial steps. You need to both emotionally AND legally detach.
It’s not as if you can enter your petition to D on the first and you are fine on the second. It’s a process.

You have told your wife that there is no need for action on her behalf until the first. I venture that if nothing else changes you will be phoning her on the third and telling here that NOW is her final chance, that if she hasn’t responded before the 15th you will file, and that NOW YOU REALLY MEAN IT… Only for you to extend the deadline to Feb… Not suggesting you are weak, but rather that you are behaving in the typical use-an-ultimatum manner people tend to use… human interaction are seldom simple, although they do tend to follow patterns.

I suggest the following:
Tell your wife something along these lines (this is more-or-less becoming boilerplate text from me…)

Wife – I have had an epiphany. I have realized that losing you isn’t the worst possible outcome from your infidelity. In fact, I can see that I lost you as my wife the moment you decided to have an affair with OM. At best I have been sharing you with him. Well… toothbrushes and wife’s are two things I don’t share…
I have realized that losing you is not the worst outcome. What is immensely worse is SHARING YOU.

I know I previously talked about waiting out this year, but with the clarity I have now I realize there isn’t really any good in that. You can already decide what you want, and no time will really change that decision, plus I don’t really have to base my decision on what you want. What I CAN DO is base my decision on what is available to me. Right now – you are offering at best that I share you in some way, but that isn’t an option I want.
I am therefore starting on the work of terminating our marriage. It’s not necessarily the path I envisioned nor what I want, but it beats what you are offering. Losing you is immensely better than sharing you, because I KNOW that with time I will recover, but I can never accept sharing you.

I hereby absolve you of any expectations I have to you as a spouse. You can date OM, be with OM and behave in all ways as a single woman, but NOT AS MY WIFE.

It’s a complex emotional process but can be a simple legal process if we both agree to that. There isn’t really any rush and the legal system should ensure as fair a deal for both of us as possible. But I am starting as of today the emotional detachment and will start the inevitable legal process soon. I suggest you start learning about what to expect there because I am fairly certain that although fair it will seem harsh for both of us.

To clarify to stakeholders we need to share what’s going on because it’s inevitable. For me the key-factor for this end in our marriage is your infidelity. I have no interest in assigning blame, but nor do I want to sugarcoat things for stakeholders.

If you want a shot at reconciliation you can always let me know. The further along I go on my present path the more content I will be with it, and the less likely I will be to want this marriage. It would require some enforceable actions such as accountable NC and a commitment to therapy. But I’m not waiting – I have set off out of infidelity.

And then you just move on. Make a sandwich, take the car for an oil-change, clean the dishes… Whatever. No more discussion, no need for discussion.
She comes along and tells you the reason she had the affair was your bad breath, work too much, distance, lack of loving, your ugly shirts… DOES NOT MATTER… your stock answer is:

"I’m sorry you feel that way. If we were working on the marriage this would possibly be addressed in therapy, but since we are divorcing there really isn’t any benefit to hash this out".

She tells you she wants the car and the sofa and the dishes and the cat…
"I am too emotionally attached to this marriage to ensure my rights – and yours – in divorce. Talk to my attorney Mr. Sharkeater or better still – your attorney – at the right time. There are laws, regulations and processes that should ensure us both a fair deal".

NEVER argue. NEVER. Never feed her "this is the reason I had to have an affair" logic.

Then follow up with what you said with actions.
She calls you to hear how you are doing:

"Is this about the girls? You know this divorce is not of my choice but of your actions. I need to detach emotionally from you so please don’t call me to talk as if we are friends. Once this is done we will be good coparents but that’s it. In fact I feel that when you are being this friendly with me you are cheating on your new man".

If friends and family ask:

"Yes – we are divorcing. It’s my decision but not really what I want. But… I want it more than I want to share my wife who is having an affair with NAME OF OM HERE. I would be willing to reconcile, but of course that cant be done when she’s dating him. I would appreciate any impact you could have on her to realize what she’s doing with her actions – be it to commit to d or to our marriage."

Start the process at your end. Google and read about divorce in your state/country. Gather all the info you can. Bank statements, debt overview, assets, market-value of house and vehicles… Start separating credit-cards and accounts. Have a clear accounting of what joint assets/debts you are paying for. Start researching for the legal path and your choice of attorney. Save for the retainer.

Once you set off on this path it might be that on the first of January you really do follow your ultimatum through. But that will then be done from a position of power and where you know where you are headed, rather than an empty threat into uncertainty.

Welp:

The longer the window you give for her to have a choice, the more free she will feel to explore said choices, and the more her respect for you will erode.

You are allowing fear to dissuade you from taking action.