SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Also I want to say I have waffled over the years about whether or not I truly was being neglected as he built that business or if I was just lost in an abyss of unwellness.

The reason I have been more forthcoming lately about our pre-a marital issues is because he is currently building another one. I can see what was happening back then happening right in front of me again, but this time I am a different me. And we both agreed it to be wise for me not to have a big role this time.

So, I want to point out, while I feel more strongly that I was right about that when I said it here in my earlier years, it’s completely manageable by a woman who knows herself and communicates and can navigate this differently.

This is a normal marital issue when you are in a long term relationship. People need to be able to be passionate and distracted by that passion from time to time. Relationships should have elasticity. This is more proof the affair wasn’t based on this real or perceived neglect. It was caused by someone who was asleep at the wheel - and that person was me.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:05 PM, Wednesday, March 12th]

I have a question for the WS that had an affair with physical sexual contact (kissing and touching) but NO PIV or oral.

What were you actually doing it for? What were you getting?, Why did you not have PIV?

Bruce-

I am not sure we have a ws here that fits that description. We have had a few in the past that I remember but haven’t seen them for a long time.

I can answer you in a general way. The answer is that when people have an affair they are often either trying to bolster or avoid something in themselves. For me, I wanted to feel cherished by someone. I wanted to feel younger, sexier, more exciting. The ap was there as my validation of these things.

While there was a physical component to my affair, that really wasn’t the driver for me. It was more like a side effect. In having this "relationship" and "being younger/sexier" the sexual aspects were more of an escalation rather than something I started out thinking would happen. I didn’t just think "I would like to do that old guy" There was no real drive there for me. It was flirting and then me feeling like I still had it and that was what I was really seeking.

In other words, if there had been kissing or touching but no sex it would not have mattered to me at all. It mattered to him more. And so affairs end up being a lot of bad trades.

In your case your ws is male and perhaps even if he did get into it for sex he may not have been able to get the woman to go all the way there. The ap in my circumstance had various affairs and some of those only got to a kissing stage.

Hikingout

Thank you for your kind response, In my H case he was being offered PIV & oral but never took the offer. Very confusing as he is very sexually driven.

Hmmm. Is this something that you believe is true? I believe it could be true, I am just asking because I wanted to understand the nature of your question. What is his answer as to why it didn’t happen?

I supposed someone can be sexually driven and think they might want to have a full fledged affair but back out because they just can’t?

I will pm someone that may be able to help I just don’t know how often he pokes in. He came here around the same time I did, but he answers things here from time to time.

I was able to catch up on the emotional affairs thread, Bruce. I don’t have anything to add. It seems it kept going likely because the ap wanted to keep pursuing him and he took what he did but didn’t want to cross the line. I do think many men have this imaginary line and it’s not where the line should be but until there is an actual act and an orgasm it may be easier to justify one’s behavior.

Need some insight …

As a WS, what is it exactly that you’re looking to "get out" or accomplish from IC? As a BS, what should we be hoping you "get out" or accomplish from IC?

My H started IC back in August 2024 and goes monthly. He’s open and shares about his sessions with me in detail and for the first few sessions I think things were heading down the right track. But lately, I’m not so sure if they are even on a track anymore. By the sounds of it they talk about 10 different things in an hour and I’m wondering how productive that is?

My H made the comment to me the other day that he just likes talking to his therapist about "normal" everyday things (our kids, the therapist’s grandkids, weather, etc). Like wtf?! You only see him once a month and you just want to shoot the shit with him at $200 per hour?! Pretty sure that’s not why you’re attending therapy, but ok.

So needless to say I’m kinda lost. At least with our MC I felt like he was getting it, I was getting it … we were getting it and hearing each other (I put a pause on MC back in July 2024 and haven’t been back). But now, I’m not really sure what’s going on as that safe space for communication for the both of us isn’t there (we both really liked our MC) and it has me questioning what the hell IC is doing for him.

How am I supposed to trust that he’s doing "the work" to fix his issues through IC when the last couple sessions has been just a quick catch up and recap of the month followed by small talk?

I will also add he was really wanting to work on his anxiety and insecurities as they are through the roof. They have always been there, but be and heightened along the way and then got so out of control it took a toll on his mental health (one of his whys for the A). So this has been an area that he talks about every time, but I don’t know if my H understands "the assignment."

Suggestions?

Personally, I would look at the overall progress rather than the individual sessions. Therapists are doing many things at once and relationship building can be part of that. Knowing how things are going on the present can provide context of the next thing you work on.

Also, integration of therapy is a process. A therapist will do some sessions just to see what you are applying and how you are feeling.

However there are a lot of shitty therapists. So I wouldn’t blindly trust it either.

I also took breaks from therapy for integration purposes. This often makes bs nervous. But honestly therapy was only one tool that helped me, I personally see it as a way to examine your own thoughts but I also did that by journaling or writing here, practicing mindfulness.

When I started therapy, I said it was to let go of ap and figure out what to do with my marriage. I felt frustrated that the subsequent sessions were about FOO as I couldn’t see why that was what we were doing. Going home to my husband and saying "we talked about my mom growing up" lent itself to him feeling like the therpist was trying to blame my choices on my childhood. It wasn’t that at all, she was helping me see the context in which some of my patterns began and how it was no longer serving me so that she could challenge me to find replacements.

In other words it is very hard to judge therapy because it’s a fluid process. It makes sense to me that they would be talking about present day to a certain extent because the only work you can truly do in yourself at a certain point is examine who you are today, how you are responding to life stuff, etc. I took a break from therapy at a year in to focus on reading and working on some specific things but that journey is different for everyone.

Also keep in mind your husband is likely struggling less than you are now. This is a dynamic that people have talked about here, often at the same place in their timeline as you are now. You may want to post this question also in the other forum to get some views on it from the other bs.

The main purpose of therapy is self awareness and processing. Followed by skill building. When someone is becoming more and more self aware, often there is less to talk about. It becomes more about the practice of working on what you become aware of. Therapy only takes you so far. Some therapists will agree to meet with the spouse to discuss the progress, what is being worked on, etc. Mine met with me and my husband once. She was clear that she wasn’t going to be able to give us any marital counseling but she didn’t mind to have a check in with us all together so you might look into that so you can ask them yourself how they see their most recent sessions.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:11 PM, Wednesday, March 19th]

I have a question for the WS that had an affair with physical sexual contact (kissing and touching) but NO PIV or oral.

What were you actually doing it for? What were you getting?, Why did you not have PIV?

In my H case he was being offered PIV & oral but never took the offer. Very confusing as he is very sexually driven.

Dear Bruce123,

I am sorry you are here and that your husband was not faithful to you. I fit the situation you are talking about. I didn't have PIV or oral sex with the AP, just sexual contact (touching, but only him to me, not me to him). I would have easily had sex - frequent early sexual experiences made me pretty callous and detached about sex, and I had many many ONS before I was 18, so although I hadn't done that in 20+ years, I had never addressed the underlying causes and that neural pathway was deep and re-activated instantly. Sex for me was like a handshake, detached and non-intimate. When I was young, it was a way to feel powerful after an early rape - I would seduce and immediately reject. I think the reason PIV/oral didn't happen was that he was scared, and I've wondered if being scared made made him dysfunctional. His usual MO was to flirt or perhaps more accurately a kind of cruel banter which seemed friendly and then took a twist - he enjoyed getting people's trust and then sneering at them. These mini-humiliations drove me crazy (not in a happy way) and I wanted to regain power. So that dynamic - he wanted gratification in his usual way, which was to gain intimacy and then sneer, and I hated that and wanted to seduce him and then reject him - is probably really different from your husband, but I am answering so you hear from someone who fit that description. My husband felt as terribly betrayed as any husband would be whose wife was giving sexual attention to another man, so I don't usually highlight this aspect of the affair because it doesn't change the reality of the betrayal.

Dear HeartbrokenWife23,

I concur completely with HikingOut, a good therapist is working on several levels when they chitchat about everyday things, seeing what topics he chooses to bring up (and avoid), how he views/narrates things that happen, his response patterns, how he changes over time etc. It can look like nothing and then all of a sudden a bunch of things come together to produce insight, intention, and change. There's also a LOT of very ineffective therapy. What helps is your husband taking the drivers seat in the process, being honest and truthful in the sessions, noticing his emotions, urges, and behaviors with curiosity, etc. Not thinking that just showing up and talking for an hour will be the thing that makes a difference. But it takes time and it's hard to tell early on if it's working.

I will also add he was really wanting to work on his anxiety and insecurities as they are through the roof.

One of my children had an episode of cutting a few years ago and we found an adolescent DBT (dialectical behavior therapy) program to put her in. One component was a group class for teens and their families - we did a 24 week curriculum with four other families. My teen met individually with a therapist to work on implementing the skills in her everyday life - if she was anxious about a social situation, for example, they would talk about mindfulness (e.g. observing her feelings of anxiety, observing her projections or fears), she might use distress tolerance (e.g. TIPP - temperature, intense exercise, paced breathing, paired muscle relaxation), emotional regulation (e.g. positive self talk), interpersonal effectiveness (DEARMAN - describe, express, assert etc). After talking through the options she would pick one or two to try. Three years later she is in great shape and I see her using the skills in her everyday life, and her siblings turn to her for help (or sometimes I hear her muttering under her breath "that sibling needs some distress tolerance.")

All that to say . . . Highly recommend DBT. It's very practical.

hikingout

Thank you. I suppose I should be looking at his overall progress instead of solely on his counselling sessions. I guess it really is a process to sort through so many different areas and how a therapist approaches these areas, the questions asked, responses given, etc. will all be apart of the bigger picture.

Also keep in mind your husband is likely struggling less than you are now. This is a dynamic that people have talked about here, often at the same place in their timeline as you are now.

Could you please explain what you mean by dynamic at this place in my timeline?

I guess I just hope he is becoming self aware. I hope he’s tapping into and processing why he made such life shattering, shit choices to those he loves the most.

As always, thank you for giving me something to think about ❤️

Pippin

Thank you so much for your response. I completely agree with what you’re saying. Sometimes I have a hard time myself looking at the bigger picture and how all those seemingly small, minuscule details overtime are creating that deeper insight for him.

I’m happy that your daughter had success with her therapy and she’s applying those skills today. I will research DBT!

Hi heartbroken-

So let me see if I can.

After a year of therapy, I do not mean he doesn’t have struggles but he is likely getting a handle on himself. His therapy is more about integrating and expanding his awareness rather than having the overwhelming feelings he had earlier in the process. The progress now is not as exponential because he is not in crisis mode.

I think it simply takes the bs longer to get out of crisis. You have a lot of things still in crisis for you. Trust being a big one. He doesn’t have that issue. He knows he has to be trustworthy but that is not nearly as hard as your job because you can’t be in his head. You are still scanning for reasons to and reasons against.

The bs in my opinion is often in crisis longer due to the damage. The ws has damage, but a lot of it’s always been there. They are just at a point they are learning skills which presents less struggle.

I am not saying I didn’t struggle for 5-6 years after my affair but not to the extent my husband did.

Many bs’s comment after a year or two that they feel like their ws is having a simpler time.

The work is mostly simpler because it’s integrating and building what you have learned. It’s just a difference in roles.

I don’t think I could fully appreciate that until I had to do it from the other side.

Thanks h/o … I understand what you’re saying here.

@hikingout

This is a normal marital issue when you are in a long term relationship. People need to be able to be passionate and distracted by that passion from time to time. Relationships should have elasticity. This is more proof the affair wasn’t based on this real or perceived neglect. It was caused by someone who was asleep at the wheel - and that person was me.

I wish to God my WW would say anything similar to this.

I find myself reading all of your posts thinking(hoping really), this must be the eventual outcome of my situation! But as of this moment I feel it’s far more likely my marriage is over, and we’re just slow walking it to the burial site.

Each weekend I go for a walk with my WW that is supposed to be an opportunity for us to both share our thoughts about the current state of our marriage. It usually ends in an argument. Although today was relatively peaceful.

Today we spoke about a very important topic, the future. The future is something my wife has a very difficult time speaking about. Usually, the best I can get out of her about the future is, "I don’t know". I don’t know if we have a future together. I don’t know if you or I can give each other what we need or want. I don’t know if this will all work out. I don’t know, but I’m trying, is all she can say.

To manage that level of limbo for myself, I’ve developed a plan. I’ve told her I will wait until the end of this year and then I will reevaluate the situation.

If the end of the year were today, I would go see a divorce lawyer. Everything we do together seems like it’s a chore or a homework assignment for her. It seems like, yes, she’s trying, but it’s a tax in her.

I do not feel this way about her. I’m challenged by things she says and does, but not by my want to be with her, to spend time with her.

It feels like she cares and there’s love for me. But that she doesn’t love herself or the life she’s created for herself. It feels like I’m just a reminder of that for her.

One great example of that is family gatherings. Over the years, I have not gone to most gatherings. I find them to be stupid and wastes of time. My wife knew this, and using her people pleasing skills, just allowed me to opt out.

But eventually this began to create a lot of resentment in her, and now after 22 years of feeling like I "just didn’t give a shit" (spoiler, I cared deeply) about her. She says it’s now difficult for her to trust that she "will not have to worry about how you’re feeling", or if I’m "bored and want to leave early." Basically that she doesn’t want to have to deal with me and would rather go by herself to these things. Which was always a contributing factor as to why I didn’t go in the first place.

But since the revelation that my wife was "miserable for our entire marriage", I have been doing everything I can to show her that I will do the things that are important to her, including be by her side at family gatherings. So what I find odd is that this is not making her happy, at all. And instead it seems to be a real challenge for her to talk to me about future events as if I will even be invited.

Because of the affair, I also feel wary that perhaps this is a way for her to travel alone and find time for an AP. I don’t think this is likely, but the intrusive thoughts are still there.

Today was the first time she said that I was invited to the next event in May, and it was only after I explained to her that these gatherings were a "milestone" that I would be using to reevaluate our marriage at the first of the year.

So my question to you is this. What the hell is going on?

I’m doing all the things, and it’s not enough. It’s been 5 months of this, and I’m not the one that had the affair, she is. What do you think is going on with her?

My guess is that she doesn’t want me near her family if she doesn’t think the marriage is going to last, but since she’s not sure, she’s begrudgingly going to allow me to go, while knowing that it’s likely not going to change anything, or actually cause her more stress in the long run.

I guess what I’m saying is that I think my WW is running out of ways to blame me for everything, but isn’t close to doing the hard work examining the contributions her toxic people pleasing had on our marriage, and how both she and I made mistakes (both just me). I think the important thing is we either learn and grow from this or we just need to move on with our lives, but what isn’t helping anyone is living in the past. Did you experience anything similar to this with your husband? What were some of the key moments that made you change your mind and see your own decisions had contributed to where your marriage ended up?

Hi 4 characters,

Today we spoke about a very important topic, the future. The future is something my wife has a very difficult time speaking about. Usually, the best I can get out of her about the future is, "I don’t know". I don’t know if we have a future together. I don’t know if you or I can give each other what we need or want. I don’t know if this will all work out. I don’t know, but I’m trying, is all she can say.

So if your join date is close to your dday this is normal for the ws. (doesn’t mean you have to accept it, so don’t take what I am saying as a directive towards your marriage, I am just telling you what I believe)

I didn’t know if I wanted my marriage either. I wanted to try for sure. But what happens to have an affair is we put together a narrative in our mind that justifies what we are doing. It’s not conscious lying, it’s more like hundreds of little justifications to keep feeling good. Also, I think women especially emotionally invest in their affairs. For the first 6 months I was withdrawing from all the hits of dopamine and adrenaline, which left me feeling flat and depressed.

I simply didn’t have it to give. I do think it’s good she is not lying to you or making up promises to keep you around. Realizing we have lied to ourselves is a slow unwinding process.

To manage that level of limbo for myself, I’ve developed a plan. I’ve told her I will wait until the end of this year and then I will reevaluate the situation.

I think that is a good plan, to put it on a dutute date. My husband did 6 months.

If the end of the year were today, I would go see a divorce lawyer. Everything we do together seems like it’s a chore or a homework assignment for her. It seems like, yes, she’s trying, but it’s a tax in her.

Yes that was definitely me too.

I do not feel this way about her. I’m challenged by things she says and does, but not by my want to be with her, to spend time with her.

Yes, but you have not been on the same trajectory as her.

I apologize I do not know your story. For me, I was having an existential crisis at the time of my affair. I was 41, my kids were about raised and I didn’t feel like I knew myself anymore. I felt like I had sacrificed so much for my family that I didn’t know who I was or what I wanted and I was full of resentment. It took a while to take accountability that my over sa drive was on me and that I had to own up to creating my own unhappiness and escaping by having an affair only caused longer pain and turmoil.

It feels like she cares and there’s love for me. But that she doesn’t love herself or the life she’s created for herself. It feels like I’m just a reminder of that for her.

Yes, it was like that for me too. I had escaped and numbed myself so much I really didn’t appreciate my husband even a fraction of what I should have. It took months to start moving away from that narrative.

One great example of that is family gatherings. Over the years, I have not gone to most gatherings. I find them to be stupid and wastes of time. My wife knew this, and using her people pleasing skills, just allowed me to opt out.

But eventually this began to create a lot of resentment in her, and now after 22 years of feeling like I "just didn’t give a shit" (spoiler, I cared deeply) about her. She says it’s now difficult for her to trust that she "will not have to worry about how you’re feeling", or if I’m "bored and want to leave early." Basically that she doesn’t want to have to deal with me and would rather go by herself to these things. Which was always a contributing factor as to why I didn’t go in the first place.

I think that a good sign is she is no longer willing to people please. Just know that learning to do that is awkward at first and we kind of go hard in the opposite direction. For me that leveled out again. Recognize that she is telling you the truth about where she is, her confusion over what she wants and trying to lead her life more authentically. How you factor into that should change over time if she is working on herself.

Even if you all end up divorcing I think someone who works on themselves will take greater accountability of where they landed over a period of time.

But since the revelation that my wife was "miserable for our entire marriage", I have been doing everything I can to show her that I will do the things that are important to her, including be by her side at family gatherings. So what I find odd is that this is not making her happy, at all. And instead it seems to be a real challenge for her to talk to me about future events as if I will even be invited.

The issue is with her and not with you.

She didn’t cheat on you because he has been miserable her entire marriage.

What happens is as someone starts to cheat they start justifying it. And over time they will re-write history and the marriage. I would not take these claims that seriously. Certainly if you want to be a better partner for her because there are opportunities for improvement that’s fine, but do not associate what she has done and how she has justified it to herself with truth.

Did I feel emotionally neglected at times? Yes. But there was a lot of happiness over the years of being married. But coming out of the affair I didn’t know what end was up.

Because of the affair, I also feel wary that perhaps this is a way for her to travel alone and find time for an AP. I don’t think this is likely, but the intrusive thoughts are still there.

That is valid, and whether or not it’s true she should be being transparent and reassuring.

Today was the first time she said that I was invited to the next event in May, and it was only after I explained to her that these gatherings were a "milestone" that I would be using to reevaluate our marriage at the first of the year.

Why is this a milestone for you?

I’m doing all the things, and it’s not enough. It’s been 5 months of this, and I’m not the one that had the affair, she is. What do you think is going on with her?

She is ambivalent because she is still working out who she authentically is and what she wants.

My guess is that she doesn’t want me near her family if she doesn’t think the marriage is going to last, but since she’s not sure, she’s begrudgingly going to allow me to go, while knowing that it’s likely not going to change anything, or actually cause her more stress in the long run.

I think it’s more this has been a point of contention and she sort of still wants to cling to the resentments so that she can hide from herself that she cheated because of herself, not because of you.

Moving her back isn’t going to help. I think you should be authentic to yourself and find boundaries in which you demonstrate self respect. Right now she sees she has every option under the sun but I think she doesn’t know yet what it feels like when your sun doesn’t shine on her. That’s going to be a process for you I think.

I guess what I’m saying is that I think my WW is running out of ways to blame me for everything, but isn’t close to doing the hard work examining the contributions her toxic people pleasing had on our marriage, and how both she and I made mistakes (both just me). I think the important thing is we either learn and grow from this or we just need to move on with our lives, but what isn’t helping anyone is living in the past. Did you experience anything similar to this with your husband? What were some of the key moments that made you change your mind and see your own decisions had contributed to where your marriage ended up?

I think you are right. She isn’t even living in the past she is living in her justifications for cheating.

Yes I experienced all of this. I was worse because I pined for the AP. It took a while to realize it wasn’t the ap at all but the flooding of dopamine and nothing to do with the AP.

I do not think there was one turning point but a series of epiphanies over time in which I became more self aware and engaged in being more curious with myself.

Your wife didn’t cheat on you because of you or your marriage. She cheated because she lost herself over time and the pain became greater than the attachment to her values.

What is she doing? I was in therapy, reading, and trying to awkwardly practice not people pleasing and trying to figure out what my new dreams are. This is crucial to her process. But you should not feel you have to sacrifice yourself in order to get her to come back. I think you should keep evaluating and asking for what you want.