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Newest Member: mathemantic

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Completely confused and all over the place

Topic is Sleeping.
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 9:25 AM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Just want to start by saying thanks again to everyone on here. When I first posted I was a wreck. Now I am much more confident in myself no matter what happens next.

Why can't you answer the first question? If she's being so honest,that is surely a question you should have asked by now.

Realise what I wrote could be misconstrued. I don't mean "I don't want to answer that". I mean, I have asked her that and the answer in her mind is it would be too weird if the other guy knew. Messed up I know. Same with his wife deserving to know. It could ruin it for her.

I need to reiterate this is an affair. I do know that. The only difference is the honesty between her and me. That doesn't make it right! But it does put us in a better position to talk about what happens next etc. Her feelings for me haven't changed, and have (inevitably) gone down because she is gutted about this ending. But we do love each other. We love our kids. We want to make it work. We have just gone about it in a stupid, naive way.

This is really typical of WS's while the affair is still in progress and for some time after it has ended. I've got some of my own backstory in my profile if you click the little person icon in the upper righthand corner of this post.

Thanks, will read when I get a chance.


Okay, let's assume your wife is completely honest, as hard it may be to comprehend. You have to ask and question yourself what you want. Do you want a 'functional' "relationship" where you know that said "partner" doesn't love nor desire you passionately? So, are you okay to live like roommates while being legally bond to each other, shared assets, you have to support each other. Can you live like this? If you could then why would you? When you have an answer for yourself then question why she would do so. Where is her benefit in this, does your benefit equal her benefit? I couldn't live like this, I'm not that strong.

This is exactly what we both need to decide but we are going to give it a shot. Neither of us can imagine having to share the kids. And we love spending time with each other. We don't fight (generally). We are friends (with benefits sometimes). It is a weird place to go from. But I am much more confident that I can negotiate whatever happens next because of this thread.

Just to be clear, how many times has she slept with him so far? Also has she been completely honest re what they did & where etc?

Twice. I knew where and when in advance of it happening. We had rules, they were abided by. This is where the hybrid of cheating and open relationship comes in. We were just completely naive about a lot of things and should have given it a lot more time before that happened. I actually thought she would have given it more thought beforehand but that is where the limerance comes in I guess.

I have been trying to get her to see things from an outside point of view. It is all a bit raw at the moment but over time I think she may be able to see it that way. It doesn't change her feelings towards me but with counselling and me looking after myself, giving her space and making myself more confident (which I realised was impossible when unable to sleep and feeling sick because of the situation) then maybe those feelings can be rekindled.

Wish me luck...

posts: 147   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8784973
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 9:32 AM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

It is not a choice between two men for her, but the choice between two women.

Damn, this sentence has such a deep meaning behind it. This puts affair in a very different perspective. Thanks for that, Edie.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 9:32 AM, Friday, March 31st]

posts: 456   ·   registered: Nov. 12th, 2022
id 8784974
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 9:36 AM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Ozzy1788: Were you both in swinger lifestyle before?

posts: 456   ·   registered: Nov. 12th, 2022
id 8784976
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 10:51 AM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

I have been trying to get her to see things from an outside point of view.

Whilst that is necessary perspective, I would advise against taking that role. As in life, only give her advice if asked for and remember a well turned question is much more effective and less seemingly self-serving. Although sounds like communication has always been good between you and this is an opportunity to grow together, I would nevertheless suggest merely signposting her to information for now; it is in your interests she arrives at some of these light bulb discoveries on her own, not through your persuasion or teachings, it’s not the best dynamic. It’s not about trying to persuade her to stay in the marriage, rather the contrary: as I said earlier, she has a lot of love to prove now. As well as signposting, as already stated impartial and probing questioning could help her arrive at a bigger picture by herself- ish (although caveat: you are not, and she knows this, impartial). BUT there is a push pull needing observed, I’m talking about underlying dynamics, not games. That is, this is not about manipulation but about your own state of mind. Persuasion is pushing. You need to pull away and focus on you. This is not about being cold, there is obviously a lot of love between you. But it would be good to focus on what your needs are, rather than hers. You’ve still got much to figure out about yourself, keep focus on you. For example, where is anger in this story, or your own personal history? What’s your attachment style? Gender role models in your upbringing? Core beliefs? Regard for yourself? Relationship to conflict and stress? What are your strengths? Where are your weaknesses? Areyou a people pleaser? Are you in touch with your feelings at all or more other focused by dint of your upbringing? Etc. Remember how much better you felt when you returned to your (independent) self, when you went out to the comedy night with your friend. Keep with that feeling. And she needs to understand how much she has to lose. Stop being quite so congenially available.

And good luck 😊

[This message edited by Edie at 1:41 PM, Friday, March 31st]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8784979
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 1:08 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

It could ruin it for her.

Ruin it for your wife,you mean? Because if she cared about ruining the OBS marriage,she wouldn't be having an affair with her husband.

I have asked her that and the answer in her mind is it would be too weird if the other guy knew.

This makes no sense. The only way it makes sense is if she knows the OM gets off to the secrecy of you not knowing, and she's protecting OM from knowing the truth. Which says a lot.

It doesn't change her feelings towards me but with counselling and me looking after myself, giving her space and making myself more confident (which I realised was impossible when unable to sleep and feeling sick because of the situation) then maybe those feelings can be rekindled.

Ozzy, I think this is one of the saddest things a BS has ever posted in this forum. And that says a lot.

Maybe therapy can convince your wife to love you again? And,if you keep yourself in shape,maybe she will want you again. Man, come on. No woman should have to go to IC to learn to love her husband. First it doesn't work like that. Second, no BH deserves that. She's got you convinced she's the prize. You really need to get her off that pedestal. You are the prize. You are the faithful husband who loves his wife. You are not the selfish,and entitles spouse who is leaving a path of pain because she wants an escape. JFC. If she needed an escape,there are so many healthy ways to find one.

It's sad that you don't think you deserve better.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6332   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8784988
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lparistotle ( new member #78629) posted at 1:24 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Are you allowed to sleep with someone else. You seem niave and this seems to be a one sided. Your wife and another guy got to fuck but you and the other man's wife had to be faithful. If the othe man's wife does not know nor did she agree to this, you are complacent in her not knowing. I will call you and your wife out on this. You are NOT nice people if the other mans wife does not know and he is a scumbag and you all took advantage of her.

posts: 42   ·   registered: Apr. 8th, 2021   ·   location: US
id 8784991
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 1:40 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

I don’t like the judgemental name calling, Iparistotle, but very good point about the complicity.

[This message edited by Edie at 1:43 PM, Friday, March 31st]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8784992
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 2:11 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Ozzy

I haven’t wanted to dip my toes into your murky waters because I tend to be a direct-action sort of guy and there is a lot of what I sense as ambivalence in your attitude and this thread.

However…

What brought you here?

What made you seek out a site that isn’t really focused on marriage counseling – but infidelity recovery?

I suggest it’s because you know that whats going on is infidelity.

Keep in mind that having sex outside a marriage isn’t by default infidelity. If both parties are aware and there is consent then it isn’t cheating.

What I think you two need to do is have a sit-down and define what both of you want and expect in a marriage. On some issues there can be differences – like if you want to be vegan but she wants meat. But on other issues… not much leeway. Like if you want monogamy and she wants an open marriage.
When you are both clear on what you want and what expectations are in place – then and only then is there a possibility of working on the marriage.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 12091   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8785030
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 3:10 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Bigger has posed some good questions to you, Ozzy.

I just wanted to add... do you have anyone in real-life that you can talk to about this situation? Someone trustworthy who really cares about you and can provide reliable and sensible feedback and advice?

I know you haven't wanted to tell family and friends because you said they would be outraged and/or wouldn't understand the situation, but it's very important to have at least one person to lean on for support while you're going through this.

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1794   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8785066
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 Ozzy1788 (original poster member #83108) posted at 3:18 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Ozzy,

I just wanted to say that contrary to the approbation and triggered 2x4s you’ve received, I feel you have conducted yourself with great maturity and thoughtfulness. The fact that it was an ex suggests your WW has been subliminally looking to return to and rediscover a younger self that has other potential, and I don’t mean just sexual potential, but simply self-actualisation and meaning beyond her roles as mother, wife etc - but she has looked in completely the wrong place for that. Very much the wrong place, a somewhat seedy and cliched place which has blinded her and stunted her currently, and diverted her from that self actualisation and real growth.

On the sexual front, given kids and jobs, tiredness, chores, etc it is easy for us all to fall into familiar vanilla ways and statistics show many women do not know how or where physically to optimise pleasure for themselves, and statistics also show the female nurturing side can make it hard to expect or ask for a focus on developing our pleasure. Again, your WW is looking in the wrong place for that sexual journey to herself and erotic growth. That is found in the imagination not the OM.

Glass has written extensively on the slippery slope and it would be good if you and and your WW were to read Not Just Friends so your WW could see in the many stories there how it is her own dissatisfaction with herself that she needs to deal with. In the meantime, the test is whether she responds to your deep hurt, as that has only recently been divulged. She doesn’t sound as self reflective and thoughtful as you but I am hoping cognisance now of your pain will cut through the shine she has gilded the affair with. If not, then one must question the love she espouses for you. Because there is no love in causing another pain. Erich Fromm is interesting on that question of love. How easy it is to do the ‘falling’ in love, a letting go of the self where the self is actually lost, not found. The self can only be found by standing in love. Where love is a verb. She may feel she likes the version of herself she sees mirrored in the OM’s eyes, but that interesting beautiful woman she wants to be can only be found through deep and hard looking at herself in the real mirror. She needs to do proper self love and care, not this Hollywood version, I.e. eat fibre, fruit and veg not cake. She is on a sugar high, and keeps seeking that high when her blood sugar levels drop. To overly stretch the analogy further, she is risking losing limbs, or indeed her whole life chasing these momentary sugar highs in her cake eating and escapism. There will inevitably be an immense sugar crash.

Your instinctive 180 and focus on yourself, where you become the best self you can be, also shows your maturity. I would go into a very hard 180 now. No more negotiation. There is nothing to negotiate. No more stalwart friend. You have made your pain clear. There is nothing else she needs to know. It is not a choice between two men for her, but the choice between two women. Stand up tall, you have shown great strength of character. 😊

Wow this must have been posted as I was writing earlier so missed it. Thank you. What a wonderful post.

To summarise answers to others posts.... no, therapy isn't to make her fall in love with me. Therapy is to sort out why she feels the way she does with him and not me. As Edie said and my readings support, it is the person she is when with him that she loves, not actually him. We had a good chat this morning again about the situation and she is starting to understand the reality. That doesn't mean she will actually fall for me again physically, but I don't really understand the hatred towards me wanting that. I would rather keep my family together with the woman I love than break it up and see my kids half the time. I am going to work for that.

I get the whole don't try and push my views on her but neither of us can confide in any friends about this (at least at the moment) so we are all we have. The conversations are civil though (especially since NC with OM) and we are getting there.

Yes, I could've been with another woman under our arrangement but 1) I don't want that at the moment and 2) it is much harder for a man to arrange that than a woman. In hindsight we should have had that sorted for me before trying this out. Live and learn. No, never done anything like this before.


Because of the not being able to speak to anyone I was slowly going insane. This forum has been the release I needed. Thank you again. I do understand that it isn't the normal situation to be posting here about, but it is my reality. No matter what happens between us I think we will always be civil and our honesty with each other has helped with that, as weird as it may be to some people.

posts: 147   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2023   ·   location: UK
id 8785072
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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 4:20 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Your 'blessings' to let your wife screw another woman's marriage is what triggers a lot of people here. Whatever may be the reasons behind that, it doesn't change the fact that you let your wife destroy another person's family. Period. You let your wife screw another person's marriage, and when it started hurting you, you pulled the plug and started working on your marriage. What about that other women's marriage and her family? That marriage is sinking. Don't you think they need to work on their marriage, too? How will they work on it if one is dishonest and faithless and the other is clueless about the source of their martial problems and also has no agency in it. You and your wife, for whatever reasons helped her AP to destroy his family. Now, you are neither holding yourself nor your wife accountable for it. Neither of you is doing anything to help that poor woman. You should also try and see things from an outside point of view. It's true your situation is unique here not only because of the 'honesty' between you and your wife but also because of your (a BS) complicity in the destruction of other women's marriage. You could have prevented your wife from having sex with that man, but you didn't. You actually allowed that to happen with your 'blessings'. It's much easier to deal emotional infidelity than physical one. It's hard to find sympathy for you while knowing you let the destruction of another family happen because of your twisted logic and naivety. You don't have to help that woman immediately. Take your time. Come up with the right and safe strategy to inform OBS of her husband's infidelity without harming your own family. This way you can help her restore her agency and she can have a real chance of saving her marriage. Anyway, I wish for you to come out of this mess.

She also understands that the way she has gone about it isn't good for the other wife, so she and the guy have agreed to sort their lives out (ie. split up with respective partners before they are ever in contact again). She will give our relationship a fair go first though before any decisions are made.


Do you see the problem here? Your wife will give your relationship a fair chance, but her AP will not give his marriage the same fair chance. He will keep his marriage in limbo until your wife made up her mind while blaming his wife for stagnation of their marriage. His wife will never get a chance to fight for her marriage and for her self dignity. She will never get a chance to hold her husband accountable. Normally, you will be told that it is not your concern what happens in her marriage. But, in this 'unique' case, because of your part in the destruction of their marriage, it does become your concern too.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 6:10 PM, Friday, March 31st]

posts: 456   ·   registered: Nov. 12th, 2022
id 8785116
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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 4:30 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Lurkingsoul12 ! You hit the nail in the head ! OP is as selfish as his cheating wife. He’s working really hard to keep his family intact while he has no issues being very callous about destroying another marriage. OP and his wife are both complicit and very selfish. Period.

posts: 235   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2023
id 8785121
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 5:14 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

I'm going to reiterate Bigger's question then (and mine from earlier in the thread):

You don't consider yourself to have suffered from infidelity. You've made up your mind on keeping the OM's wife in the dark.

So what kind of advice or feedback are you hoping to receive from us?

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1794   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8785133
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 5:20 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

OP and his wife are both complicit and very selfish. Period.

I am no apologist for the complicity in the betrayal of OM’s BW here. But it’s worth remembering before this becomes a scrummage and everyone piles in that many, many of us BSs and WSs alike, had no blinking idea how traumatic infidelity is until the devastation happens. My WH thought that what I didn’t know couldn’t hurt me (he confessed btw) and whilst of course knowing cheating was ‘in some way’ wrong, could not imagine how cataclysmic the betrayal is. We were both deeply shocked about the fallout. I think the depth of that that is only becoming apparent to the OP, Ozzy, as he emerges from his own fog and bewilderment, which he is slowly doing. I, btw, decided not to tell one of my OW’s BH, and instead encouraged her to. She did, and that ‘courage’ greatly saved their marriage. Given NC is in place, OP could perhaps in first instance warn OM to tell his BW before he does.

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8785135
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RoundandRound68 ( new member #82936) posted at 5:32 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Given NC is in place, OP could perhaps in first instance warn OM to tell his BW before he does.

The minimum he should do.

Not telling the OBS, because she is "blissfully unaware" is complicit and downright heinous.

Telling OBS is not an act of revenge on AP or your wife, it's an act of honesty and morality.

Does the merry-go-round ever stop

Me : BH 46 at the time.WW 40 at the time.

posts: 22   ·   registered: Feb. 24th, 2023   ·   location: U.K.
id 8785139
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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 5:34 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Edie, I respect your opinion but the way I look at this OP was an active participant in the cheating. Hell he even knew when, where and how they were taking it to the physical level. He set "boundaries", he had some control even if he was not very willing. He wants to save the marriage for his kids but is also aware that his "honest" wife may end up with her scum of the earth AP with both the marriages ending. The AP’s wife deserves that honesty and a chance to work on her marriage too.

posts: 235   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2023
id 8785140
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 5:36 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

I wasn’t disagreeing with you at all Abalone. I was simply feeling OP is only now getting a sense of the devastation and fallout. Btw, FWIW, he didn’t have any control, consummation was going to happen with or without his so-called ‘blessing’. He researched the wrong info (Perel) which sent him down a blind alley, causing the juggernaut turning needed to be a bit slower but it’s turning….

[This message edited by Edie at 5:44 PM, Friday, March 31st]

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8785141
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 5:41 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

I don't see anyone throwing any hatred at you,for wanting your wife to want you physically. That's a very normal response from a BS.

If you think that came from my post,you misunderstood. It is sad that you think you have been unworthy of a faithful wife. That you feel you need to better yourself in order to gain her affection. What work is she doing on herself to become a safe partner for you?

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6332   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8785142
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Abalone123 ( member #82896) posted at 5:42 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Edie, yes I get that :) OP gets the sense of devastation and fallout for his marriage but seems very callous about the bomb that is going to drop on the other marriage. OP will have enough time to protect himself inside a bomb shelter when that happens. The poor woman deserves a chance to save her life too.
I will stop before I get a PM from the mods :)

[This message edited by Abalone123 at 5:44 PM, Friday, March 31st]

posts: 235   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2023
id 8785143
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Edie ( member #26133) posted at 5:46 PM on Friday, March 31st, 2023

Yes, Abalone, I’ve amended my last post re that, in terms of the processing :)

Maybe a long walk in the Hindu Kush would do it?
BW (me) 52
FWS 55
Together 29 years; 2 kids 15 & 12
Dday Dec 08 (confessed) R'd.

posts: 6632   ·   registered: Nov. 9th, 2009   ·   location: Europe
id 8785144
Topic is Sleeping.
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