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I think you are giving her too much credit and you will figure it out. But it sucks that you already know she will lie, but just not how "big" the lies will be and if they will be dealbreakers.

Agreed. Waywards and other liars never believe they will be found out, but they almost always get caught at some point. That's true for all lies, not just the ones about cheating behaviors. The BS doesn't always call them out on it, but the BS knows. And if the WS was capable of being honest with themselves, they'd know that the BS knows, too. That's what makes the behavior of consistently lying to one's spouse so crazy, on top of being devastating to trust.

I think you are giving her too much credit and you will figure it out.

I know you're right--perhaps it's just the inevitability of where that path leads that bothers me. I want to deescalate so that my WW feels more comfortable, not tighten the grip and return to where we were a few weeks ago.

**

I can also provide an update on last night. My WW returned from her work trip late afternoon while I was on a work call. We said hello, but only interacted for about 15 minutes before I had to head out for the evening with my mom and sister. I thought my WW was distant in the brief encounter, but assumed it was her long travel day on three hours of sleep.

I went to a wonderful dinner and then to a play, not thinking about my WW or the affair all night...until about halfway through the play when there was an affair-related joke. There was a guy a character didn't like, so he said: "Those are the kind of guys I like to fuck their wives."

It struck me hard, at first the brief shame knowing that my mom and sister were probably thinking about me in that moment, and then me moving to a negative head space. Logically, I couldn't make sense of why it affected me, but emotionally I felt really down. I began to analyze it a bit--was there something about the specific joke or was it just the general reference to infidelity that bothered me?

The joke is more AP centric--he's the subject: the one who fucked my wife--the wife in the joke is the object. I haven't had much anger for AP this entire time; all my anger has been directed at my WW. Are my feelings genuine? Am I repressing some anger for AP that I don't realize I have? I *feel* nothing for him, but maybe that's not true.

I suspect more likely, it was just the general reference to infidelity that snapped me out of the moment and back to my pitiful reality. Reflecting back now, it makes me so angry that I'm so emotionally fragile--a silly joke ruined my evening. I need to figure out how to stop that from happening.

I finished watching the play and drove everyone home, but my negative headspace stayed with me. I couldn't shake it.

While my WW was traveling, she had sent me text messages of what she wanted to do with me when she got back, so I knew she'd be waiting up and looking to fool around when I arrived home. I was navigating that in my head on the ride home--how I wanted to handle it. Did I want to give into the negativity and go to sleep with my self-pity or did I want to force it aside and try to enjoy the night with my WW?

I got up to the bedroom and she was asleep with "Not Just Friends" open on her chest; but she woke up as I walked in. We chatted for a bit about her trip and how we felt while away from each other. I told her I was fine with her gone--I felt very disconnected from her. She jumped on that and said it was exactly how she felt: disconnected. And how strange she felt coming home. She said she was overwhelmed by the uncertainty of our relationship her entire time away.

Again, it's hard for me to know how you all see my WW--but all I see usually is a frightened little girl.

We ended up having sex twice and we both enjoyed it. We both felt more connected to each other afterward.

Looking back at the night, it felt like it was the most remorseful I've seen her. It just felt different than usual--I saw her pain rather than empty words. I also recognize though that the primary difference last night is I didn't probe into anything she said--a course that has always led me to unfortunate discoveries. Without an opportunity for her to drop the mask, what I saw last night could still just be a mask--it's going to take time for me to discern the difference.

I'm going out again with my sister tonight for dinner and leaving my wife home with the kids. Dinner is in the same city as the affair hotel, so I'd like to take a trip there without my wife. I may even drive by the hotel on my way to the restaurant--I have this undying urge to rid my brain of all these boogeymen.

I don’t think my WW will ever contact AP again, but I’d be a complete fool to think it’s entirely impossible.

You mean like attending a public school event that AP could reasonably be in attendence without her wedding ring to give the impression of being open to the idea ? I hate to point that out, but it was the first thing I thought of when I read that. Actions don't lie. Small things that fly under the radar don't anymore. I would press her on that one. Sadly you might get an honest answer after some time in R. She still lies withouting knowing why, right? More specifically liea because it provides her aome kind of pay off. She has yo be honest with herself first. Was this brought up in MC? Does she get that AP might read into it Or what you would read into it? Nothing can be assumed for yhe forseeable future.

The first 6 months suck, but is usually the point where WS attempt to break NC. I hope I am wrong, but clearly your wife is missing her dopamine hit right now. I am sure talking to AP would even briefly would light up certain parts of her brain like a christmas tree.

I am not saying she has/will, but in too many cases I've followed on SI breaking NC is done by AP or the WS.

Stay vigilent while detaching. It would also be good to have a plan in place in case this happens.

I agree that keeping commynication open to OBS to verify NC is in place or avoil id running into one another needs to stay in place for now.

I know you think I am wrong, but what has changed ? At this early stage everyone is still working under the old model. You are not even 6 months passed Dday. You and some others need to remember that you are basically a noob and neither you nor your W really understand any of this A, R, D, limbo stuff yet. IC helps with that too.

You mean like attending a public school event that AP could reasonably be in attendence without her wedding ring to give the impression of being open to the idea ?

There was no scenario for the AP to be there--his children are of different ages and neither is in my son's grade. Still, I viewed it the same: her sending a signal that she's unattached. And again, I'm fine if that's what she wants to do--it just felt passive aggressive.

The first 6 months suck, but is usually the point where WS attempt to break NC. I hope I am wrong, but clearly your wife is missing her dopamine hit right now. I am sure talking to AP would even briefly would light up certain parts of her brain like a christmas tree.

I am not saying she has/will, but in too many cases I've followed on SI breaking NC is done by AP or the WS.

Stay vigilent while detaching. It would also be good to have a plan in place in case this happens.

I would welcome that development though--it would make everything fairly straight-forward and be a one-way ticket out of limbo.

I don't really understand her emotions toward AP right now. She seems entirely severed from him; she's ice cold about it. I view it as part of her vindictiveness: he wronged her, so he's now dead to her.

I know you think I am wrong, but what has changed ? At this early stage everyone is still working under the old model. You are not even 6 months passed Dday. You and some others need to remember that you are basically a noob and neither you nor your W really understand any of this A, R, D, limbo stuff yet. IC helps with that too.

What do I think you're wrong about? From a macro perspective, I agree that not much has changed. I think both my WW and I have gradually come to increased awareness of our situation, but I don't place much significance on that.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 5:28 PM, Friday, June 24th]

Doc. While your WW was on her work trip and you felt detached, how does that compare to how you felt about your WW on her work trips prior to her A? How about your work trips prior to the A?

As a corollary, from your WWs perspective, how did she feel about you pre A when she went on a work trip and when you went on a work trip?

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but wasn't there a recent school event, in which OBS was there,and saw you and your wife? No confrontation,but she saw the two of you,and she let you know later?

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but wasn't there a recent school event, in which OBS was there,and saw you and your wife? No confrontation,but she saw the two of you,and she let you know later?

Correct, sorry for the confusion on this.

So AP/OBS's son is in kindergarten; my son is in first grade. They both attend the same school, which is only those two grades.

The first event was an art show and it was for the entire school (I was under the impression before I went that it was only for my son's grade). That's where we bumped into OBS's friend and then later OBS spotted us from afar in the parking lot.

The next event was a concert and it was only for the first grade, so no AP or OBS. That was the event I spotted my wife not wearing her ring. Again, according to her, she hadn't worn it all week (since our return from family vacation)--she claims she put it in her jewelry box and just forgot about it. It would also mean she didn't wear it to the art show and I just didn't notice.

I don't believe for second she just forgot about her wedding ring, so I don't believe she's being truthful now. She's been wearing it ever since I called her out, so I interpret it as an empty gesture as it's clear something happened in her mind that led her to want to stop wearing it.

What do I think you're wrong about?

About her attempting to make contact or vice versa. It would be good to have a plan in case that happens. Or if one of either of you run into either AP or OBS.

Just be vigiliant. Sure your wife knows that breaking NC would meant the end of the marriage, but she knew the A was wrong in the first place, right? Of course she did or else she would not go those lengths to hide it.

Breaking NC,even just to tell him off, or closure or (insert bullshit reason here) . . . be prepared. In her state logic and reason can lose out to emotionally flooding and terrible choices.

Look, I responded to you enough (maybe I care a little bit ) and don't want to see you hurt again. The goal is to get out of infidelity. Period. The state of your R is secondary to that.

Doc. While your WW was on her work trip and you felt detached, how does that compare to how you felt about your WW on her work trips prior to her A? How about your work trips prior to the A?

That's a good question.

I think the biggest difference was while she was away for this trip, I wasn't eager to text with her, etc. We exchanged texts, but I had no interest in the exchanges. I really just wasn't thinking about her at all (other than while writing in this thread I guess). When she returned, I wasn't overly eager to see her--if her trip lasted another day, I wouldn't have cared. I wasn't dreading to see her either; I just felt agnostic.

On my work trips pre-A, I'm usually focused on my work and my colleagues honestly--and they're almost never more than one night. So I don't really think about her much anyway. But I always returned happy to see her.

As a corollary, from your WWs perspective, how did she feel about you pre A when she went on a work trip and when you went on a work trip?

Pre-A, my wife was always highly anxious being away from me. She hated sleeping alone and she hated not being around me. She'd always be glad to get back home so she can exhale. I think the one exception was her work trip at the end of January (during the A), when she was eager to get away from both me and the A for a couple of nights.

This trip she was still very anxious to be away. She was also cognizant that my texts felt inauthentic and I seemed uninterested in her. She told me that my mood directly affects how she feels--so when she senses sadness from me (often), she then feels disconnected from me.

She also feels especially anxious now with traveling because she's fearful that when she or I return, I'm going to ask for a D. I think she takes the distance to be a risk for the M--like the space away is going to give me an epiphany to bail on her. So she feels the uncertainty of our M gets magnified when we're away from each other.

I think that began with my trip to Italy three weeks after DDay. She had convinced herself then that when I returned I was going to D her immediately.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 6:51 PM, Friday, June 24th]

About her attempting to make contact or vice versa. It would be good to have a plan in case that happens. Or if one of either of you run into either AP or OBS.

Just be vigiliant. Sure your wife knows that breaking NC would meant the end of the marriage, but she knew the A was wrong in the first place, right? Of course she did or else she would not go those lengths to hide it.

Breaking NC,even just to tell him off, or closure or (insert bullshit reason here) . . . be prepared. In her state logic and reason can lose out to emotionally flooding and terrible choices.

Look, I responded to you enough (maybe I care a little bit smile ) and don't want to see you hurt again. The goal is to get out of infidelity. Period. The state of your R is secondary to that.

I appreciate that you care!

And I'm certainly on high alert now. I do feel confident she has no desire to seek him out and that if she did encounter him, she would be heavily guarded and tell me immediately. She knows that's what is expected of her and I'd be shocked to see her falter on this issue based on what I've observed.

But that doesn't change anything really. I'm vigilant and will stay so the rest of my life probably lol.

I also recognize though that the primary difference last night is I didn't probe into anything she said--a course that has always led me to unfortunate discoveries. Without an opportunity for her to drop the mask, what I saw last night could still just be a mask--it's going to take time for me to discern the difference.

I think that is a good thing. Your current plan is to ease off of the probing, directing, analyzing of your wife. That's exactly what you did and the effect was you discovered you both were sharing a similar feeling and you went on to have a nice night.

I don't know your wife obviously but based on what you've posted, I see her as not a super clear thinker / communicator. You, on the other hand, communicate just fine. You analyze deeply and from every angle. I'm just guessing here but I can see a dynamic where you start to "probe" and she simply cannot keep up. She can't keep up with your logic, your questions, your conclusions, all of it. If she tries and doesn't say the right thing (because she is spiraling now) that leads to more probing, a new path of questions and more analysis. She's completely lost now so she checks out or simply starts to cry.

Last night, no probing. Just a simple "I feel statement" and she was allowed to respond as simply. That's connection. Small, tiny little baby step but you allowed it to happen.

I think the break you're taking trying to pull back and focus on you is 100 percent correct. I also think that if and when there are conversations about your marriage or the affair, they may need to be brief, contained sessions where she is given time to think and respond. Just a thought.

I don't know your wife obviously but based on what you've posted, I see her as not a super clear thinker / communicator. You, on the other hand, communicate just fine. You analyze deeply and from every angle. I'm just guessing here but I can see a dynamic where you start to "probe" and she simply cannot keep up. She can't keep up with your logic, your questions, your conclusions, all of it. If she tries and doesn't say the right thing (because she is spiraling now) that leads to more probing, a new path of questions and more analysis. She's completely lost now so she checks out or simply starts to cry.

Last night, no probing. Just a simple "I feel statement" and she was allowed to respond as simply. That's connection. Small, tiny little baby step but you allowed it to happen.

That's exactly who my wife is, who I am, and what happens when I probe--and we both acknowledge it. Though she rarely cries from the probing; she will just check out or say something ridiculous. She cries if I'm silent or sad and she feels disconnected from me.

She was also cognizant that my texts felt inauthentic and I seemed uninterested in her. She told me that my mood directly affects how she feels--so when she senses sadness from me (often), she then feels disconnected from me.

She should also acknowledge that this is unhealthy and also a direct result of her actually truly and purposefully disconnecting from you, by cheating.

It sounds like you are doing better at backing off and focusing on you, but you do not have to accept things like this from her. It doesn't have to start a fight or argument either. It is part of the 180 techniques you have been trying to implement somewhat. You can say to her that how you feel is not my responsibility and we ARE disconnected because of your choices. Bring that to your counseling and not to me. Just keep rejecting being her support and let her handle it however she is going to handle it.

She should also acknowledge that this is unhealthy and also a direct result of her actually truly and purposefully disconnecting from you, by cheating.

It sounds like you are doing better at backing off and focusing on you, but you do not have to accept things like this from her. It doesn't have to start a fight or argument either. It is part of the 180 techniques you have been trying to implement somewhat. You can say to her that how you feel is not my responsibility and we ARE disconnected because of your choices. Bring that to your counseling and not to me. Just keep rejecting being her support and let her handle it however she is going to handle it.

I think she knows it's on her and she doesn't know how to resolve it--but it doesn't help that all her instincts are shit. I have no doubt that she was upset I went out without her last night. And I'm certain she's upset that I'm going out without her tonight.

As an example, here's an update on my afternoon:

My WW told me she just invited her PTA friend to go out to dinner tomorrow night with her daughter (and she'd take our son as they're the same age).

It was so obviously passive aggressive and blatant it took me off guard. She's never once gone out with this friend to dinner before, so inviting her out tomorrow, following me going out two days in a row, is impossible to misunderstand.

I kind of just smiled and said it sounded like a great idea, but I clearly came off phony.

She then came back into my office to apologize to me, playing dumb. She said she should have asked me first before trying to schedule plans. And she went on to say that she had told me last week that she planned to do a dinner with that friend at some point so I shouldn't be surprised.

I told her that everything she does is painfully transparent and it's exhausting watching her rotate through her justifications and explanations. I cut off the conversation seeing she had no desire to have an honest conversation.

I recognize that we haven't had a dinner together in nearly a week, so I have no doubt that my wife is hurt by my decision to go out tonight, but her response to that is to escalate it further--I suspect she thinks she's giving me a taste of my own medicine. A part of me wants to welcome the escalation--hell, I'll make plans every day for a month for all I care. But the other part of me realizes I'd just be engaging in her childish game.

She wanted to get the little reaction out of me--she wanted to get under my skin. Maybe she wanted me to tell her we'd have a dinner together tomorrow and she wasn't getting that confirmation from me, so she's trying to make me jealous lol.

And again, this is not a big deal--virtually none of our conflicts are big deals, relatively--they're all just so silly and tiresome. As I wrote at the top: her instincts are all shit. Rather than taking on the role of healer, she is going to continue to destroy our M nibbling at my ankles until I collapse and give up.

Doc, seriously. Stop engaging with her. You cannot reconcile with this childish behavior. Ignore. Tell her directly "This conversation is over." and do not respond further. She is acting out to get attention and you are giving it to her. She doesn't even pretend to be remorseful but instead resorts to the only thing she is willing to do - manipulate and act out until she gets her way. The only way to stop it is to literally ignore her. Don't give her an audience. Don't even acknowledge her behavior. Gray rock. You don't want your kids copying this behavior.

How can you possibly be expected to take her seriously when she acts like a literal child? Ignore. Ignore. Ignore. I know you tried to but she got enough attention out of you to definitely try again. At the same time you are in this weird limbo where you are acting like husband and wife and having sex, so I can see why she is so persistent. She is sure her strategy will eventually work and she can "win".

Doc. You’re obviously close with your family. Do you have any close guy friends? If yes, have you confided in any of them about the A?

If you don’t have any close male friends, my suggestion would be to engage in some activities to cultivate them - hiking clubs, volunteer groups (not the PTA of course), civic organizations, etc.

I mention this because its is an important part of the 180. It’s also a quite benign part of the 180, considering your concern about doing things that would foster active disengagement from your WW.

Doc, seriously. Stop engaging with her. You cannot reconcile with this childish behavior. Ignore. Tell her directly "This conversation is over." and do not respond further. She is acting out to get attention and you are giving it to her. She doesn't even pretend to be remorseful but instead resorts to the only thing she is willing to do - manipulate and act out until she gets her way. The only way to stop it is to literally ignore her. Don't give her an audience. Don't even acknowledge her behavior. Gray rock. You don't want your kids copying this behavior.

How can you possibly be expected to take her seriously when she acts like a literal child? Ignore. Ignore. Ignore. I know you tried to but she got enough attention out of you to definitely try again. At the same time you are in this weird limbo where you are acting like husband and wife and having sex, so I can see why she is so persistent. She is sure her strategy will eventually work and she can "win".

I am staying calm, but too late to go entirely grey rock on this.

She followed me around the house twice to try to engage and it worked. I told her how transparent her actions were and she just kept playing dumb.

She eventually said it wasn’t to be passive aggressive, it was because her friend’s husband was out of town and she had promised to do dinner with them, but because I didn’t want to do a couple’s dinner, my WW thought it would be a good idea to do dinner now with just her so she doesn’t have to explain why I won’t go out with them.

I calmly responded that she could just explain to them that she’s a whore.

I know it was mean, but I just can’t imagine her thinking I care about the excuse she needs to come up with to explain why we can’t do a couples dinner. It’s her fault entirely we can’t do it.

And again, rather than suggest a date night for the two of us tomorrow, she thought it better to get back at me for going out without her. She has more concern with winning a conflict and what her acquaintance thinks than saving her marriage.

We all get what we want most eventually.

Obviously the conversation ended shortly after what I said—her in tears. I gave her what she needed: now she can be the victim.

I’m leaving for dinner shortly now anyway.

Doc. You’re obviously close with your family. Do you have any close guy friends? If yes, have you confided in any of them about the A?

If you don’t have any close male friends, my suggestion would be to engage in some activities to cultivate them - hiking clubs, volunteer groups (not the PTA of course), civic organizations, etc.

I mention this because its is an important part of the 180. It’s also a quite benign part of the 180, considering your concern about doing things that would foster active disengagement from your WW.

I have guy friends, but I don’t see them frequently. I haven’t shared the A with them as I thought if we R it will be easier.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 10:18 PM, Friday, June 24th]

In that case I strongly recommend going out more often with the guys and cultivating those outside activities. The 180 is important. I understand your reluctance due to your concern about your WWs reaction to distancing yourself.

However, you need to undertake 180 related actions that will help you and and the same time not hurt your WW. What I’m recommending is not only doable but also will benefit you snd your M.

I am staying calm, but too late to go entirely grey rock on this.

She followed me around the house twice to try to engage and it worked. I told her how transparent her actions were and she just kept playing dumb.

If she won't leave you alone when you request, just leave. Go for a drive.

And again, rather than suggest a date night for the two of us tomorrow, she thought it better to get back at me for going out without her. She has more concern with winning a conflict and what her acquaintance thinks than saving her marriage.

This is not you letting go of the outcome. It didn't matter why she did it. She made plans, you should have let her. That would have helped with the detachment. Considering her thought processes is counter productive at this point. You need to work on the 180. If you can't get to that place, you're better off filing. Right now you're toxic to each other.

She made plans, you should have let her. That would have helped with the detachment

It sounds like he tried and she kept at him until he caved.

Doc you're right. She did it to be the victim and you played right into it. She thinks it's a win but she is actually fostering your resentment and general dislike of her. If you arent ready to end it, you must not engage. At all. Ignore and say if you cannot end this conversation, I will leave and do it. Her tears are for herself and she can figure out what to do when you won't play her games. Or not. Either way, you aren't involved.

Make plans for yourself with and without your kids without her for every single day you possibly can. How she feels about it does not matter. She can also make her own plans every single day. All you have to agree on is child care. The last thing you need is dinner or date night with her because with her current behavior, that will be the highway to divorce. I'm guessing you already know all that anyway.