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During the ramp down phase of my WW's affair where she wanted to try R but was still detaching emotionally, there was a period where she felt sorry for not "choosing" the AP, who was an expert at playing the victim. Also at some point during her affair while I still had no idea it was going on, the AP had introduced her to his Mom as the "the married one who's getting a divorce". Later on and after she had told me she wanted to try R, I found a receipt in her email for an online flower delivery service. The recipient was the APs Mom and the note said something to the effect of that she was sorry for not choosing her son. This was obviously extremely hurtful to me to discover.

Fast forward 17 years later. I did not "process" the A in a good enough way to have it be put to rest for good, and we've been trying to work on the sore spots that have resurfaced. One of the things I suggested to my WW last night as something that would make me feel better was that she write a letter to APs Mom expressing remorse for her actions and "taking back" the token gesture of sending the flowers. At this point I was undecided on whether or not I'd actually send it. I just wanted to see what her response would be.

Her response was that she didn't want anything to do with AP or his family, its been 17 years, she doesn't need to prove anything else to me, and if she did send it, it could potentially instigate AP and bring him and his family back into our lives. Also, I would look like a fool to their family and they would get a kick out of it affecting me all these years later. She views the request as unreasonable, irrational, and potentially damaging more so than healing. I will also point out that we now live halfway across the country from AP and his family, so theres not really any risk of them showing up on our doorstep.

At a core level, I want to feel like she would do anything to make the A up to me and this request seems like something simple that could even out one of the many hurtful acts that she did. I also feel that there is still an element of her not wanting to appear foolish to APs Mom, and this really triggers me because thats exactly what her mindset was when she first sent the flowers. She wanted to save face. She denies this and says its purely because she wants to protect me. I can see her point as far as not wanting to potentially invite AP and his family back into our lives at all, but the fact that she is so resistant makes me feel like she's not willing to do whatever it takes, and not willing to "go there" for me. I wished that she had instead reacted enthusiastically about writing it.

We have now both dug our heels in very deeply on this issue and would like to know what the collective wisdom of SI thinks. Am I being stubborn, unreasonable, and irrational?

You are completely right to need to process your feelings but in this case I don’t see what good it would do contacting the mom after all these years.

I think you need to let this one go.

Concentrate on you and your wife.

Am I being stubborn, unreasonable, and irrational?

A little.

My first rule is to never let the AP or anyone in AP world that they are in my head. AP may actually have some real estate in my brain, but I will never offer evidence or proof that he is anything to me. At least for now.

That said, your feelings are valid. Your wife is wrong about "not needing to prove herself" — she does, but maybe not THIS way.

Opening up the door to communication is just that. AP or AP family could get curious or intrusive, picking at whatever healing you have managed at this point.

Ww here.

Youre both right.

She is completely right that SENDING the letter would be extremely damaging and would set back both your recovery and invite more interaction beteen you guys and AP and his family. Theyre toxic people and you both deserve to have them out of your lives.

Youre right in wanting further insight into your WWs mind and development emotionally post A. Youre still hurting and part of that will naturally stir up some mistrust of her sincerity and progress in your R journey. You want insight and part of that is her spilling her guts in a letter. If i am thinking correctly here, it seems you desire further emotional intimacy with your WW, and to feel safe w that, you need her to be vulnerable first.

So... the real question, in my mind, is what is the best way for you to gain further trust and safety in the relationship? What is the best, safest way for your WW to give you the insight you need (related to APs mom)?

I think leading with your desire for greater intimacy and trust with WW and needing more insight on this issue is the best way. Asking her to come up with a way to give that to you that also makes sense to her will make her part of the process. A letter she will never send is just one way of doing that, but there are others. Sharing a journal over this, going to an MC session together to directly address this, all are good and non damaging things.

Good luck, and i hope you guys can work together as a team. Being clear on your needs and asking her help in coming up with a solution that works for BOTH of you is a good place to start.

[This message edited by MIgander at 2:28 PM, Friday, September 2nd]

GC,

I would have my WW write on the card something like "I am afraid of what my BH might do to your family if I do not do this". Perhaps written in more ambiguous way.

Send dead flowers or rotten fruit, the OM is still alive? Put in a note "this is what I should have sent"

Or just expose the OM on social media, friends family children and etc.

Confused282:

You are completely right to need to process your feelings but in this case I don’t see what good it would do contacting the mom after all these years.

It's more about what she is willing to do to make me feel like she'd do anything to make it up to me. To go the extra mile. It has nothing to do with the Mom or the AP. I don't give a sH* what they think. She apparently cares what they will think and/or do, and that really bothers me.

Oldwounds:

My first rule is to never let the AP or anyone in AP world that they are in my head.

AP told my WW that I wouldn't care once I found out and my WW went along with that narrative in order to justify what she was doing and alleviate her guilt, even in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary prior to when I even found out. I actually like the idea of my WW's AP knowing Im still thinking about him after all these years. It's kind of like the ultimate proved you wrong kind of thing. I want him to know how devastating it was to me and be concerned that this has re-entered his life. I want me on his and his family's mind.

MIGander:

I think leading with your desire for greater intimacy and trust with WW and needing more insight on this issue is the best way.

Trust is something that I feel has been regained as best as possible at this point in time. She's matured a lot as a person, and plus, works with all women now which is a relief. She knows how devastating infidelity can be very well at this point. The main desire in her writing and sending the letter is to prove to me that she will go above and beyond for me without regard for how SHE feels. I see it as taking back one small piece of the long list of wrongs that were committed. She went above and beyond to be with AP in so many ways, I think she owes it to me to go there.

survrus:

GC,

I would have my WW write on the card something like "I am afraid of what my BH might do to your family if I do not do this". Perhaps written in more ambiguous way.

Send dead flowers or rotten fruit, the OM is still alive? Put in a note "this is what I should have sent"

Or just expose the OM on social media, friends family children and etc.

I really like your train of thought :)

gaining closure (?)

Ever heard the idiom "Let sleeping dogs lie" ???!!

Go with your wife on not involving the AP/AP family in any way - no end good will come of it.

Instead - you and your wife need to work on your communications.

Planting your feet and emotionally stomping that you are right is in error. You need to pick something to work on that will be, in the end, productive towards resolving the 17 years of pain you have endured.

News Flash: You have to teach YOURSELF how to live with the memory - it is now part of you like it or not. It is part of your marriage. Like it or not.

I suggest you re-examine the state of your relationship to your spouse - there is a serious disconnect per your post.

The most important point is has her morals/integrity/boundaries improved such that your wedding vows are no longer in jeopardy of being violated?

I do not see any value in re-introducing the "other family" back into your life.

There are some other posts in JFO you should read regarding WW mindset and people have posted regarding that topic and how the WW must change themself going forward for the marriage to be successful.

You have some work ahead of you to do in order to find happiness.

Yeah, I would agree that sending the letter is a bad idea, but I would also agree that her unwillingness to do whatever it takes to help you through this is also problematic. There is no statute of limitations on the pain from infidelity. You needcwhat you need. That is not to say that she should be punished, but rather, she should demonstrate compassion and empathy.

I would look a little deeper, beyond the flowers. I think that you may nit be as happy with your decision to R as you might think. Bones always wick their way to the surface, no matter how deep we bury them. You may have unresolved issues that you have not dealt with. If I had to guess, this has more to do with you feeling like your WW'S plan B, even years later. No man should be a plan B. It is soul crushing. So in that sense, I don't think you were asking for a letter. You were asking her to show you that you were and are her plan A. In that sense, she failed.

No contact means NO CONTACT. It's been seventeen years. Why would it seem like a good thing to you to break contact after all that time?.. to prove you can manipulate your WW into some kind of action regardless of how counterproductive it might be? Her reasoning was pretty much right on target. What's she supposed to say, "my husband is still stewing on this seventeen years later, so just know that I'm not at all sorry I didn't stay with the AP and I never was"? Which part of that sentence do you believe is the takeaway, because I'm thinking all you're doing is confirming for the AP that he's still relevant and living rent-free in your head.

Fast forward 17 years later. I did not "process" the A in a good enough way to have it be put to rest for good, and we've been trying to work on the sore spots that have resurfaced.

What work did you two do exactly? I am curious to know. Have you had IC?

You have some work ahead of you to do in order to find happiness.

Yes. It seems you have stayed married and probably talked about it quite a bit, but there is a lot more to it.

What specific things did she do back then to show her commitment?

Which books did you two read?

Did you both do IC? MC? For how long?

Who did you tell? What type of consequences did your WW face? Did you have a support system?

I really agree that this somewhat odd request 17 years later shows that you have not healed at all; you simply let time pass. There is work to be done--by both of you.

hippo16:

The most important point is has her morals/integrity/boundaries improved such that your wedding vows are no longer in jeopardy of being violated?

I feel confident that she’s a safe partner now. At this point, Im not really sure why Im making such a fuss over the letter. I think it may have even had something to do with the conversation we had in the moments before the letter idea came up and the way and tone with which she shot down the whole idea. Before it came up, we had been talking about how at that time she felt very lonely because I had ramped up my motorcycle racing. I thought we had a secure enough relationship to where we were safe to pursue our own outside interests. I was wrong. But the thing is that I was doing just as much racing the two years prior, including the year we got married. So maybe thats how she felt, but its not like something had changed that year in regards to my time spent racing. It was maybe a few weekends a month for 6 months of the year. She even admitted at one point that the guy was such a good manipulator that even if I had been a model husband and around all the time, she may have fallen for it, and that it wouldve been harder, but not impossible for it to have happened. So although she loves to try and assign some amount of blame on me, there are things that dont add up. Why marry me in the first place if I was gone too much and made her feel alone? When I feel blamed for her A in any way at all, I get into a bad headspace. The shooting down of the letter idea was the cherry on top. I dug in.

Someone said on this forum that a good wayward should be willing to crawl through broken glass for their BS. My wife said she’d rather do just that than write a letter to APs Mom.

Justsomeguy:

I think that you may nit be as happy with your decision to R as you might think.

Im Ok with the decision to R. Happy with it even. I feel like we have a pretty good marriage aside from this issue which has come back to haunt me. Admittedly I do sometimes engage in "what if" thinking over if it would have been better to D at the outset. Ill never know what wouldve happened. Couldve been better or worse as far as who I met next and how my life went. My main gripe is getting her from what I think is an low average grade C wayward to an A. She may be a B now after alot of work, but its things like this that prevent me from seeing her as a grade A recovered wayward. Overall we are compatible and I do love her alot.

If I had to guess, this has more to do with you feeling like your WW'S plan B, even years later.

I think plan B only applies if the WS still maybe pines for the AP in a wistful way as if they were the one that got away. Thats not my WW at all. If fact its the opposite. Shes thankful for my forgiveness and she knows well that the AP was a grade A POS. She’s indifferent to him now. Its me who is struggling with letting go of hatred. He held her arms down the first time they had sex and used his weight on her so she couldnt move. Then scared her into continuing it. He boxed her in, trapped her on an airplane the first time he touched her. There are very, very good reasons to hate this guy. I mean would you hate someone who raped your wife and brainwashed her? Its not your garden variety AP and its not as easy to just "let it go" as some here like to think. Anyway, AP was her plan B when she felt like I wasnt giving her enough attention.

Chamomile:

The fact is I dont feel like Ive gotten an acceptable apology for her giving flowers to APs Mom. Thats what this all most likely boils down to. And shes not that good at apologizing. She is good at deflecting, minimizing, and catastrophizing my feelings.

What does giving flowers to APs Mom say about her A? To me it says that she made promises to AP and his family that they would be together. As well as she felt sorry for AP and wanted to save face and leave her affair with a nice aftertaste for all those involved on APs side. But not so sorry for me. I had to play the pick me dance for months while she sympathized with AP and his Mom. I didnt deserve that. I was not a bad husband. Id like to hear her say something like:

"It was wrong for me to have sent his Mom flowers and Im disgusted with myself for trying to save face for leaving a relationship that I never should have been in in the first place. You didnt deserve that at all. Im amazed beyond words at your resilience towards some of the horrible things I did like this back then. Its jaw dropping and I didnt deserve your forgiveness. You are an amazing man that has shown me the meaning of deep love and its agonizing for me to see you in this much pain. I will do anything and everything possible to make it up to you and prove myself worthy of your forgiveness."

And maybe if she said something like that in a sincere way as well as dozens and dozens of times, I wouldnt feel like I have to "manipulate" her into anything.

OwningItNow:

What specific things did she do back then to show her commitment?

Which books did you two read?

Did you both do IC? MC? For how long?

Who did you tell? What type of consequences did your WW face? Did you have a support system?

She wrote me a letter of apology and vowed to make it up to me and prove her worthiness and loyalty over time. After I exposed the affair to their supervisors and he was fired, she never spoke to the guy again nor attempted to contact him. She hasnt read any books except for I had her read "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" earlier this year. I on the other hand have read that book as well as "After the Affair", "Not Just Friends", and "Hold Me Tight".

We went to MC for months after the A and I went to IC for years. Suffered from crippling anxiety attacks as a result of the A for a few years. We went back to MC this year and ended MC after several visits once things felt like they were in a good place and there was nothing left to discuss. Im currently seeing two different therapists for IC and we have an emergency session scheduled with one for tomorrow to talk about this specific thing.

Yes I do have a support system. Two close friends who are not on the side of the marriage (mainly since I vent to them alot) and my Mom who is on the side of the marriage but wasnt initially post A. Mom is a therapist, so cant get much better

Not much in the way of true consequences although she would strongly disagree. I think she sees herself as a victim and that nothing she does is ever good enough for me.

The fact that we have actually done alot, but it seems from the outside as if hardly anything has been done, is disheartening. It may also just be that you are all just seeing a very narrow window of the bigger picture. People tend to post their problems and roadbumps on here and not so much their successes, so its easy to assume "nothing has been done" and "you have a long road ahead". I actually dont feel we have much further to go here. Hope Im right.

[This message edited by gainingclosure at 12:30 AM, Saturday, September 3rd]

There are times when I want my fwh to reiterate to the OW that she was being used and that what they had wasn’t real.

But then I stop and realize he dumped her and chose me, our life, our marriage and hasn’t spoken to her in almost 3 years.

She knows.

I personally hate that I give her any space or energy today.

My advice…..don’t breathe life into something that is dead and should never have grown in the first place.

[This message edited by Howcthappen at 1:01 AM, Sunday, September 4th]

And maybe if she said something like that in a sincere way as well as dozens and dozens of times, I wouldnt feel like I have to "manipulate" her into anything.

What would you call it then? You just described a whole imaginary scenario of what would be an acceptable way for your fWW to handle this latest trigger. It's specific, it's detailed. It's like you've got this idea in your head and you're trying to make it come alive. The problem is though that you can only control you, no one else. You can't choose another person's actions for them. All you can do is decide whether the treatment you are receiving is acceptable or not. If it's not.. that's an answer.

My advice…..don’t breathe life into something is dead and should never have grown in the first place.

Spot on.

Why is this so important? It’s decades ago. The people are different now. Why the need to stir the pot?

I agree with almost everyone else, the letter is not a good idea.

Has she explained what she was thinking and offered an apology? I think you've hit on what you really need and she should be able to do that for you if you ask.

This is not a good idea. You need something more from her, but breaking NC isn’t one of them.

Gaining, a few random thoughts:

--These issues that are still creating turmoil are definitely 'you' issues. Yes, you feel that you rugswept. Yes, for whatever reasons, these issues have recently resurfaced. But what it looks like is that you are trying to get your wife to resolve your issues with wishing/suggesting/imposing certain actions.

--Your wife has grown into who she is today. Whether you perceive that as bad or good is your reality. From what you have described, I would guess that she has grown since then and proven to be a decent partner, but maybe never had a lot of empathy....especially around the infidelity. I am assuming that in other aspects of your marriage, you have been satisfied.

--I know that it is said that there is no statute of limitations on infidelity, but in reality, there are. Everything is NOT on the table anymore. A letter to AP's mother 17 years later is a good example. Your wife said she would rather crawl over broken glass than do this. Why would that be? Because she still cares for AP, or is it more than likely that it seems like an odd request after so many years....that has more potential for harm than good?

--In my opinion, the biggest issue that comes from her side is her empathy to your resurfaced pain. Some of your prior postings described her as more annoyed than concerned, but I don't know if that was just a one-off type situation. This is where I do believe that there are no statutes of limitations--helping the partner you betrayed when they are hurting. Is she doing this to your satisfaction? And if not, why are you accepting of this?

I had to play the pick me dance for months while she sympathized with AP and his Mom. I didnt deserve that.

^^^^This is why I am saying that you are dealing with 'you' issues. By no means did you deserve that treatment, but in another vein, you did NOT have to play the pick me dance. You chose to do so. That is totally on you. And don't get me wrong, I did some pick me moves too, shortly after after discovery, but I recognize that was my own wrongdoing. I simply didn't trust my evaluation of my own worth at that time. But that's on me.

Sisoon often states that after infidelity, the BS heals the BS, the WS heals the WS, and you both heal the marriage. It really sounds like you are struggling on healing yourself, and until you resolve this issue, these fractures will most likely reoccur. The healing may come in unexpected ways. It could be as simple as redefining your personal boundaries. It could be a show of concern from your wife. But I don't think that it will come by having her relive the past.....especially when she has attempted to grow up from that younger version.

I guess I'm the loner...

Sounds to me like she doesn't want to lose face to AP's mom (and maybe even AP).

GC - you tell horror stories of her time with him describing sexual assault. Then she feels bad for not staying with him?

Those 2 sentences don't go together.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 7:42 PM, Saturday, September 3rd]

You are letting a bad time in your life decades ago ruin a good time in your life now.

My H planned to D me during his affair. That was 9 years ago. He admits it was one of the biggest mistakes and regrets if his life.

Why would I want him to write the AP a letter now telling her he never really was going to D me?

The OW would not care. She’s moved on.

Why would I insist on humiliating my H almost a decade later?

Why would I put any weight on something that was a stupid thing to do and is over?

If your W has been a changed person and a great wife, why aren’t you seeing that? Focusing on the past with something that is / was a stupid thing to do baffles me.

Context is everything. Your wife isn't objecting to writing a letter because she doesn't want to hurt AP or his mother or manage their impression of her. She is correct that writing this letter nearly 2 decades after the affair ended would do nothing except stir up craziness and give AP and his family a window into your lives.

To make matters worse, I think AP would delight in knowing that he's still a source of turmoil in your marriage and is living rent-free in your head. In short, the letter would have the opposite of your intended effect.

As for the idea that your wife should blindly agree to everything you request as a condition of R, I consider that absurd. She's an adult who is entitled to her own opinion. The most important thing during disagreements like this is that she shows you compassion and argues in good faith.

Lastly, if it gives you any measure of comfort, I seriously doubt that AP's mother received the flowers and thought, "Oh how kind of her!" She was probably pissed to learn that you weren't separated and that her son was your wife's sidepiece. I know that if I ever got a letter from an ex of my son saying "I'm sorry I didn't choose him"-- as if she was a contestant on The Bachelorette-- I'd be disgusted by her narcissism and toss those flowers straight into the trash.