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I will say this, learning to live with uncertainty is what I have chosen. I am "both feet in" on R, but I am not going to renew my vows (and don't see that ever happening). I am not "recommitted" for life. I'm going to stay in this M as long as I can hack it, and keep my escape hatch available. The freedom to change my mind makes me feel much less foolish in staying.

Thanks for sharing this. What keeps you in it? My thoughts are that I want to stick around long enough to know whether she and I are capable of being really happy with each other. If we are, then I would want both of us to live in the security that new vows would provide (this assumes that I believe that the vows would be meaningful from her, but that is inherent in me being really happy with her). And if it comes out that our best days are behind us and we can’t beat our old dysfunctional patterns, then I walk. But staying in this state indefinitely? It feels precarious and as a Christian I’ve honestly never thought much about this gray zone. I have strong associations of commitment and promise with marriage. I don’t think I’d recognize it that way.

As others have pointed out a one time event followed by 15 months of contact without more is irrational. This is going to be the downfall of the marriage if she doesn’t come clean now.

Message heard. It sounds bizarre. I was completely incredulous that she took that nanny trip with the family. She has acted like an insane woman. So it’s plausible to me right now, but suspicious no doubt. She asked me to come upstairs to talk, I had a sinking feeling she was going to change this part of the story, but it turned out to be just about getting STD checks (which she has spearheaded and I appreciate).

The above partnered with that screwed up NC communication sticks out like a red herring. I hope when you get this timeline thing done that you follow it through with the polygraph to increase your odds that the above statement is not wishful thinking.

Good reminder. I don’t like the idea of a polygraph for some reason, not really sure why. Keep bringing it up.

I also feel the need to apologize for my terrible screen name. Pretty sure I was drunk on DDay and registered then. But what do you do?

I admit I'm not religious myself, though ethically I was fully invested in my marriage vows including but not limited to fidelity. While I remain married, all those vows apply, but what doesn't is just the "for the rest of my life".

What keeps me in the marriage is also what kept me in limbo for some time. My wife and I are compatible in general. We share similar outlooks on life and have a shared vision of the future. She is financially responsible, she contributes well (more than half) to household chores, she is fun to hang out with, we have good and frequent sex. Materially everything basically always has been great. Even during the A. In limbo I wasn't really happy. I was materially comfortable. When I finally made it out of limbo, I did find happiness.

I know it's a lot to read through someone else's story, especially as you are still reeling yourself.

You can watch me waffle and struggle through my threads replaying what happened in real time:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/642801/wife-of-almost-ten-years-is-emotionally-cheating-on-me/

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/647331/minimizing-impact/

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/649198/marriage-without-reconciliation/

Edit: you might also find that several time I say "If X then Y" and I don't Y. Even in this case, I think at some point I said "I don't just want to stay as long as I can hack it" but that's exactly what I'm doing.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 8:47 PM, Thursday, June 30th]

Be really careful with that. You are the injured party here, that's true. But it really is possible to lash out and to do so much damage that it complicates the forward path enough to take the possibility of R off the table. Whatever injuries we do to one another must be healed, regardless of how they happened. The best way to keep all your options open is to not pile on more damage to what you already have.

I am practicing some pretty radical honesty with her right now. It’s definitely a stress test to see if I’m worth the discomfort to her. And it’s also a chance to make sure there is no misunderstanding right now. I truly and genuinely mean that I no longer consider myself as living under wedding vows. It is only fair for her to know it. I’m using language with her of wanting to take this time to rebuild something mutually desirable. I have felt taken for granted for a long time. She has felt the same thing, but I’m pretty sure that a jury of our peers listening to our respective cases would not side with the SAHM with no kids at home who has just had an affair. This feeling and bad communication and bad sex was getting me close to the point of leaving the marriage. And I know that sounds weird, like why aren’t I just jumping ship with the opportunity presented? But the truth is I love that woman deeply, irrationally strongly, and I think we are so close to good, even great. If this can be the impetus for her to take some her flaws seriously, we could have a beautiful life together. That’s the hope.

And not only an adulterer, but an insanely weak and foolish person. She let a player walk her down a completely stereotypical path to get in her pants.

But...

She drove more than two hours with the intent to have sex with him (wore sexy underwear, no denying it), but she had never given a thought to what to do with his load, and she knew she was fertile.

This sounds like how I enabled a lot of my rug sweeping. In a way, I infantilized my WW to minimize what she had done. "Oh she got carried away in some online romantic fantasy and then it just happened." Like she didn't know any better. Like she was the victim of some predator. But the truth is that she was fishing. She planned everything and when the "predator" didn't make the next move, she made it for him.

I agree with Beyondrage 100 percent. You must do a poly.

There are countless instances here of BH like you who say a poly doesn’t sit right with them. They think they have the entire truth snd don’t want to submit their WW to the humiliation - like the WW hasn’t already humiliated you snd herself at the same time.

See Mrflibbles thread. That’s a relatively recent instance. He said the exact same thing as you and resisted the poly. After much persuasion here, he finally agreed. Turns out his WW was still lying and he got a parking lot confession. He divorced his WW. The poly had much do to with this decision. Without the poly he would probably still be married to his lying wife.

Friend - a confession and appearance of sincerity does not equal the truth when it comes to cheating. You "thought" you knew your WW. Now you "think" you don’t need a poly. To be Frank, I wouldn’t trust your instincts here, in that you know the woman you married.

You’re a logical person . Logic dictates a poly.

In the exam room for STD check! Stay tuned!

This sounds like how I enabled a lot of my rug sweeping. In a way, I infantilized my WW to minimize what she had done. "Oh she got carried away in some online romantic fantasy and then it just happened." Like she didn't know any better. Like she was the victim of some predator. But the truth is that she was fishing. She planned everything and when the "predator" didn't make the next move, she made it for him.

I can see the temptation to that. There has been an element of KISA to me with her in the past. But I honestly don’t believe she was a huntress here. It would be totally out of all character I know of her or of anything I’ve ever heard of her in 20 years. It doesn’t fit. She is a follower, quite passive. No way she hunted down a guy with an extensive sexual history in plain sight of his wife and two children. That is a story that is beyond credible. Don’t worry about me rug sweeping. I won’t over look this. It’s either an impetus for significant change or the death blow of our marriage.

That immediately got her to call me. She confirmed she knew, told me to leave her alone, and hung up. Case closed for me now.

You don't think evil enough. Unless you are certain of her voice, I wouldn't trust a phone call on demand. Not suggesting further effort on your part because you at least tried, but cheaters lie easily.
That OBS just wants NC would imply that OBS already knew. Probably from the family trip. She's already processed the pain and has made the decision to R. Cheaters are never as smooth as they think they are. Good chance AP is running a modified variant of what your WW used. That WW seduced him.

Thoughts on poly graph:
1) seems cheesy
2) I doubt it’s validity.
3) with 1 and 2 in place, what do I gain if I don’t really believe in it? I guess the threat could illicit a last second confession, seems like the only helpful thing that could come out of it. Maybe I need to do some more research on it, but I do test method evaluations for my job and I know that just because something claims to be able to measure something doesn’t mean it can with any useful accuracy. I don’t think her passing would make me believe her more and failing wouldn’t be a gotcha in my mind.

Tell me where I’m wrong here.

guess the threat could illicit a last second confession, seems like the only helpful thing that could come out of it.

“ beat the grass to startle the snakes“ - Sun Tzu

But I honestly don’t believe she was a huntress here. It would be totally out of all character I know of her or of anything I’ve ever heard of her in 20 years. It doesn’t fit. She is a follower, quite passive. No way she hunted down a guy with an extensive sexual history in plain sight of his wife and two children. That is a story that is beyond credible.

I never thought my WW would get involved in a threesome, or that she would have friends who, when they went out of town, would allow my WW and her AP to use their house and bed to have unlimited sex, in private, and in comfort!

Cheaters do things totally out of character with other cheaters, things you would never dream of them doing. So, don't be so quickly dismissive of what your WW might do when you're not around. It's as if they are a different person altogether.

You don't think evil enough. Unless you are certain of her voice, I wouldn't trust a phone call on demand. Not suggesting further effort on your part because you at least tried, but cheaters lie easily.

I admittedly don’t know OBS by voice. But at this point OM would have to intercept my initial DM, my text the next day, AND have a weepy sounding voice actor on the ready within a minute of my message bomb threat. Too far down the conspiracy theory road for my tastes. Let’s move along, I’m done with this topic.

That OBS just wants NC would imply that OBS already knew. Probably from the family trip. She's already processed the pain and has made the decision to R. Cheaters are never as smooth as they think they are. Good chance AP is running a modified variant of what your WW used. That WW seduced him.

Not my problem. If OBS changes her mind and wants to compare notes, she knows how to find me.

Come now InkHulk, you should be able to understand that anything better than a coin flip gives you information. What with a little Bayesian math. Don't ignore the mental pressure of the event itself often leading to the so-called parking lot confession.

I did a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong. To this day I think the poly is "optional" to the degree you think it helps. I probably should have stuck to my guns/my wife's promise to schedule a poly, but I didn't and instead ended up spying on her. Which is better?

I already sent you my threads though, so you can see me arguing pretty strongly against it when I was in your position.

She is a follower, quite passive. No way she hunted down a guy with an extensive sexual history in plain sight of his wife and two children.

It's a dance: one person leads, the other follows. Doesn't mean the follower doesn't want to dance.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 10:31 PM, Thursday, June 30th]

Come now InkHulk, you should be able to understand that anything better than a coin flip gives you information. What with a little Bayesian math. Don't ignore the mental pressure of the event itself often leading to the so-called parking lot confession.

Hmmm, didn’t expect that from you. I would find no use for a test that was even demonstrated 80% accurate in this situation. Just too much uncertainty left to override what I have to believe internally to remain sane. And I know the philosophy of Bayesian stats better than the implementation to actually do the math you are describing

Yes, the parking lot confession seems like the remaining utility. I think polygraphs sell a false sense of 100% verification and absolute truth when in reality you are only really going to know over the years if the story is consistent or inconsistent, or maybe you’ll never fully know. We live in the Information Age, it’s like we expect to be able to Google pictures of them making out in the car or find the good stuff on P*rmHub.

More than once, you've dismissed advice as "crazy conspiracy theories."

Actually, it's hard earned wisdom being passed to you,by people who have been here for years. We have seen these things you keep dismissing, over and over,and over again. People who have stayed on this site,to help people who are now in the position they were in. This site helped those people and they stay to pay it forward.

What you dismiss as cheesy..the polygraph..is a tool that has been used hundreds of times by members,to get the truth. We've had law enforcement,and government officials,who have been members in the past,who have a lot of confidence in a polygraph. The reason they aren't admissible court,is because a sociopath believes their lies. The average person can't do that. Not with a reputable administrator.

I get that you are in shock. But maybe take in the advice,and consider it,before dismissing it.

As for the OBS. Maybe it was her. And maybe his sister made that call. Or his coworker. Or a friend. Who really knows. He's a player? You dont think he has a few trick up his sleeve?

I mean no offense. I took advice initially on the OBS identity issue and changed course. I have now triple verified it to my satisfaction. You’re going to have to live with that cause unless new information comes to light it’s settled for me. I am figuring in the risk of violating OBS wishes to not be harassed in this time, as I would want mine. I believe it’s her and I don’t want to make her a victim of my doubts.

And I laid out my case against polygraphs and solicited open rebukes, didn’t just dismiss it. Feel free, I actually am quite open to debate. Another thing WW hasn’t appreciated about me.

I’m not hear to placate other people’s feelings, I’m not going to write another message like this.

I claim the right to take what I can use and leave the rest. As has been said, it’s my life and happiness at stake.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 11:15 PM, Thursday, June 30th]

Let's apply it to representative values

Lets say right now you believe you have "no significant intentional deception or ommission" or "truth" at 90% and "lies" and 10%.

If the test is 75% accurate, 15% inconclusive and 10% opposite of indication:

15% of the time you get "nothing" inconclusive.

P(Truth|Pass)=P(Pass|truth)*P(truth)/(P(Pass|truth)*P(truth)-P(Pass|False)*False= 96% certainty (expected gain of 6% surety ~2/3rds of the time)

Thus P(false|pass)=4% (I think this is a pretty big gain)

P(False|fail)=45%

P(Truth|fail)=55%

So you don't get "the answer" no matter what. Maybe the the false "fail" is too high for this to be worth it to you. You prior beliefs are strong enough that she is telling the truth, that maybe you believe her still no matter what.

Maybe you dig through my old threads and I used this math to convince myself it wasn't worth it.

Hard to say.

Like I said, I think of it as optional, especially if you have good other data to dig up that corroborates the timeline and the details.

...the truth is I love that woman deeply, irrationally strongly, and I think we are so close to good, even great. If this can be the impetus for her to take some her flaws seriously, we could have a beautiful life together. That’s the hope.

All I'm saying is to bear that in mind. I think you'd be surprised by how many BS's become abusive during this process, oftentimes via uncharacteristic verbal abuse, name-calling and that sort of thing, and then end up confounded by the additional difficulties they have in R. Sometimes it results in stonewalling by a WS who isn't emotionally authentic because they don't want to be screamed at. So, you're not having the big talks. You're getting a bunch of "go along to get along". Another pitfall would be the Revenge Affair, which leaves the BS no leg to stand on in terms of the need for a WS to figure out what went wrong in their character and boundaries which allowed them to say "yes" to cheating. How can you make an argument that your WS needs to dig deep and figure out what their real Core Values are when you've taken the low road yourself? And then there's going straight for D before you're really sure it's what you want. At that point, you're dealing with your abandonment wounding from the WS's cheating, and the WS is dealing with the abandonment wounding of you leaving. It doesn't really matter that it was deserved. We can't logic our way out of trauma and once the trauma exists, it exists.

All I'm saying is that you're going to hear a lot of tough talk as you proceed. Make sure your words and your actions reflect your authentic self and aren't reactionary. No doubt it feels good to let off steam and call somebody a bad name when you're mad. But words are like bullets. Once they leave your mouth you can't call them back. Same with so many other forms of reactionary behavior.

I really do think you're going to do fine. You seem like a guy with a good head on his shoulders. Trust it.

{typos}

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:19 PM, Thursday, June 30th]