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Heartbrokenwife23

at what point along your healing journey did YOU (WS) feel that you were "deserving" of some leniency from the BS (ex. not having snarky comments around the A thrown around after every conversation, the BS showing you some grace/softness for your consistent/hard work, etc.)?

I know that my WH could literally move mountains and fly to the moon and back and it wouldn’t be enough. I suppose since we are trying to move in the direction of R, at some point I need to be better and not bitter towards my WH.

Hmmm . . . our relationship wasn't exactly like this but something kind of close. There was a point at about five years post infidelity when my husband was dealing (poorly) with some of his own FOO hurts and it was (negatively) affecting our relationship. I would try to talk to him about something I needed help with, and he was angry that I was not happy because he did so much to try to help me be happy - he would feel inadequate when I wasn't happy. I would manage my feelings, de-escalate, all the stuff. But I wanted to talk to someone who would be helpful. I finally told him, you can deal with your stuff so we can have a close relationship, or I will stop coming to you and talk to my girlfriends instead. I prefer being close to you. Please choose. It wasn't a matter of "deserving" a close relationship, it was whether or not he actually wanted a close relationship and was willing to do what HE had to do to get it. Maybe you don't want that with your husband. I think that might be OK? People can be imperfectly married. I think most people are in fact imperfectly married. Maybe you are happy with a lot of the relationship but sometimes you get bitter and need space. Or maybe it will just take a long time. A lot of things take a long time.

Heartbrokenwife23,

In re-reading my answer I can see that I didn't directly respond to you, but embedded in my answer is that I did think I deserved to be listened to sympathetically, I didn't feel entitled to that from him but I let him know I preferred talking to him, and I was (after lots of figuring stuff out) able to meet that need/desire in a healthy and intentional way with him knowing completely what was going on.

How important is it that your BS spouse noticed your changes and said, " I trust that you won’t do blank again."

It’s like my husband wants to feel like I feel somewhat safe with him. That I believe in his growth.

For me, just the fact that he did it means that no amount of growth removes it from the realm of possibilities.

He seems so broken from knowing this. What did you expect when you pulverize a person’s heart and belief?

I think "trust" is a broad category. My infidelity was over 30 years ago. If my husband had remained permanently hypervigilant, suspicious of my every move, requiring verification of where I was and with whom for several years after D-Day, I wouldn't have blamed him, but I also wouldn't have stayed in the marriage. I would have taken responsibility for his broken trust, recognized that it wasn't a healthy dynamic for either one of us, and moved on.

Now, if I do something that can reasonably be construed as suspicious, or he's just in a vulnerable place and wants reassurance, that to me is a natural and permanent consequence of what I did. I can't claim to be incapable of it. Eight years ago, he came to me and asked me to explain why I had deleted WhatsApp from my phone. I had installed it at the request of my child's school; she was on a student exchange trip, and the app was the most effective means of communicating with a large group of parents. When she got home, I left it there until I needed more storage space, and then it was part of a general purge. I wasn't the slightest bit offended that he confronted me. I just felt awful that I had created the concern.

He seems so broken from knowing this. What did you expect when you pulverize a person’s heart and belief?

This is such a reasonable question, How.

For me, during the affair and also other times during our marriage, I wasn't thinking of him. I was only thinking of the attention I was getting from the AP. I was selfish and lacked empathy. I know now, after years of reading and discussing with my BS that I caused him immeasurable pain and that there will always be a question in his mind if I'm holding back information.

My BS believes that I've never truly figured out what my "whys" are. Do you feel that way about your BS?

Not fully. I do believe there was childhood trauma that he buried and can’t remember or something like that. He says his childhood was happy but I have my doubts.

Meant to write a quick thank you and acknowledgment in regards to my last post here.

H/O

My WH has had so many personal things come up that he has to face on top of everything else. I can see he’s struggling trying to balance it all … thinking he very much could break at any point in time. I don’t know what I get from being snarky, I know that it’s just something I’ve always done - maybe I use it as a shield of some sort. Being snarky does also keep me bitter and in an anger like state, which maybe makes me feel less vulnerable. I stopped my own IC because I didn’t like them, I’ve been looking into some other options. Hopefully I can start up again in the new year and correct some of my own destructive behaviour.

Pippin

I definitely think many marriages out there are imperfect. I know mine was/is definitely one of those. I’m definitely a bitter person and can hold a grudge like none other. I’m definitely not proud of this, I can’t help it and I’m unsure how to fix it. I do believe my WH is definitely worthy of some sort of praise as he’s been fully committed to me and our children for the past 14 months, but then there is this little devil sitting on my shoulder at all times reminding me of what he’s done. All I have to do is think of it for one second and I instantly go into "fuck you" mode. Even though, the angel on the other side try’s to remind me all that he’s done/been doing to make things right.

Heartbroken-

I get it, believe me. Try the book "rising strong" by brene brown. I think some of her concepts will help you look at it from different angles.

Your ws needs to be responsible for his own coping skills. Which is kind of a lot of the work a ws does to become a safer partner.

I had that reaction to therapy, because it seemed to be talking all around what I came in to fix which was my pain. But it was through trusting the process that before you can address that you have to develop self awareness/understanding over what patterns we have that do not serve us and learning to recognize where they come from so that we can keep halting them earlier and earlier in the process until we have a different reaction altogether. Change is hard and takes a lot of time.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:51 PM, Thursday, December 12th]

We are 10 years out from my FWH’s long term affair and I am struggling again, like I have off and on for a very long time. H was very supportive for a couple of years but eventually got tired of hearing about my pain, me asking questions, etc. He started getting defensive when I would mention anything, I would get upset, we would argue, I would cry….not productive at all. In all other ways, he’s been a model FWH. I started just keeping things to myself to keep from rocking the boat but now I want to talk about it again because this many years is a long ass time to try to heal on your own. It wasn’t worth the damage to my mental health and it makes me nervous to think about going down that path again. I’m not sure I could take it if I initiated a conversation and was brushed off or we had a big fight. I’m pretty fragile right now and I just restarted therapy for the 4th time.

WS - have any of you been in this situation? Like you were initially supportive but got tired of the whole situation and would shut your BS down? Have you changed and started being open to their questions and emotions again, developed more empathy or just evolved as a human? If so, what changed? Did you see BS struggling and feel bad enough to change? Did you have to go back to MC to see it? Was it guilt and shame that made you avoid talk or references to the A?

BS only.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:40 PM, Wednesday, December 18th]

BS only

This thread is dedicated to BS questions for WSes.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:43 PM, Wednesday, December 18th]

I had hoped someone meeting the criteria of these last two posts would emerge.

I can only tell you my experience as a ws and how I look at it, in hopes something in there will be helpful.

The first year was very rough for me to come to terms with what I had done. It was hard for me to get over my huge emotions and shame enough to be able to let his pain fully come in.

I went to therapy that entire year plus the two months leading up to my confession. And by about the 10 month mark my husband asked me for a divorce.

I would never advise a bs to ask for a divorce unless it’s what they wanted but I do think that therapy can help you come to terms with your personal outcome does not have to be tied to your marital outcome. By embracing what you will accept and won’t accept and letting go of what outcome you wish could happen, clarity can be found. Otherwise you will continue in a maze of cognitive dissonance while you slowly lose track of your needs.

Often times, I think the ws banks on you not going anywhere. They have an illusion that time will mend it and that they can’t help you get there. But, upon seeing someone who respects themselves enough to put in place boundaries that can make them reevaluate, because if they wanted to lose you they would have already left.

So I am not saying feign strength, or make ultimatums. I am saying start putting yourself back together and focus on what you need. Start putting a plan in place for your exit so if the time comes you have already worked through logistics and also it’s a mental thing to realize you will be okay without them.

Ultimately, the ws needs to come to a place where the pain of not changing is greater than the pain it would take to work on things. And if not, they are never going to do it and you have your answer.

For me, after I started really understanding the damage of what I did, I have never again bristled at discussing it, bringing it up, helping him through triggers. And that is what remorse looks like. Guilt and shame can be very big and seeing the pain inflicted on top of that can be overwhelming. Therapy helped me gain enough compassion for myself that I could put it away and let his in more.

As for marriage counseling I do think it can be helpful but not before individual therapy at least by the ws, because you can’t fix a marriage with a broken person still in it. They have to work to get to clarity before they can have a positive effect on the relationship. And the bs needs to heal to a certain extent in order for the relationship to be worked on. So I think MC is a good tool if you have a remorseful ws, but if not then it will be like beating your head against the wall because they can’t see what you are talking about, they can only see their pain.

I hope this helps. Protect yourself- your energy, your resources, and your sanity. If your ws will do the work and you are still willing to work things through with them, great. But without that clear intention from the ws you are always going to be driving the repairing the relationship and that is intolerable after betrayal.

Hello, me again so soon …

At any point did you ever think your BS was a "chump, pushover, weak, pathetic, dumb" (you get the picture) for staying and agreeing to work on R?

I know at my core my WH is extremely grateful for a "second chance," however, sometimes I wonder what kind of "message" I’m sending after what he’s done.

HBW

While i’m not in the situation you described, I’d still like to offer some of my thoughts.

I think it takes incredible courage to want to try and R with someone who has betrayed you so badly. You’re probably at war with yourself; one side telling you to kick him to the curb while the other is willing to give him another chance. A chance which he is neither owed or deserved.

You say he is grateful for this gift you’re offering, only time will tell if he is sincere. Watch his actions and efforts to see if they’re genuine. Any WS who thinks you’re pathetic or weak isn’t R material. If he secretly feels that way, the mask will eventually slip and you will know for certain.

At any point did you ever think your BS was a "chump, pushover, weak, pathetic, dumb" (you get the picture) for staying and agreeing to work on R?

No. I suspect she felt that way, particularly after the 2nd and 3rd Ddays. I was sincere in my vows to change each time. I finally, after the most recent (nearly 12 years ago), did the work, made the changes, and became the safe partner she always deserved me to be.

We're still together and there's warmth and shared interests, but the damage (caused solely by me) was done and cannot be erased. We've spackled and rug-swept our way to a life together that is, while acceptable, certainly not what she bargained for at the outset.

For which I feel ineradicable guilt and shame.

At any point did you ever think your BS was a "chump, pushover, weak, pathetic, dumb" (you get the picture) for staying and agreeing to work on R?

No, never. I did feel that way about myself for believing some highly implausible lies by the OM.

I am sorry if this has already been asked. I tried to read as many post as I could.

My WS left me who he has been with for 27 years.
I worshipped the ground he walked on, am in very good shape, have always taken care of myself. I am not overly emotional. Not a screamer or yeller. We never fought. I have always been faithful & loyal. Our house is spotless. I make very good money & trusted him completely so I never demanded access to everything (I did have access...hence how I eventually found out on accident).

Anyway she is overweight, not attractive (and I am not saying that to be mean). She is very promiscuous. She has cheated on my DH multiple times after he moved in with her & told him. She even gave her number to a guy right in front of my WS. She does not have a job. She lives on the government. Since they have been together for a year she had one job but lost it because she called in sick to much in two weeks because she was hung over. She has lost custody of her kid. Her house is a pig pen and looks like a hoarder lives in it. She is a drunk as is her mother. She has physically attacked my WS multiple times. Threatens him constantly. Has called the cops on him. She used to be on an escort dating website. She has contacted me trying to tell me things my WS has "lied" about. She has contacted my WS ex wife of 30 years & trash talks my WS and calls him stupid & dumb. She treats him like poop & he isn't nice to her either. (I saw 3 months of their text between each other WHILE they were living together) and it was NOTHING but fighting, name calling, threats, breaking up.

But in ALL that my WS still chose her.

WS Was your affair an EXTREME affair down & toxic, and if yes and you realized it why did you stay in the affair?

Was there any WS that "chose" their AF over their BS and later regretted their decision?

Hi-

Here is the thing, his affair has nothing to do with who you are. If he was a mentally healthy person there is no way he would be doing this.

Your husband is text book in active addiction. There are some great articles out there by Frank Pittman on "romantic infidelity" that will describe your husbands behavior to a T. Read the limerance description on Wikipedia even.

I did have an affair with someone who was not nearly as good of a choice for me as my husband. But what you may not realize is it wasn’t about him either.

What I made happen, and what your husband made happen was a way to make himself feel better at first. Sometimes when you have a terrific spouse (I did and it sounds like your husband did too)but you don’t love yourself or feel deserving of them, you will gravitate towards someone easier to impress. This allows for you to play this fantasy role in your head that you are younger, sexier, more interesting, more powerful, or whatever it is you wish to be more of. Esther Perel, who I am not big on, gets it exactly right when she says a lot of people cheat to meet a different version of themselves.

Typically this type of affair spawns from some sort of existential crisis - in fact I know for women the largest growing group who have affairs are right around 40 and it’s part of a mid-lofe identity crisis. Sometimes it follows after a death or sickness in the family, or all sorts of scenarios that go beyond the persons coping skills. So the person starts leading this double life and acting in ways that are not in their normal personality traits.

An affair creates large doses of adrenaline and dopamine, and for someone in a depression/identity crisis state it becomes the only source of artificial happiness. They have numbed themselves to the degree that only those large doses can be felt. Think about people addicted to gambling or shopping- it’s the same thing usually. They start taking more risks and they get so addicted to that feeling it becomes all encompassing and compulsive. That’s why you see such large amounts of texting, people often lose their job because they can’t focus on anything else.

What is likely happening is he has ignored who she really is because he is so focused on the validation being true. You hype the AP because if they are shit so is the validation you are getting. He feels like he has the power in the situation and it’s really over both of you. There is sort of him that feels sure he could have you back regardless of the truth. He needs to see that window close because reality is the only thing that can make him start to say "I need help". He does need help. He needs to go to therapy, he needs to block this woman, and he needs to gain his equilibrium.

Could he come back? Likely. But this is addiction and you need to detach from him and irk towards your own healing. He didn’t leave because you are not good enough, he left because he is addicted and is still chasing his high. When she can’t do that for him anymore he will start cheating on her too. Without intervention from a professional health professional at a time that he has hit rock bottom and knows he wants to change, nothing he does will seem logical at all.

This isn’t about love or happiness. This isn’t about you or her. This is a sickness that only he can decide to come out of. It may help him to think the door is closing in his marriage because deep down I doubt he is ready for that. But it certainly will help you to shut the door at least for now and focus on what you need moving forward. Best to you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:27 PM, Friday, January 24th]

hikingout

Thank you so very much for the time & energy you took to respond to my message. I don't know how I can feel better in the nightmare that I am in but your post did make me feel better, breathe better & even not take it personal in a way.

I actually have never heard of Frank Pittman. I went & looked him up & read a PDF on the different affairs.

The Romantic Affair, The Dumb Man Affair & the Spider woman really hit me in so very many areas.

The romantic affair is him to a t.

Our son actually said "Dad is with who he is, and dressing the way he does because that is how he feels about himself. (My husband used to be the cleanest most snazzy dresser, and since he has been with AP his hygiene or the way he dresses has not been the same)

In fact all his clothes are still with me minus the small suitcase he took.

There has actually been multiple crisis in our family. Loss of loved ones that should not have died.

My husband knows he needs help, he has said so multiple times but hasn't gotten the help.

As far as rock bottom. I don't know what that will be as VERY VERY bad things have happened to him all last year. Things that I would think "Oh this it the bottom." Yet he ran back again.

I guess as pathetic as it sounds... since I am finally ready to drop the rope. Wave the white flag of surrender that I am not what he wants, and no matter how much I love him it is not feeling his needs.. I guess there is just a part of me that hopes some of me will be missed.

I know how pathetic it sounds even writing it out.

Well said, hikingout.

Devasted2024 - you are not pathetic but yes, you want to be missed. We all do, even by people we don’t have much time for. There is a need to be needed/wanted, so I understand that.

You WH has made a choice and he is choosing to stay where he is. It’s difficult to understand why someone chooses someone "lesser" when it’s often a combination of things that puts them down there. It’s easier to be where he is than to make the effort of being who he knows he should be every single day with you. He probably feels he doesn’t deserve you and doesn’t come up to all those good things he sees in you. Your WS doesn’t like who he is and so he has found a match in OW. And it probably didn’t take much to get her attention. He may see this as his true self. Some people self-sabotage because they can’t cope with having things so good – there has to be a catch, right? Someone who is looking to trip you up. And the happier you are, the better the marriage, the more successful the career, the further and harder you’re going to fall. So you might as well take yourself there since you’re convinced it’s going to happen anyway. And it’s what you deserve, isn’t it? You don’t deserve this house, this wife, this happiness, this good fortune, so you find a way to push it away and tumble down.

Sometimes it’s a slide, other times there’s a catalyst whereby something happens and the WS thinks "oh shit, everybody knows I’ve been faking it, I’ve been found out". He doesn’t believe he deserved anything better. So, in his mind, he now has what he deserves and he’s kind of comfortable with it.

Where there is loss, there is a void to be filled – usually with anything to take away the pain, the memories, the guilt, and the constant feeling of "what’s the point?" It’s an escape and since there is a lot of arguing, shouting, blaming, drama, etc then it blocks out having to deal with grief directly. Or it helps him avoid dealing with his own mortality.

There is nothing you can do to help him, so don’t try. What has happened to him is nothing to do with you – this is HIS problem. As for the OW, stop taking her calls. He’s her problem now. Don’t take his calls or respond to his texts. If he wants to change, then only he can do that. And the first step is to get help. Get off the alcohol, the drugs and the addictive lifestyle he has chosen. But the longer is goes on, the less likely it will be. And he is no longer the man you knew.

In the meantime, have you looked at some of the target posts? It may help to read them.
https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/361740/great-posts-for-newbies-to-read-/
https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/532395/another-great-post-for-newbies-to-read/
And, of course, the articles section in The Healing Library tab on the home page.

Try to detach and look after yourself. That’s the best thing you can do. Hugs. UKg.