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So why after all of her actions does she finally choose her children? They never once came to her whilst she was organising her trysts with AP!
Nah that is a cop out or the children are an after thought so she doesn’t come off as a bad parent.
One day at a time.

Madmax, are you doing ok? It seems like you’re standing up for yourself might be giving her pause. Is that the way you see it? Also are you certain she actually saw a lawyer?

Yes, I'm certain she saw a lawyer. I can still see her calendar entries + location and on the mentioned day there was an entry like "LAWY" at 11.00 am, at a downtown location.

As I mentioned, on that day she came home telling me that from now on she would not pay the monthly instalments for loans (car and mortgage) so that she would have some money and the difference would be deducted at final settlement. I have to check this with my lawyer.

Also, I saw that she tries her best to show she is a good mother. Of course, her core personality, the extrem selfishness radiates through this attempt and she still did not plan anything for the children for the weekend. She got really mad when I asked what was her plans with the kids. She asked me if I am gathering evidence for the court?? I did not understand this... I just wanted to bring the children to a good place and have a good time....

The news is that on Sunday she told me that it was very hard for her to work on our relationship lately and divorce might be a better option. Not that she actucally worked even a single bit on the relationship after Dday. She also told me she did not lie to me and I (!) did nothing to fix our relationship in the past few weeks. (Both are obvious lies, first off she did not have a true statement in the last 3 months and secondly I tried to talk to her 'honestly' and 'openly' about what happened which she refused every time and became irritated by just the fact I want to 'communicate' with her.)

In fact, after Dday she became a room mate, separated, cold and stonewalled.

I think - and this is really hard to accept - she prefers to be a single-mom with 3 kids and be a mistress of a married man, rather than saving our marriage and work on things that went wrong. And she is totally fine with the possibility that our marriage will be ruined and the other marriage would remain intact. So our children will be in a nuclear family that is not a problem, and the other family could remain the same...She is fine with this! Well, I am not fine with this at all and I will turn on the lights big time. I still want to inform the OBW and want to hire PI to find her.

I'm also gathering all the information needed for the divorce and even joined a club which focuses on the rights of fathers, because unfortunatelly here I heard many many stories about how decisisons are biased towards the mothers and fathers basically lose much more than their spouses.

[This message edited by madmax76 at 9:32 AM, Tuesday, May 9th]

Madmax

Your last post indicates some indecisiveness in your household.
You keep on telling us you are committed to divorce and our advice is therefore based on that.
Yet you share that only last Sunday your wife told you that working on the relationship isn’t working. If you are committed to divorce then why did she even think that was an option?
You also mention that you have to get back to your attorney on her decision on what to pay – a decision she took over 10 days ago. Why the long wait?

I know what you are going through is tough, but it won’t get easier until YOU take action – whether that action is focused on reconciling (if even possible) or divorce.

MM, did you contact and meet a lawyer? You're SO did so and got coached, you're at an disadvantage if you haven't seen a lawyer and got to know your options.
I get the feeling that you still cling to see her reactions, that you're still amazed by her contradictory behavior. Don't wait, act. She's gonna do what's only good for her.

MM don’t hold back. Hire a PI and inform the OBS!

You owe your STBX nothing, shine a light on her actions for all to see. Those in an affair are like cockroaches they thrive in the dark.

Shine that light and inform all families and friends.

There are consequences for both the STBX and the AP and they should be held accountable for their actions. Once the D is complete inform HR as well.

One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 12:30 PM, Tuesday, May 9th]

Yes, you are totally right about my hesitation and you are also correct that I should STOP analyzing my wife and I should concentrate only about my exit strategy.
Rationally I've decided myself to go for a divorce, but emotionally I find it really-really hard to sign that paper and put an end to all of this.
Why? I cannot explain... My wife gave me absolutely nothing after DDAY1 and she was headed to DDAY2 without remorse and planned to betray me again. ('just because it felt good' - official explanation from her). This is fact. And also I wanted to add, I realised I cannot imagine doing anything serious with my wife after all of this. How can a marriage continue if one party destroyed the trust, does nothing to restore it, does not care about the fact that her spouse needs mental therapy because of her actions and she plans to do it again to hurt me behind my back, because it pleases her? No, I have to forcefully remove myself from this situation. To be honest, this is the hardest challenge in my life, because kids are also involved.

Anyways, I'll meet my lawyer next week, she asked me to bring the filled documents for the divorce.

Madmax

This is the reason I have been asking you about your commitment to divorce:

IF you are 100% committed to divorce then this is what I would suggest:
Learn about the laws and rules in your country regarding divorce. Have a good and realistic view on how this will end up. Hungary is in the EU and divorce laws in your country seem comparable to most EU countries. There is a reason for how the law is based: For example, she might have a right to part of your pension or savings made while she was a stay-at-home mom raising your kids, because your ability to focus on work at that time was partially based on not having to stay at home.
The law is fair – don’t spend your time moaning about it.
DO NOT fall into the self-pity of thinking men get the short stick and all that. Divorce is a strange mathematical enigma were having half of what you previously owned half of feels less. People that complain about divorce being unfair based on gender fall into two equally large and equally wrong groups: Men and women.

Realize divorce is two factored: There is the emotional aspect and the financial/logistics aspect. The later should be dealt with in as non-emotional way as possible.

Divorce is not an alternative form of marriage. Part of D is that you go your separate ways, so with legal advice learn how you can distance yourself from her ASAP. Move into the rental house? Have her move? Sell the home and rent or buy? It’s all inevitable if you are divorcing so getting it over makes sense.

Arguing with her now is like arguing with someone you already fired from a job. It doesn’t do any good. So don’t take part in arguments. She leaves for the evening without making arrangements for the kids? Just note it down and be even more determined on physically separating so its even clearer who is responsible for the kids that evening. Doesn’t matter why she leaves or where she goes – not your concern. She starts arguing and your response "Sorry you feel that way. I might not agree but there isn’t any need to enter this discussion."

Don’t threaten her job. This is a big issue and many won’t agree with me, but if you are divorcing it’s better for you that she has a job and an income. In fact – a judge might see you confronting her workplace about her affair as threatening or abusive (I don’t agree it is – but that’s what the legal system might see).

Don’t hesitate to be open to stakeholders about why you are divorcing. Like her parents, your parents, friends… "We are divorcing because my wife is having an affair and wont quit it". Be careful with your wording – don’t sound abusive or rude because that could be used against you. Be factual.

Provide your attorney with everything they need. Get things moving and focus on the big picture. Whether she keeps the house or not isn’t important as long as you get the equivalent money out of it. Her car overpriced by 5% and yours undervalued… As long as you are getting at least your share.

--
So what is different about this compared to wanting to reconcile?
Had you shared you believed you wanted to reconcile I would still be suggesting a lot of the above, only maybe at a slower pace.
I would be suggesting you learn about divorce and even initiate it. Accept it’s a possible and even likely outcome.
I would also suggest exposing to stakeholders.
I would also suggest not arguing.
I WOULD suggest you expose to her workplace directly.
I WOULD suggest you learn who OM is and his wife (he is married – that’s why they used a hotel).

The things you do differently if trying to create conditions to reconcile are NOT neccessarily good for divorce. Like if she lost her job it might be seen as vindictive by you and could possibly color the judge when it comes to custody. But experience shows that if the affair is made real - when friends start questioning her, when the OM drops her for his wife, when she's taken aside at work and given a warning, when she realizes food costs money... the WS starts focusing more on the positives of the marriage than the assumed negatives.

@madmax76 post #147:

Anyways, I'll meet my lawyer next week, she asked me to bring the filled documents for the divorce.

You said 'next week' a few weeks ago, my friend. In fact, you've been saying 'next week' several times already since you posted this thread.

You still do not seem to get the urgency of the matter, madmax76. I understand you have been put to an extremely difficult situation. But in the meanwhile, you have done NOTHING to get yourself out of this! Sorry to say but this type of hesitancy is not your friend. You need to instead be thinking of protecting yourself AND your children, and this type of dithering on your part is only hurting you.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:43 PM, Wednesday, May 10th]

Yes, you are right, I already admitted that my brain was way ahead of my heart and I was hesitant to make the final move towards divorce.

You can call this dithering and weakness or inability to really comprehend what happened and what that really meant for me and the marriage. It is hard to process that after 16 years my wife could change to somebody I dont know anymore.

The shocking revelation was that apparently my wife did not have any emotional doubts or dithering like me at all. Yes, she seemed to be depressed and irritated but definitely not because for what she did to me. She is playing her game and I'm just a tool or an obstacle in her universe now, nothing else.

And I'm also sure if the AP left her wife, my wife would not be here the next day. The only reason she is still here, because the AP does not want to divorce.

I dont want to support a mistress of some other guy anymore. I simply won't accept this 'role'.

You know, it is very hard to switch off the lights, because I was raised to NOT GIVE UP on anything. You can say I'm a 'fight to the last bullet' type of guy.

But I realised this is now totally futile.. Dday1 and dday2 with no remorse, no compassion, no shame.

What can I say... Time to divorce.

[This message edited by madmax76 at 8:50 AM, Thursday, May 11th]

Madmax

If anyone is perceiving you as weak or wavering… then I suggest they spend more time on personal recovery before contributing to this forum.
Your actions and reactions to-date are very typical and common for newly betrayed husbands. So far there isn’t much you haven’t done that isn’t "normal" or "expected".
Only – our experience shows that normal and expected aren’t always the best things. Sometimes normal and expected are what the WS expects and responds in ways that for us are also normal and expected.

Look honestly and frankly at your reactions towards your wife upon discovery. Basically you did a "I’m divorcing you!" [A statement] followed by "but if you end the affair, do this and do that and do this and do that then MAYBE I won’t divorce you" [a threat or ultimatum]. You might have used other words, but that’s the message you thought you were giving her.
At the same time you told US that you were 100% committed to divorce, so our advice was 100% towards that goal.

Her reaction? Well… that too is 99% predictable. Denying the affair, minimizing the affair, hiding truths (like that speel about the HR investigation… can you update us on that? I am 99% certain it was more about the workplace affair than any "bribe"). Then claiming it’s over, then taking it underground and NOW – when she thinks you might be serious about the divorce – threatening divorce…

Right now the two of you are like kids sitting at the bottom of a swimming-pool competing about who will be the first to go up for air. She’s hoping you give up, you are still hoping she will give up.

Honestly max – and be honest – IF she were to come to you and ask for another chance… what would you do? Would you still want a divorce or would you give the marriage a try? Our advice is a lot based on what you want, and we can only do that based on what you share.

I encourage you to go back to my first post on your thread.
Fact is that IF she wants a divorce and/or if she wants the affair then your only realistic option is divorce. Even if she ends the affair then if that isn’t followed up with some actions and changes your only realistic option is divorce. It’s like having a tooth pulled – you don’t go to the dentist to have a tooth pulled because you want that done, you do so because it needs to be done.

@Bigger,

It is not a matter of anyone on here "perceiving" OP as anything. What IS the matter is that a tsunami is bearing down on the OP, and he is not moving to higher ground quickly enough. Yes that is 'typical' of a lot of BHs. You know what else is all-too typical? Getting railroaded by a shrew of a WW who is at least one step ahead.

OP, please see a lawyer, NOW. You need to grasp the urgency of this situation and move faster than you have been moving.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:13 AM, Saturday, May 13th]

@madmax76

You can call this dithering and weakness or inability to really comprehend what happened and what that really meant for me and the marriage. It is hard to process that after 16 years my wife could change to somebody I dont know anymore.

It is not dithering, it is the shock of the rules of your world being turned upside down and inside out. I consider myself decisive, and I did everything wrong when the bomb went off. I even did a version of the stupid pick me dance and just wandered about for several weeks.
Process, I don’t know if anyone can process it completely. And no one who hasn’t had it happen to them can understand it.

The shocking revelation was that apparently my wife did not have any emotional doubts or dithering like me at all. Yes, she seemed to be depressed and irritated but definitely not because for what she did to me. She is playing her game and I'm just a tool or an obstacle in her universe now, nothing else.

It is shocking, and the more you piece it together the more shocking it becomes. You’ll probably discover that most of her actions were at least somewhat planned out in advance. This means she has made many decisions at your expense and without significant regard for you. This was the most difficult part for me, someone whom I had been for such a long portion of my life would so ruthlessly betray me.

And I'm also sure if the AP left her wife, my wife would not be here the next day. The only reason she is still here, because the AP does not want to divorce.

I dont want to support a mistress of some other guy anymore. I simply won't accept this 'role'.

It is said that knowledge is power, well you now have the knowledge of her intentions and what value she puts on you. Just remember you need to value yourself and not let another determine it.

update:

So today morning I found out that my wife continues the relationship with her AP. After DDAY2 (3 weeks ago), she told me she would cut all physical contact but keep the option to talk to him. Then, I told her that for me only the NC is acceptable as a bare mininum. I defined this as my personal boundary.
This morning I saw several messages on our Ipad coming from her girfriend called "Sabina". This is the real name of her female friend. They know each other from the university years. BUT, the content of those messages were very strange: like "call now", "call now!??, my wife went : "Wait until monday..", then ":(" as a reply to this. Ok I checked the phone number associated to this account and looked up for the number in the local phone registry...(got the address as well). So the name belonged to her former boss. So now I know the former boss was the AP!!! and she named this contact 'Sabina' as a deceit. ...

So I know now the full identity of the AP with phone number and address. It is because my wife was lazy / ignorant enough or was not quick enough to delete the messages. I can now inform the AP's wife. I will definitely do this.

Here we are now. After DDAY1, DDAY2 and God knows how many ddays in between and lies and deceit I busted her again.
I reached to the point of no return. The only option here is the divorce. After all of this I don't want to stay with her at all.
I tried everything from my side to save our marriage for 2 months and she delivered only further lies and deceit and yes, she cheated, backstabbed and showed zero respect to my needs. THIS HAS TO STOP.

Regarding to divorce, according to my lawyer:
- If I leave the house, I risk my chances for even the 50% custody. Because in Hungary if you leave the house, the judge will assume that you left your family intentionally for whatever reason and you are not a reliable person. To counter this, I should come to agreement with my wife regarding to child custody, allimony BEFORE I move out. The debate on assets are a total different legal proceeding.
- If I stay I have to live with this person and suffer all the pain she will throw at me. Oh, I think she definitely will. I fear my health and mental stability will suffer big time.

She does not want to leave the house. In fact, she it totally ok with the situation. Daddy pays for almost everything and babysits the children and mommy can have adventures and contact with AP as she likes. But I want to bust her comfortable fantasy life and let her feel the consequences.

I try to finally sit down with her to talk about children and assets. If I cannot make an agreement, then THIS WEEK I have to file for divorce with no agreement and the let the judge decide on all of that, which will be of course lengthy and very risky.

So sorry, MM. IHS (in house separation) is not fun. Contact only about children and the D. The emotional rollercoaster ride isn't over yet.

Sometimes, you have to let go for your own health.

Expose the affair to the AP's wife.

This will probably end the affair and
knock her out of the clouds.

He will probably throw her under the bus
and you can both be miserable at home.

Madmax

So now you know, and it confirms a lot that I’m guessing many of us were thinking:
OM is a work-colleague (already known because of the company-car).
He’s a superior – in any mid-size or larger company for a superior to have an affair with staff is a very big no-no. People get fired for this sort of thing. It’s also very rare that the staff member gets fired (like your wife) because that can open up a can of litigation.
You call him her "former" boss. As in no longer working for the same company OR as in no longer her boss at that company, but working in another department?

The reason I ask is I know companies are reluctant to take action when a manager has an affair with someone that is in his direct command-hierarchy. A very common reaction is to either move the manager to another department OR to move the employee to another manager. Even if they do the same job/task then on paper they report to another manager. The reason companies are reluctant to fire the subordinate is that your wife could insist the manager initiated, paid overtime, promised promnotions or threatened job-safety.

The strange story you shared about a HR investigation? I am willing to place money on it being an internal investigation about the affair and NOT anything to do with bribes as she told you.
I’m also guessing that if the boss is still working with the company then your wife will keep her job for a year or two but then be fired due to cut-downs or some other reason that they can justify. They will let enough time to pass so she can’t wave the sexual harassment flag.

I still think he’s married or in another relationship. You will probably hear stuff like he’s divorced or divorcing or they are going through a rough time and all that… but… if he was single or living by himself then why use company property for their trysts? If you were single and had a booty-call then why go through all the trouble if you could simply go home?

--
Please – don’t become a victim…
Don’t become one of those that insist they would divroce if they could, that they are forced to be in in-house separation, that the laws are bad or whatever… DO NOT BECOME A VICTIM!
Conditions might be dire, but you ALWAYS have options, and by choosing an option other than remaining a victim you can possibly move to a better place. From there you again have options, and can steadily progress to a better place.

I googled a bit about Hungarian divorce, and it’s relatively compatible to other European divorce. It’s my understanding that it’s best if both agree to file, and part of that process is deciding residence, custody and all that. However – if one party wants a divorce (you) there is the option to give reason, and infidelity is one of those reasons.
I think that if you were to tell your wife that you want a divorce because you KNOW the affair is ongoing and that if she doesn’t agree to file with you then your only option would be to file for infidelity… that would probably make her cooperate a lot faster.
Especially if you state you have enough evidence, mention OM name, let her know your attorney will ask a court to authorize you get company e-mails, phone records for her mobile, the reason for the HR interview, subpoena OM…
Make it clear that if she contests the divorce process you will need to go that path, but you would prefer you two complete the process as amicably as possible.

Now – be very clear on this: Infidelity won’t lessen the financial impact of divorce. She’s still eligible to what the law declares. You won’t get a "better deal" – but it will get the ball rolling so that you don’t need to be wondering why she’s all dressing up to go "out shopping" on a Friday evening.

And finally – Go back to my first post. Live your life according to this:

Wife. I love you and have always envisioned us spending our lives together. However, I have realized that there is something worse than losing you and that maybe I already lost you when you decided to have an affair. What is worse is SHARING you. At the very best that’s what you are offering me now – that I share you with OM. You might not be seeing him as-is, but your mind is still there.
I don’t share my wife.
I would prefer you not being my wife to sharing you.
Therefore, I am giving you full acceptance that you go be with OM. I don’t want to force you to remain married to me, nor do I want to be married if you aren’t committed to US.
You can date him, be with him, move in with him, talk about him with your friends… whatever. But not as my wife.

And then just move on. Don’t pretend she’s not having an affair, don’t hesitate to mention OM by name, tell stakeholders you two are divorcing because she’s having an affair with Vlad (or whatever his name is)… Just act like this is something that is real, and that you are moving out of infidelity – with or without her.

The AP who is her former boss was fired from his job and left the company in mid-April. Reason undisclosed. It might be related to the affair or might attribtued to some other internal conflict. One thing is sure, the next day, my wife was totally out of her mind and cried. I was not aware then that the AP was his boss and she told me she was down because of the 'uncertain future because of organizational change of her job'. I even tried to calm her and be nice to her and invited to come with us for some relaxation activity with kids. What a fool I was.. I was still empathic and believed her words and wanted to please her.

BTW the AP is living in a relatively poor neighborhood in a flat with his family. So compared to our standard of living it is huge step-back, they always affair down?

Just a small update on the messaging issue I mentioned in my last post. My wife was actually who pro-actively asked 3 times via messages the AP to have a phone conversation, NOT him. He told her, not now, but on Monday. (this confirms he has a family life). and then SHE was who sent the said face emoji. She was sitting on the couch with me and the kids watching a movie when she sent those messages. I think this is beyong degrading. And I also feel like the other party began to move away a bit from all of this after he learnt I have recordings of both of them discussing the next sex session. This is just my gut feeling.

But this does not change things. Yesterday she asked me to go to lawyer together. And she also mentioned that she want to keep the house and be with the children 50% or more. I said the 'or more' is unacceptable for me and looking at the case if I file based on 'infidelity' she might even lose her custody, because if I have to prove the adultery, based all of the evidence I collected, the judge might decide to favour me as one stable, honest and reliable parent and keep her as secondary. I know the children need their mother and I don't have the intention to go in this direction, just told her my oppinion. She does not know what evidence I have, but she got very scared and blamed me for documenting her actions.

After a while she calmed down and told me she went no contact with AP from today (!) and the entire affair is OVER. Well, this is the 3rd time she finished the affair. And she also told me, that even though she finished the affair, that does not mean she want to continue with me. She is hesitating on this. So same old story, she cannot decide, wants to stay, and one day she wont come home. Yes, I saw that before.

You know, what I cannot understand, why my wife cannot just say, ok, I fallen in love with somebody, thank you for the 16 years, lets be civil from now on, and divorce in peace and she packs her things and just leave. She stays because she prefers to be a cake-eater.

And that will end with the divorce.

[This message edited by madmax76 at 12:48 PM, Tuesday, May 16th]

You know, what I cannot understand, why my wife cannot just say, ok, I fallen in love with somebody, thank you for the 16 years, lets be civil from now on, and divorce in peace and she packs her things and just leave. She stays because she prefers to be a cake-eater.

I don't believe your wife is a cake eater. She is clearly ok with divorcing you. The only reason she is hesitating because she is unsure of her future with her AP. If AP is married then she will have to wait until he divorce his wife. Until then your are her safety net. You are her PLAN B. The moment her AP starts the process of divorcing his wife, your wife will end her hesitancy and her fake confusion regarding what she wants and she will proactively initiates the process of divorce or will push you to start divorce process.

So, stop trying to understand your wife's motive. It's unnecessary and pointless at this point. Just proceed with divorce process and also inform the obs.

Madmax

One of the reasons infidelity is so hard to deal with is that it’s so much fantasy. Your wife is caught up in the romance of the OM, the secrecy, the being the love-interest in a successful businessman… whatever. She envisions a divorce where she keeps the house, you pay support and alimony and you guys are all probably friends and you come over to fix her car while you and OM chat about football.
Then OM is fired and shes called over by HR (please – do you have any new info on why?) and OM isn’t willing to leave is wife and you don’t think this is fun… and the fantasy starts to clear up.

It would be a big mistake for YOU to fall into the same fantasy…
Although you can use infidelity as a reason to divorce in Hungary if your wife didn’t cooperate with filing then it DOES NOT have much or any effect on the financial and custody outcome.

I’m guessing this will go as follows:
You will huff and puff for a few weeks, threatening divorce and being angry and feeling sorry for yourself.
She will go to work, come home, be sad, pretend she’s a victim… Maybe the affair is really over – maybe she won’t talk to OM (I give it a 50/50).
In 2-3 months you two will still be married, but with unresolved infidelity…

Please Madmax – you say this will end in divorce.
Doesn’t have to… if you still want to reconcile you possibly can. But PLEASE – Divorce or reconciliation are NEITHER bad options. BOTH ARE GOOD!
What is bad is huffing and puffing and being angry and then after 2-3 months you are neither reconciling nor divorcing. THAT is BAD!