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There have been instances where the BS (I’ll use that also for betrayed partner) finds out that the WS is reading their postings on SI. In some of these postings the BS made it clear that R wasn’t going well, or was non existent, and D was on the horizon. The WS then woke up and did the work to R, or, did not.

There are other instances where the BS directs their WS to SI because they feel they are simply not getting it. And, in some of these cases, the BS is using this as a last ditch effort before they initiate D. In other instances, they want so much to R and simply want their BS to get a clue and do the work.

Finally, there must be some instances where the WS is reading on SI but the BS has no clue, and maybe never will.

I’m wondering, especially in the first two instances, whether the BS should consider this the end of the line? If the WS won’t change, after reading about their BS’ trauma and heartache, as well as reading the other forums (especially the Wayward one), should the BS simply move to D?

Out of frustration, I began printing up excerpts from my SI posts to validate my emotions, actions, reactions and needs that my WW was not taking seriously.

My WW's response was very enlightening.

She felt picked on. She felt that SI was a mob of bitter BS's stirring each other up into an unhealthy and unhelpful frenzy. She felt I was being indoctrinated into a cult of bitter betrayed. She mentioned it to her IC. Her IC validated her POV. Her IC mentioned SI's reco of concealed VARs, polygraphs and post nups as particularly disturbing. She questioned the getting-over-it time line (1-5 years) as being extremely excessive.

Her IC was a cheater apologist and had a particular distaste for Internet forums playing amateur therapists. She completely discredited SI.

My WW said she wasn't going to be influenced by anyone without a PhD after their name. Ironically my WW, at the time, was wrapping up her Masters on her way to a PhD and I didn't notice her getting any wiser or her powers of empathy improving much.

Anyway, needless to say, R eventually failed.

The moral to my story is that if you feel the need to validate your post betrayal needs, reactions and feelings by crediting a source beyond all the recommended published credentialed material that's already out there, then you're WS just isn't getting it and probably never will. They probably just don't have the empathy or the care required to successfully R.

I wish there was a stand alone forum out there that was as good as SI's Wayward Forum, with contributors like BSR, that we could steer our WS's towards without compromising our safe place.

But, if we are steering our WS's towards forums and buying books for them and having to constantly validate ourselves with source materials they approve of, aren't we working too hard, doing too much of the work?

Her IC was a cheater apologist and had a particular distaste for Internet forums playing amateur therapists. She completely discredited SI.

My betrayal trauma IC and my WW’s IC both backed up and praised SI as a good resource. They said it was a helpful forum. So there are some good therapists out there.

She felt picked on. She felt that SI was a mob of bitter BS's stirring each other up into an unhealthy and unhelpful frenzy. She felt I was being indoctrinated into a cult of bitter betrayed. She mentioned it to her IC. Her IC validated her POV. Her IC mentioned SI's reco of concealed VARs, polygraphs and post nups as particularly disturbing. She questioned the getting-over-it time line (1-5 years) as being extremely excessive.

I got much the same reaction. My WW has softened somewhat but to this day she questions the validity of an an anonymous forum (as if vulnerable BS’s should further victimize themselves by exposing their identities!) and she has continued to tear down her failed polygraph that she herself made into a farce.

There's a term - “Amazon chump” - to describe the well known phenomenon of printing out articles and buying books for a WS to read. Many of us have done it and realized it was simply further evidence of lack of remorse.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:25 PM, Wednesday, January 12th]

I thought quite a few times after DDay about telling my wife to join SI in th hope she would finally get where I am coming from. But each time I realised the futility of such an action. Not only was she very dismissive of anything I tried to explain to her after reading or discussing here (especially when it came to the importance of NC), I realised that if I had to force my WW to do the reading / self introspection / analysis then what's the point, she would read the words but never understand them..

As great as a place this is to talk through the shit show that is cheating, it is no place for someone who is being forced to be here. So yes, if you are asking them to come here rather than them finding it through their own work then it could well be the final step before R fails.

Sorry duplicated..

[This message edited by StrugglingCJ at 3:50 PM, Wednesday, January 12th]

WW here.

I found SI on my own. I was attracted to it because they actually have a WS forum where people were treated (mostly) with patience and dignity. I knew I was all kinds of messed up and wanted someone to reality check me without destroying me.

That being said, I'm used to having to be tough and have a relatively thick skin. I've been bullied, abused and have worked in many male dominated factory environments and have made my way through them. For a WS who has been more, well, sheltered in their life, SI's more blunt posters could feel like a jackhammer rather than the 2x4 that's really being leveled.

I don't know about whether WS would universally benefit from SI- especially being forced into it. If they're forced into and stick to regular posting and reading, they may eventually see the benefits in their own perspectives and ways they approach life. I made my BH get IC via ultimatum ("either we D or you get IC, but I can't stay in this marriage with you abusing me in your anger"). A shitty move on my part, but he's found value (and found a great IC). He's sticking with it and we're making traction together.

That being said, both of us ultimately want to work on the marriage together. If your WS isn't in that space SI is not going to be helpful- they'll turtle up and get defensive if someone is frank with them in their thread. Early on, like the whole first year here, I was defensive and blamed BS for everything. I think maybe the difference between me and a WS who doesn't voluntarily sign up here, is that I literally did sign up for this treatment. I wanted to get back in touch with reality as I couldn't trust my own perceptions and judgement anymore. SI was difficult for me to open up on, but ultimately extremely helpful as I began to trust the core group of experienced posters here. Their contributions and perspectives were hard to swallow- especially at first- but ultimately have been useful in confirming or correcting my views.

Finally, there must be some instances where the WS is reading on SI but the BS has no clue, and maybe never will.

BH had no clue initially about me reading and posting on SI. At first (really my first 1.5yrs) he had a hard time reading my posts- I had a lot of anger and negativity and was very defensive. I think we call it "rectal cranial inversion ". Anyway, he had to learn to respect my privacy on here and trust that I was getting good guidance. I'm not sure whether he reads my posts, I suspect he does- he mentions details time to time that I bring up here, but not directly with him in our conversations. However, he hasn't taken me to task for things I've written about him for a while now. I don't know, maybe that's because I'm finally making the effort to get my head out of my ass? I can only hope.

Hope this was helpful.

I'm not sure what you're asking, Dude. IMO, if R isn't going well, it's time for a heart2heart with a 'change or D' ultimatum/choice.

Both partners on SI can work if you set the rights rules for each other. I really hate to see partners post on each other's thread if they know that's what they're doing. If the partners don't know that they're both on SI, it doesn't matter, IMO, if they post on each other's threads. That rarely happens, though. IIRC, I was asked if it was OK for my W to join - but I didn't know her ID at first. She kept forgetting mine, but we R'ed anyway.

Also, I think it's OK if they use SI to help them decide between D, R, and waiting.

In our experience, I suggested my W join early, but she said she'd leave it as my safe place, although she might have been afraid to join. Eventually she wanted something from me that I wasn't willing to give, but I thought fellow WSes might help. W joined; said the responses to her first post were 'harsh' - maybe she said 'sort of harsh'. (She hung in though.)

SI threads are 'works in progress'. We post about our problems much more than about our solutions. If my W read my first few 1000 posts, I believe she'd have thought I was uninterested in R and only forcing myself, because I posted about problems in R. (Remember: our posts generally say a lot about ourselves.) It would have been easy to not see that I was looking for solutions.

Our rules were that we would stay out of each other's threads. That is, we'd stay out of any thread that one of us started. We also agreed to avoid reading each other's posts. Because we both read for content, it turned out to be easy to read each other's posts, but I know if I recognized her style or what she shared, I'd check the authorship and stop reading if she was the author.

Our rules allowed each of us the privacy to post about our problems expecting that we wouldn't scare each other. That's of paramount importance.

Also, I HATE to see a couple conduct a he-did-she-did fight in a thread.

*****

Occasionally a WS or even and ap reads their BS's posts surreptitiously with the goal of gaining power over their BS, especially in a D.

For that reason, I recommend a lot of caution in informing a WS of SI's existence.

SI works best when members can be honest, sometimes brutally honest, in what they write. The more one censors, the less help one can get.

A few SIers have good reasons to regret letting their WSes know about SI. OTOH, many couples have benefitted from being here, when they decide on strong boundaries.

*****

SI is like peer counseling. I had a great MC, and she did things SI can't even dream of doing. SI can do things an individual C can't dream of doing.

Our MC vetted SI when I mentioned it. She said it looked good to her. She sees it as additional support, not competition, even though she doesn't always agree with stuff I picked up here. As I say, she's a great therapist.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:00 PM, Wednesday, January 12th]

I asked my WW to join SI at a point where I didn’t feel she was doing the work and wanted her to get feedback from other WS’s in the hopes that she would take the advice and work on herself.

She had all sorts of reasons not to post, could get her account validated, I’m scared of being trashed, etc. we were seeing an councillor at the time so I figured we could address issues in IC. Well, turns out she was lying to me and the IC, so was a waste of $.

At our lowest point (dday 2 I believe), she finally said she would post. She did, but again, she wasn’t truthful in her one and only post here.

After dday 3, I was just about done. I gave her an ultimatum that she needed to really invest in IC for herself. She did, and it did make a difference. She was more open and honest with me.

I did have my WW read MrsWalloped posts about her A. There were a lot of similarities between her and my WW. My WW made it through one page before she was balling her eyes out. My WW has a very hard time looking at herself objectively, and a lot of what she read got close to home and was too tough for her to read.

I’ve seen some good outcomes with both spouses posting on SI, but for the most part, it doesn’t go well.

I told my H about this site shortly after I found it. I never expected him to post (writing about his feelings is NOT his strong suit), but I thought he might find some of the reading material - particularly in the Healing Library - useful. He did. He even printed out several articles and kept them in a binder to refer to over time.

There were other times where I would read things that I felt were super applicable to our situation or expressed a feeling or a thought that I was having and share them with him so we could discuss. It was helpful.

I think the people who send their WS here so that "someone can talk some sense into them" aren't likely to be super happy with the results - you can't hear what others are saying if you're not listening. Some faceless person on the internet seem unlikely to be more convincing that the person in front of them hurting. You never know though, if they are here, they may see something else that speaks to them - even if it doesn't speak to you.

I have been here long enough to see some WS who have arrived here and tried to use the forums to try to manipulate their BS into believing that they are getting the whole truth. I don't think that's as common as its credited with though.

My guess is that most new WS aren't ready immediately to really face the uncomfortable truth of what's really happened. They are defensive or avoidant or both. Sometimes that changes - sometimes it doesn't.

Its easy for us BS's to see ourselves in other people's stories and to find community easier, because our focus at first is on how it made us feel, and the feelings and reactions we all have is pretty similar to one another. Foggy WS on the other hand are less likely to see themselves in another Wayward's story on the early days because the stories they have told themselves to excuse their behaviour has to do with how special and unique their situation is. Their mind processes are similar but the stories they tell themselves are not.

In my view, if I have a card to play, I'd rather play it then hold on to it, while moving to D. That said, it's probably easy for me to say as my WS wasn't actively gaslighting and trying to manipulate me following D-Day. He didn't get it right away but he was at least trying.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 11:38 PM, Wednesday, January 12th]

Someone just mentioned Mrs Whalloped. If I recall correctly, she once mentioned that two years after Dday her husband saw little enough progress towards R that D started to get discussed. I think that he recommended that she post on SI, and I think that’s where things started to turn around for them.

WWTL noted that he found out that his WW was reading his posts for two years before he discovered it. The interesting thing I find wrt this is that his WW should have known from reading his posts that be wasn’t healed, and that D was certainly a good possibility.

And what did she do with this terrific INTEL? WWTL said she was remorseful, but I saw no concrete measures to help him and the M heal. Yes she cried, begged, snd pleaded but she didn’t take the bull by the horns to drive R. Her attitude was that things weren’t great but it would get better over time.

WWTL can of course correct me on all of this. However, IMO his WW wasted a great opportunity to drive R, having read his posts for two years snd was thus privy to his inner most thoughts on her A, his feelings, snd R.

I too found SI first and couldn’t quit celebrating how much it helped me. I led my WW to this site at first to read my posts because we couldn’t talk without a fight erupting. It was easier for me to put my thoughts and feelings in text and then let her read them on her own. She summoned up the courage one day to start posting herself. At first she she was very defensive and was trying to tell the lies on here that she was telling me at home. I warned her that posters may seem harsh but they have no patience for lies and trickle truth. The pint of this site is to get healed and gain information to be able to trudge forward. She posted for a couple of months and the reality of what she had done and the toxic fallout was very real. She received a lot of great insight and has ultimately "taken a break" from posting until she can get through IC to better herself. I applaud her for taking a leap of faith and putting herself out there to receive feedback from this community and it has helped her tremendously. She was able to see a lot the points I had trying to make to her and sometimes hearing a different way from different resources hits a little different. I’m grateful for this site and I claim it to be the catalyst that finally got her head out of her ass.

Waywards don’t need to read about their BS’s pain to know or understand it… their pain is literally staring at them in the face every day. Unfortunately, a lot of waywards who join at the behest of their spouses end up using the information against them. I would also consider a wayward who spies— even with the best intentions— on their BS’s posts without them knowing is a form of cheating. After Dday, there should be no secrets.

Someone just mentioned Mrs Whalloped. If I recall correctly, she once mentioned that two years after Dday her husband saw little enough progress towards R that D started to get discussed. I think that he recommended that she post on SI, and I think that’s where things started to turn around for them.

SI was not her wake-up call. She found out OM had been lying to her and had another relationship, and that she was about to throw her marriage away for a creep. That’s the point when she started working on herself, which included posting on SI.

I’m not disparaging her at all (she has grown substantially and gives very insightful advice to others). My point is that SI can only help an wayward who is actually willing and receptive to change. There are successful couples on here, of course, but I just think it is better for a wayward to find this site on their own because it shows they’re being proactive.

but I just think it is better for a wayward to find this site on their own because it shows they’re being proactive

Yup

But, if we are steering our WS's towards forums and buying books for them and having to constantly validate ourselves with source materials they approve of, aren't we working too hard, doing too much of the work?

IME, yup.

SI can only help an wayward who is actually willing and receptive to change....I just think it is better for a wayward to find this site on their own because it shows they’re being proactive.

IME, also yup.

I "required" my WH to find accountability partner(s) - folks he could bounce his (IMO warped) thinking off of and get feedback, cuz him living in his own brain has a lot to do with how he ended up in this mess. So, I outlined what I wanted to see, but he had options: could be SI, could be group therapy, could be SAA, could even be WEEKLY IC, or he could propose something else that he believed would meet the goal. He posted on SI a few times, even had another WS reach out to him (which was such a wonderful thing, IMO), which WH ignored. Hence my agreement with the above - we can lead these folks to water, but we cannot make them drink and, IMO/IME, the energy spent leading them to the damn water can be counterproductive for the BS.

There are certainly WS on SI who regularly contribute w/o their BS (in at least one instance, it's safe to assume the BS is not on SI bc the WS has not yet told their BS about their infidelity).

If the WS won’t change, after reading about their BS’ trauma and heartache, as well as reading the other forums (especially the Wayward one), should the BS simply move to D?

Personally, I don't know that "reading about" their BS' trauma makes much difference. Any WS can read any # of recommended books (or podcasts, or YouTube videos, etc) that will delve (sometimes quite deeply) into the BS pain/trauma, etc. Moreover, as another poster said, the WS usually SEES that trauma on a daily basis.... many/most/all (?) BS will be routinely communicating that pain in the day-to-day. I'm not sure what SI (wonderful as it is) has to do with it.

And I've seen WS on SI (with and w/o their BS also being on SI) for a long time (months- maybe even years) before the WS really "got" it and started making progress or changing.

To me, the bottom line is that every BS must weigh for themself what is/is not "change" in their WS, what the BS needs & wants (not always the same, maybe they CAN get the needs, but not the wants), what they are and are not willing to put up with, and if they are willing to stay while there may be "progress" but not much "change" in the WS. And THEN the BS needs to decide if s/he/them are in a place to heal/grow/find acceptance and commit to R and to forging a new relationship. IOW, I believe that work needs to happen regardless of whether a WS is on SI / reading about the pain of a BS.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 7:06 PM, Friday, January 14th]

It’s perhaps tied up with the never ending question of how could this person, the loving spouse, witness the BS’ pain and trauma yet care little or do little?

I’ve studied a bit on the subject of genocide: how could normal Germans, just like any one of us, murder so many in such a cold hearted calculating way? How could Rwandans kill 800,000 of their friends and neighbors?Americans committed genocide against the Indians. And, how could my loving and thoughtful spouse choose to cheat on me, inflict trauma snd pain, without blinking an eye? How can all of this be reconciled?

In this context of genocide, the ultimate abuse, research shows that any one of us, anywhere throughout the world, given the right circumstances and conditions, is capable of inflicting abuse and trauma.

So was the WS a broken person ahead of time, or were they more like the perpetrators of genocide - good people until a specific confluence of circumstances and conditions arose? And, if that’s the case, isn’t every one of us capable of cheating, given the right confluence of circumstances snd conditions?

I would like to think not, but world history of cruelty to our supposed friends and neighbors says otherwise. WS are broken people? Were they broken for just that moment in time during their A, like the perpetrators of genocide, or is their a deeper meaning to their cheating?

So much of the past 4 or 5 years has been a blur that I cannot remember if my STBXWW has accessed SI, but I'm willing to bet no. Early on I would have kept it as my safe space, so it is unlikely I pointed her here. Plus she is pretty lazy intellectually, and creating makes her head hurt. Readi g introspective stuff could cause an aneurysm. I did buy a stack of infidelity books before finding SI and some helped, some hurt. I tore through them looking for that elusive answer to why my life had become shit. My STBXWW almost read them. They remained in a drawer on her side of the bed waiting for time to read them. I kept warning her that her house was burning and she was rearranging the furniture. Gave her 7 months and filed. Oh how I wished I had found SI right away...

True R is extremely rare but if you have to try and lead your WS down the path to understanding, while they are kicking and fighting, why bother? They should be approaching the task with a frantic dispositiontrying to stave off the divorce you just filed for. We always post about actions being the only indicator of true remorse.

Early on, I really appreciated reading the wayward forum as it gave me a glimpse into a world filled with people very different from myself. I came to understand that the wayward mind is calibrated very differently. Kudos to those reformed waywards that have posted so honestly and with the intent of helping.

I would like to think not, but world history of cruelty to our supposed friends and neighbors says otherwise. WS are broken people? Were they broken for just that moment in time during their A, like the perpetrators of genocide, or is their a deeper meaning to their cheating?

I'm not a personal fan of relating the act of genocide to adultery, mainly because (1) the existence of genocide, which is still going strong in some areas of the globe today, really makes it difficult to believe that people are genuinely good. I do still believe this concept, but it is mind boggling how these acts of atrocities have not been abandoned by all people on this planet. Indoctrination is an incredibly powerful tool, and unfortunately, it is still often used for evil. And that's the SAD part....they aren't eradicating for their own personal pleasures; they are doing it because they believe in it. For whatever reason(s) they believe it should be done.

Adultery, on the other hand, while quite evil in nature, is really at the individual level. Most, and I say most, aren't going out with the specific mission to destroy you....literally what genocide does. And I think that the 'brokenness' of each wayward is very unique, although the damages are similar. I know that we aren't supposed to make comparisons to the 'levels' of adultery, but I think that it is very possible that an 18 year old who cheated on their partner may not be very 'broken'. Or the 75 year old, after 50 years of marriage, has now cheated for the first time. It's kind of like the statistic for divorce--it doesn't matter if you were married for one year or sixty....if you divorce, the statistic is just the same---a 'failed' marriage.

I know for me personally, I wouldn't want to be defined in entirety by one portion of my life. I'm the sum of the parts. I have done foolish things, and have done wise things. The same goes for ANY wayward---they are a sum of the parts. And don't get me wrong---there are PLENTY of very broken people who continue to make shitty decision after shitty decision throughout their lives. Their legacy will almost certainly be defined by their actions....both good and bad.

ETA--

I tried to make my WW post here shortly after I found SI. You can look up her resounding TWO posts in 10 years.

Infidelity websites aren't for everyone.....although thankfully, she got her act back together. But at a huge cost to us both.