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Just Found Out :
Well, here I am.


 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 5:08 PM on Tuesday, November 8th, 2022

Nervous about meeting the lawyer.

Just thinking that since we both lawyered up, there's no chance at R.

Y'all were right. This is the absolute worst.

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8764208

blahblahblahe ( member #62231) posted at 5:44 PM on Tuesday, November 8th, 2022

When you depart a good attorney's office you will feel lighter than you felt upon entering. Not because they told you what you WANTED to hear, but because he told you what you NEEDED to hear and started a plan of action.

You have been on receiving end of your WW's plan for a long time (longer than you suspect), and now today is the day that ends.

Now you begin your plan, and remember your WW is not the person you remember, she is the person she is, control your past feelings and realize this is now all business with an adversary.

posts: 319   ·   registered: Jan. 11th, 2018   ·   location: Europe and USA
id 8764209

ChamomileTea ( Guide #53574) posted at 8:41 PM on Tuesday, November 8th, 2022

It's not necessarily true that there's no chance of R. Certainly, she would need to pull her head out of her hindquarters for that to happen, but some people are just really, really stubborn. Cheaters don't just lie to other people. The first person they typically lie to is themselves. It requires a certain amount of impetus for the stubborn ones to confront their own rationalizations, but sometimes being confronted with a conflict that won't be resolved by the other party backing down can move the dial. If she's become accustomed to you smoothing things over when there's been conflict in the past, she'll be stymied by your refusal to do that this time. You didn't back down from her anger and threats and you haven't come around for treats and courtesy. It's possible that she's having trouble figuring out where your line in the sand is, and I do think it's okay for you to clarify that. ie. "It is NOT okay for my wife to have a boyfriend."

Anyway, I don't think it's necessary to lose all hope at this point if R is still an option for you. You do have to be firm about where your boundaries are though and I think you're doing a good job of that so far. It's not necessary to go full-on NC though until you're dealing with unresponsive recalcitrance. You ARE getting some response. She's like an angry little fish, nibbling at the bait, trying to figure out how she's going to get what she wants with the least amount of resistance. Be clear with your intentions. If there's a roadmap home, you lose nothing by giving it to her. That is wholly different than following her around begging for her cooperation. You're just stating your boundaries and what's required to keep you interested in continuing the marriage.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 8:42 PM, Tuesday, November 8th]

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)Married 38 years; in R with fWH for 7

No one can make you into a liar but you.

posts: 6167   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8764226

 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 10:11 PM on Tuesday, November 8th, 2022

When you depart a good attorney's office you will feel lighter than you felt upon entering

Holy crap. This is spot on. Meeting was via phone, but almost put down a retainer immediately. All good news for me, not so much for her.

So I kinda have an action plan, but I certainly have the upper hand on almost everything if we go to divorce.

Only issue is time. How long do I want to stay in the same house???

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8764233

BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 10:30 PM on Tuesday, November 8th, 2022

She is a different person.

I beg to differ. This woman who seems like a stranger to you was always there; the only difference is that her infidelity has made it impossible for you to give her the benefit of the doubt and ignore her severe character defects.

Example: she rented a lease for her fitness business without your knowledge and consent and forced you to take out a personal loan, presumably because she would've been ineligible to obtain a business loan to start a business. And instead of paying back that loan or properly investing in her business, she's splurging on cosmetic procedures.

This alone is indicative of a person who is fundamentally reckless, selfish, self-obsessed, and lacks the capacity to genuinely love and care for anyone but herself. I'm sure you that you could provide a million other similar examples of how she's betrayed, demeaned, undermined, and mistreated you throughout the course of your marriage.

As for the topic of lawyers, please make sure that you see more than one. I'm a bit concerned that you've chosen a "men only" divorce lawyer; that sounds a bit like a marketing ploy and I don't think I would trust anyone who is dumb enough to eliminate 50% of their potential client base to get me the best settlement possible.

There's a user Barcher144 who posts in the Divorce forum who had a highly contentious and extremely acrimonious divorce from a malignant narcissist. He hired a "Men's Rights" lawyer who completely dropped the ball on his case, costing him thousands of dollars and extending his divorce process by at least 6 months. Fortunately, he fired that attorney and hired a very responsive and competent attorney to take him over the finish line. I highly recommend that you reach out to him because he could probably give you some valuable advice based on his experience regarding what to ask your attorney during your consultation and what you should look for when interviewing attorneys to ensure that you're hiring the best person for the job.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 10:31 PM, Tuesday, November 8th]

BW, age 40
Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried to a great guy

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 946   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8764236

LostInHisFog ( member #78503) posted at 10:34 PM on Tuesday, November 8th, 2022

Divorces still happen when a spouse refuses to move out. Where I live you just need to prove 1yr separation of zero support, all finances are no longer joint, credit cards are independent, proof that there is zero dependency. As impossible as it may appear, untangling yourself is doable, lawyer, bank customer service etc all can help and tell you how if you’re stuck. If the mortgage is joint, and is stopping the progress of legal separation, then your lawyer will likely tell you to sell the house. Your WW will have no choice, either she buys you out or the house is sold and there is a separate agreement of the split. Your lawyer will be able to advise you on that. Over here, when a spouse 100% refuses to sell or move a lawyer can go to court and get sole occupancy order, however, they are your absolute last resort and it can bite you in the ass if WW is racking up debts she can not pay off. This is one of the reasons, other being your credit score, why it’s crucial to cancel all joint cards ASAP as well move half the joint account savings into your sole account and make sure your paycheques are deposited there.

I feel her staying home was more to do with fear you were going to chuck her stuff out and change the locks, don’t do either of that BTW it’ll bite you big time, more than any signs of remorse. In case she is dumb enough to do either have a copy of proof you also own the property on you, keep one in car, one at work and a photo on phone, as well as the numbers of a 24/7 locksmith and local police station. If you get the locks changed on you call cops first, you will be asked to show proof, it’s at this time WW will normally put into play any false DV accusations.

Cover your ass by keeping a VR on you. You mention you keep interactions to the bare minimum but you need backup. Your WW is callous, nothing is beneath her. You also need to broach the topic of divorce, separation, her taking legal ownership of any loans that are hers and selling the house (or she buys you out if she refuses to sell), you need her response on record to play to lawyer so they understand the type of person she is but also to cover your ass in case she bullshits in court "he forced me" etc. If she breaks down, which is likely because she sounds like a giant child, simply sit back, terminate interaction, don’t answer her baiting questions, just wait out the storm, then start the conversation again, rinse repeat until she exhausts her pool of theatrics. Keep recording. If she leaves don’t chase. Call lawyer for advice if she refuses to engage in talking about it.

I’m concerned for your daughter, I think you have it handled when you’re there but you’re not always going to be there when she has to face WW. At that age her brain hasn’t reached its full development and your WWs interactions are beyond uncool with her, too erratic, too selfish. Have your daughter look up both 180 and grey rock methods and promote a stop light interaction with her and WW, for example, ‘when WW is "normal"/ safe/ "green", interact however daughter sees fit. When WW is being odd, looks to be difficult, lies are detected and the interaction is becoming rocky that’s "orange" and daughter should do the 180 method and disengage. When WW is confronting, erratic, uncomfortable, manipulative that is "red" and daughter should fall heavy on the grey rock method to detach from the situation ASAP.’ Until IC happens it’s a great tool to protect her more, especially since you’re not always there to be a buffer.

Very unusual the xOBS was so tight lipped about OM. I’ve never heard that before.

[This message edited by LostInHisFog at 10:49 PM, Tuesday, November 8th]

They can make as many promises as they want, but if they don't put action behind it, it doesn't mean anything.

I edit because I'm fluent in typo & autocorrect hates me.

posts: 300   ·   registered: Mar. 14th, 2021
id 8764237

blahblahblahe ( member #62231) posted at 11:18 PM on Tuesday, November 8th, 2022

I agree with BLUER, please interview more than one attorney.

I interviewed 3 of them (chose the 2nd one), I recommend considering this, note a good attorney is not inexpensive and is not usually based on marketing.

posts: 319   ·   registered: Jan. 11th, 2018   ·   location: Europe and USA
id 8764242

Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 12:42 AM on Wednesday, November 9th, 2022

In what way is she in a worse position if you divorce?
NC has equitable distribution of property/debts and in a long-term marriage the line between value of assets brought into the marriage and present value can be unclear.

I’m not asking this to put sand in the Vaseline of divorce, but I too am a bit concerned if the attorney fed you some… well… optimistic information.

I’m a big believer in facts and truths. Divorce is probably your only option if she doesn’t change soon, but go along that path with your eyes wide open and not with some rose-tinted view.

Remember there is a requirement for separation. For that to be valid you need to live in separate houses. I still suggest you let her know she can go be with OM.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 11130   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8764253

 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 1:55 AM on Wednesday, November 9th, 2022

I was heading out to vote with my DD when i was sending my previous post.

The attorney is not really men only. I think they popped up in the search on Google. The attorney I spoke with was great. She really knows the laws and how they work in my county. After I told the story, she said that the record of the texts would be enough to prove adultery, and the fact she vacationed alone in his town. But where I live, I have to separate for a year to even file for divorce. The issue is she won't leave. The only option I have is called a bread and board divorce. It's not a real divorce, but it allows the judge to make the decision on who stays. Unfortunately, it takes 6-9 months to get in front of a judge.

She also cautioned against fake dv. She went as far as to use my phones video instead of just audio.

She asked me if I knew the law firm my WW went to. And I did so I told her. She laughed and said she knows them well and they aren't very good. They are known for laying down easily.

And I can sue the OG for alienation of affection. She said it probably won't go anywhere. But can be used as a bargaining tool.

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8764259

LostInHisFog ( member #78503) posted at 6:10 AM on Wednesday, November 9th, 2022

If your lawyer says go for it, then go for it! The good thing about going legal with alienation of affection is, at the very least, the AP will have to fork out money to retain a lawyer and it goes on public record. Even if it goes no where you’ve made a dent in their finances and you’ve flushed the affair into public records. If they try to represent themselves it’s still on record. Don’t expect the world but if you can provide proof of how much money WW has spent for him and on him, for example her overspend on beauty products and clothing, hotels, dinners, phone bills, internet bills and the like then that is the cash you can likely try and recoup. I have read you can sue APs for partial divorce legal costs too, you’re lawyer will know what to do.

I’m sorry to read you can’t separate until you both have separate residences. At least there is a plan B, the bread and board option. However, you mentioned the bargaining chip, WW will probably be more agreeable if you attempt to sue AP, she most likely doesn’t want to make things difficult for him and might agree to sell if you don’t chase AP. THAT might finally get her to understand how serious this is.

Edit: I’d still get a couple of appraisers to come through the house so you know the evaluation. If your WW acts confused remind her she doesn’t ‘get the house’ it’s either going to be sold and split or she pays you out, either way it needs to be done. Two are better than one in case she contests the valuation.

[This message edited by LostInHisFog at 7:17 AM, Wednesday, November 9th]

They can make as many promises as they want, but if they don't put action behind it, it doesn't mean anything.

I edit because I'm fluent in typo & autocorrect hates me.

posts: 300   ·   registered: Mar. 14th, 2021
id 8764273

Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 10:21 AM on Wednesday, November 9th, 2022


I am not discouraging you from divorce, and if your attorney comes recommended and you feel "safe" with what they state then great. Go ahead. Divorce is IMHO one of only two good paths out of infidelity. As is, the other one (reconciliation) is blocked, only leaving you with this one.

To use a parable: You must make a trip to another city for some life-altering medical treatment. You have two routes, R and D. You think R would be more scenic, have better areas to stop at and even a smoother road whereas D might be a shorter but more stressful and hectic rough ride. Since they are going to the same destination, they actually go relatively parallel to each other for long parts of the way.
Only… Route R is closed due to roadwork… No matter how much you wanted to enjoy the ride and the scenery you won’t get past the big concrete blocks closing the road. Route R is no longer an option.

So, you set off on route D. MAYBE – just MAYBE – they open up R after you go some miles. MAYBE at that time you decide to switch roads. Or maybe you have gone so far along that you just want this over with. At that time, its YOUR call. Going one route doesn’t eliminate the other – if it’s open and drivable.

The absolute worst advice offered on SI tends to be legal advice – mine included. Too many differences and nuances between states and countries and procedures. What I will share though is that attorneys tend to be guarded and pessimistic in their predictions. I have worked quite a lot with attorneys (mainly on contractual work and disputes) and not once have I been told I had a clear-cut won case, despite knowing it was.
In NC adultery can impact division of assets and based on the very scant info offered it might help you in having the personal loan for her business paid off as part of her share of the marital assets. Be very careful of that personal loan you signed on – you want that dealt with OR you take it as YOUR loan because otherwise she will forfeit on it, and you end up with a collections agency after you. Guaranteed. Like it would be better for you to offer to pay up the loan in lieu of her collecting on her legal share of your savings/pension. Definitely have this in mind later when talking to attorney.
I also think that the impact of adultery on divorce/settlement can maybe be most effective as a threat. NC is one of few states that allows alienation of affection cases. Maybe the indirect threat of a) adultery being used to get a better division of assets and b) the threat of having OM subpoenaed and/or sued will offer you a chance for a more favorable settlement.

Finally – "favorable" will never be you get everything, and she gets nothing. "Favorable" can be that you keep your retirement intact, that you get 60% of the home-value, that your precious gun-collection isn’t valued in the assets, or that you pay limited alimony. "Favorible" is less than half.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 11130   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8764280

 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 1:46 PM on Wednesday, November 9th, 2022

Love that parable, Bigger. Thank you.

Per the attorney, adultery in NC doesn't much play into the marital assets. It's typically a 50/50 split, but sometimes 51/49. Where adultery comes into play is the spousal support. Married 26 years means I would have to pay spousal support for 13 years. But because she committed adultery, I have a very good chance to negotiate that timeframe or eliminate it. As far as separation, it doesn't really mean anything except we don't live in the same home. Can't even file for D until we have been separated for a year and a day. Also, NC does have alienation of affection. The attorney was straight with me and said yes, I could sue. But since he is out of state, and not knowing if the guy has any money (he declared bankruptcy in 2017), I shouldn't expect anything. But the attorney said it is a bargaining tool to be used in negotiations.

In no way did the attorney make me feel everything was unicorns and rainbows. Even with the adultery, the attorney still discussed spousal support. Bottom line, I should expect a 50/50 split of marital assets, no way to really get around that. The rubber will meet the road on spousal support and the adultery/alienation of affection leverage.

As for how things are going with the WW, I have not spoken with her since she gave ne her "apology" Sunday night. Until yesterday, she would sit in her room with the door wide open. Since yesterday she is now closing it. My DD told me they talked yesterday and my WW apologized and told her what she she did was wrong, but then kept asking her if she wanted to know WHY she did it. My DD said no and left. So she is still blaming me and the marriage for her decision.

The current issue now is that neither of us are leaving the home and we aren't talking. I asked the attorney about bread and board divorce in NC, and she said we have enough to get. Basically bread and board divorce allows the judge to decide who stays. HOWEVER, the courts are backed-up 6-9 months, so it is not a quick solution. And even if the judge rules in my favor, that's all it is, a ruling. No one will physically force her out. So not really something worth pursuing.

I asked the attorney what my next steps should be, and she said "If I were you, I would wait a little bit before making any major decisions". In the meantime, she told me to get my finances to a place WW can't get to them. So I am closing credit card accounts that are joint and moving money to an account she doesn't have access to (and she isn't on).

You all have so helpful for me while I continue to go through this mess. The advice and support are absolutely amazing and I don't think I would be in the strong position/state I am in without all your guidance. I truly appreciate all of you and I will hopefully start paying it forward on here soon.

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8764289

HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 1:56 PM on Wednesday, November 9th, 2022

So she tells your daughter she's "sorry," but clearly believes her excuses are a good reason.

There is never a good reason to commit infidelity. Not happy? Talk to your spouse about working on the marriage. If nothing changes, leave. Separate. File for a divorce. There are many,many reasons to file for a divorce. There is never a reason to cheat.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:56 PM, Wednesday, November 9th]

posts: 4848   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8764291

 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 3:18 PM on Wednesday, November 9th, 2022

I will take the advice of several of you on here and schedule other consults with different attorneys.

I have called two others and have one scheduled and waiting on one call back.

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8764298

 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 3:18 PM on Wednesday, November 9th, 2022

Double post. Sorry.

[This message edited by RoverGuy at 3:18 PM, Wednesday, November 9th]

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8764299

 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 1:12 AM on Thursday, November 10th, 2022

Interesting turn of events today.

WW wasn't home when I got home. So I chilled on the couch to read. She got home and came over and asked if we needed to talk. I took the advice from one of the responses to my original post and said I was too emotionally attached to the marriage and having this conversation now would provide no benefit for either of us. I told her that I have two more attorney's to interview and will make a decision by Friday. Then we can sit at a table with our attorney's and have a conversation. She went to go upstairs and asked if I would be interested in couples therapy. I said yes, I would have been months ago, but not now. I told her the parable from Bigger (Thank you) and said the R road is still closed. Also told her I don't think she is near ready to even begin R journey. I said the most important thing for me now (after our children) is to be a better person and that is where my focus is. The marriage is not in the top 3 priorities right now. I did ask if she was still in touch with the OM, she said no. Not since I texted his wife. I told her that wasn't even his wife, it was his EX wife. She said what are you talking about? I told her again it was his ex wife. She said the ex must have called her current wife. LOL

Anyway, that was really all we talked about. She brought up separation and who gets what and I said there is a process in place to deal with that and that's why we have attorneys. She started talking about what I need to provide her, I said, that's why we have attorneys. She accused me of not wanting to make it amicable. I know what she is doing and I didn't fall for it. I stopped the convo.

So I know I probably broke some of the 180 rules. But this is about me now. She needs to know that.

So 2 more consults tomorrow and Friday, and I WILL put one on retainer. I will tell her I am represented and further convos about separation will need to be through them.

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8764395

blahblahblahe ( member #62231) posted at 3:19 AM on Thursday, November 10th, 2022

First, well done. You handled it better than I and most people did upon discovery.

Second, whatever you do, have no sexual relations with her, it will make the adultery claim moot and thus the alimony mitigation. I say this because she sounds as if she knows her legal position is not ideal for the divorce.

Third, desperation, it seems the OM has possibly dropped her and further she sounds quite like a master manipulator..... protect yourself from charm or false claims.

Fourth, always assume you are being recorded or documented.

posts: 319   ·   registered: Jan. 11th, 2018   ·   location: Europe and USA
id 8764407

 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 6:04 AM on Thursday, November 10th, 2022

Thanks, blahblahblahe. Great advice. Didn't even consider that she would record me. Glad I didn't get pulled down the rabbit hole and i stopped the conversation whenever she tried to talk about separation

I keep thinking back to her face when I told her that who I texted was his EX wife and he was divorced. I have a suspicion that she got played by this guy. F'g poetic.

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8764412

Buster123 ( member #65551) posted at 7:02 AM on Thursday, November 10th, 2022

I keep thinking back to her face when I told her that who I texted was his EX wife and he was divorced. I have a suspicion that she got played by this guy. F'g poetic.

Good but keep the eye on the ball, focus on the D, she's not a good candidate for R by a very long shot, moreover (just like Blahblah mentioned) she could be trying to get you to fall for a false R attempt in an effort to establish that you forgave the A, so that afterwards she could proceed with the D and be entitled to full alimony, again she's lightyears from being remorseful and seems to be mostly interested in how much she will ultimately get, so go to your next two appointments, pick an attorney and get the ball rolling.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 7:04 AM, Thursday, November 10th]

posts: 2691   ·   registered: Jul. 22nd, 2018
id 8764413

The1stWife ( member #58832) posted at 9:40 AM on Thursday, November 10th, 2022

Bravo!! You had a conversation but stayed in control and refused to discuss whatever she wanted to discuss.

I see that as a major step towards regaining control of the situation, taking back your power in the marriage and restoring your self esteem. It also creates a boundary that she knows she won’t cross again and that is bringing up the D or R or alimony etc.

I always hope couples can R but if it’s not possible, I always hope the D is quick and amicable (as best it can be).

Just need to get her out if the house 👍🏻

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled.

posts: 12781   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8764416
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