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Trdd ( member #65989) posted at 12:17 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

It hurts but your action was a clear headed; you stood up for yourself and this is the path to your healing. Let him go. Do not play tbe pick me dance any longer.

It is entirely possible he will come back when he realizes just what he will lose and who the ow really is. Or maybe not. Either way, you can't keep having panic attacks and being a doormat.

The pick me dance will not win him back. You've tried it and it hasn't worked. Can you see that now?

Taking care of yourself, your kids and building strength and confidence is what you need to do. As a side effect, it may also make you more attractive to him. It may help him see what he is going to lose. If so, then you can welcome him back. But only if he goes full NC with the ow.

Hold your ground!

posts: 441   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8698659
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 keljpvs (original poster member #79553) posted at 12:19 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

@OwningItNow I don’t think he’s coming over to talk to ask to come back. I’m afraid he’s going to tell me something horrible. I just don’t know what. Or it could be that he just wants to make sure we’re ok. I want to tell him I know about the texts and how can he not see that she has manipulated him so badly. She pushed him to leave us.

I still doubt my decision. I want him here. With us. This house feels so big and empty without him. I never thought I could hurt this much. It’s unbearable.

I only slept a couple hours last night. Was up with the oldest crying all night. She has a lot she wants to say to her father. She wrote them all down and if the things she wants to say dont sting him then he has no soul.

OW has started posting pics of herself wearing his clothes. No one else would know that but us. My daughter saw that! How could OW do that?? How do I get him to understand that we need time to grieve? From the tests I saw she has him whipped and he does whatever she says. How can I get it through his head that we are more important?

The tears started flowing again as soon as I woke up. I have an emergency IC session this afternoon. Already called out of work. Didn’t say what’s going on but I’m going to need a few days and not sure how to communicate that. 😭😭😭

He kissed me for the last time when he walked out. 25 years of kissing him, feeling his touch. I don’t know how to be alone….without him.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:05 PM, Monday, December 6th]

[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:25 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

posts: 58   ·   registered: Nov. 2nd, 2021   ·   location: Fredericksburg,VA
id 8698660
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 keljpvs (original poster member #79553) posted at 12:36 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

@BluerThanBlue the reason I want to tell him about the text messages is for him to know that when I didn’t think he could hurt me any worse those text messages did. The callousness in the way he talked about me. After I have stood by him these torturous weeks. He keeps saying he loves me and didn’t want to hurt me. Yet those texts say something completely different. That gutted what was left of me.

I don’t think he would come back if I asked him to. Does part of me want to? Of course I do! This nightmare is more painful than I could have ever imagined. But I won’t.

I just hope he lives up to everything he told me last night. He said he would take care of us, do maintenance work on the house and whatever we needed.

The other issue is that she is trying to move down to NC where her family and kids are. How do I keep him from leaving the state? The kids are already crushed and my oldest said she wants to tell him that’s not ok and he can’t. I’m so scared to be alone. I need him close by. OW has been sending pics of houses down there to him.

So that’s the most important question? How do I keep him from moving away from us?? 😭😭

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:05 PM, Monday, December 6th]

[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:26 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

posts: 58   ·   registered: Nov. 2nd, 2021   ·   location: Fredericksburg,VA
id 8698662
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Catwoman ( member #1330) posted at 12:43 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

So that’s the most important question? How do I keep him from moving away from us??

You see an attorney and file for divorce and in your petition put in something about neither party will move more than X miles from the other. That is the ONLY way you can force this. The. Only. Way.

File for divorce, include an emergency petition for child support and the moving thing (as well as anything else your attorney indicates would be beneficial to you). Otherwise, he can up sticks and leave and you have NO RECOURSE.

Let that sink in: NO RECOURSE.

So, find the biggest and baddest attorneys in your area (PM me and I can walk you through how to find a shark in a suit), interview them (some offer a free hour consult, some do not) and find out what you can reasonably expect in a divorce. The bonus to seeing the really good attorneys is that once you have consulted with them, your husband cannot use them.

I cannot emphasize enough the importance of getting this done NOW. Otherwise, you will come home and find him packing and your have no way of ensuring he doesn't move away and stick you with all the family responsibilities. Oh, and maybe skate on support, too. You have no legal standing until you file. I hope you do and soon.

Cat

FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 27 and 24. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

posts: 32986   ·   registered: Apr. 5th, 2003   ·   location: Massachusetts
id 8698663
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AnnieOakley ( member #13332) posted at 1:19 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

@kel we understand the trauma that you are experiencing. Please take actions to protect your children and yourself.

Reach out to Cat. She knows what she is talking about. Look at her registered date! Dealing with lawyers is overwhelming, please accept her guidance so you have some clear "must do" items on a list.

Me= BSHim=xWH (did the work & became the man I always thought he was, but it was too late)M=23+,T=27+dday=7/06, 8/09 (pics at a work function), 11/09 VAR, 6/12 Sep'd, 10/14 Divorced."If you are going through hell, keep going."

posts: 1694   ·   registered: Jan. 18th, 2007   ·   location: Pacific Time Zone
id 8698665
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BraveSirRobin ( Guide #69242) posted at 1:56 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

You need a lawyer to help explain how you can control the damage here. Do you have anyone you can trust to help you with that? You're in pain, you're in shock, and no one thinks clearly under those conditions.

WW/BW 50s (Me)
BH/WH 50s (TimeSpiral)

posts: 2379   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8698670
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BraveSirRobin ( Guide #69242) posted at 2:42 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

Also, I debated whether to bring this up now because you're still reeling, but I think it should be on your radar. Maybe other members can weigh in.

I am assuming that far as your kids know right now, their dad is the only parent who cheated. If so, it's unlikely that they will remain in the dark indefinitely. There's a 99.9% likelihood that he told the OW about your past infidelity. There's now a 95% chance that one of them, he or she, will tell the kids about it as a means of defending what they are doing. The remaining five percent is only if the OW decides that it's in her best interest to keep quiet, because she doesn't want your kids intruding in her love nest, and having them pissed at him and supporting you is the best way to ensure that. Even then, at some point when she's feeling challenged or aggrieved, she may drop it on them just to hurt you.

What's happening to your kids, right now, is the FOO that will influence their future coping skills with relationships. I do not think you should hide your infidelity from them. I think you should talk to a therapist about the best way to convey the information, so they know that you made a terrible decision in the past, and their father rightly insisted that you end the As and work on yourself to do and be better. That's what you did, and it's also what you had a right to expect from him. If you make it a teachable moment, they will know that you'll always tell them the truth. But if they find out from someone else, and they think you tricked them by pretending total innocence, it will be hard to get their trust back.

WW/BW 50s (Me)
BH/WH 50s (TimeSpiral)

posts: 2379   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8698674
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Dude67 ( member #75700) posted at 3:30 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

OP - do your children know about your affair? I think it makes a difference in how you both approach a conversation with them.

posts: 210   ·   registered: Oct. 21st, 2020
id 8698680
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Walkthestorm ( member #72157) posted at 4:03 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

OP hugs to you. This truly awful.

Please let it sink in that none of this is your fault. I believe your husband was capable of cheating regardless if you cheated first or not at all. He fell for the bull the OW has been feeding him without pause.

Unfortunetly there is nothing you can do to stop him from moving. What you can do is to protect yourself by seing a lawyer and if you have a joint accounts, open up one in your name only and transfeer funds into it. I would not trust a word he said about helping out with the house and finances. The OW has 4 kids and you know where his priorities are. If he moves he must quit his job.

I would advise you to let him know that you are not willing to talk at this point and that you need time to process the events unfolding. Take some time to go full NC with him. Make yourself and your kids priorities right now. Reach out to friends and family for support. Get in touch with a doctor to help with sleeping aids.

You will be ok. It will take time but you will be ok. The only one you can control is yourself.

P.s. the ow wearing his clothes for all of you to see is plain disrespectful to you and his kids. His way of treating you overall is cruel. None of you deserve this. Hang in there!

posts: 89   ·   registered: Nov. 26th, 2019
id 8698686
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Catwoman ( member #1330) posted at 4:04 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

I do not think you should hide your infidelity from them. I think you should talk to a therapist about the best way to convey the information, so they know that you made a terrible decision in the past, and their father rightly insisted that you end the As and work on yourself to do and be better. That's what you did, and it's also what you had a right to expect from him.

^^^^^^This. 1000% this.

Cat

FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 27 and 24. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

posts: 32986   ·   registered: Apr. 5th, 2003   ·   location: Massachusetts
id 8698687
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 keljpvs (original poster member #79553) posted at 4:20 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

@BraveSirRobin the kids know about my infidelity. He made me tell them when he found out so no secrets here. But I appreciate what you’re saying.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:05 PM, Monday, December 6th]

[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:26 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

posts: 58   ·   registered: Nov. 2nd, 2021   ·   location: Fredericksburg,VA
id 8698691
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PSTI ( member #53103) posted at 7:24 PM on Tuesday, November 16th, 2021

OW has started posting pics of herself wearing his clothes. No one else would know that but us. My daughter saw that! How could OW do that?? How do I get him to understand that we need time to grieve? From the tests I saw she has him whipped and he does whatever she says. How can I get it through his head that we are more important?

The tears started flowing again as soon as I woke up. I have an emergency IC session this afternoon. Already called out of work. Didn’t say what’s going on but I’m going to need a few days and not sure how to communicate that. ??????

Gently... but do you see you are making excuses for him? He's an adult, and he makes his own decisions. She doesn't "have him whipped", that's an abdication of his responsibility. He is choosing to act this way.

He is the one who made promises to you. She didn't. Do you see how inconsistent it is to be upset with her for his choices?

Unfortunately, as for him respecting you needing time to grieve, or that you are more important... he isn't thinking of you right now. He's thinking of himself, and that HE is more important. Don't give away your autonomy. If you need time not to see what he's doing, block him and her on social media. You can't expect him to be making decisions to put you and your kids first when he's literally walking out the door to someone else.

I know it's hard, and I know it's not what you want. But you can't make someone stay with you who doesn't want to do that. There is literally nothing you can do. You need to start thinking of yourself and your kids, since he clearly isn't.

When my xH walked out, he didn't even bother to see our child for months afterwards, even though he was living only a 40 minute drive away. It was a terrible thing to do. But it was his choice to do it, and he reaps the consequences of hurting his kid like that.

That being said? I'm not sure how great it is for the kids to be right in the middle like this. I would look into counseling for them, too, because this can absolutely mess them up.

I know you're hurting... but you're a mom. You gotta keep putting one foot in front of the other because you have kids watching you, who need you. You can't fall apart on them because they're watching how you handle trauma and that will inform their responses as they get older. You need to teach them how to be strong and to take care of themselves.

Me: BW, my xH left me & DS after a 14 year marriage for the AP in 2014.

Happily remarried and in an open/polyamorous relationship. DH (married 3 years) & DBF (dating 2 years). Cohabitating happily all together!! <3

posts: 745   ·   registered: May. 6th, 2016
id 8698731
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OwningItNow ( member #52288) posted at 1:04 AM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

What a horrible, selfish father. There is no justification for how he has treated your kids. None.

me: BS/WSh: WS/BS

Reject the rejector. Do not reject yourself.

posts: 5349   ·   registered: Mar. 16th, 2016   ·   location: Midwest
id 8698798
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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 3:55 AM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

I am so sorry that he has done this to you and your children. I know that it feels impossible to live through right now. I know it feels like everything is lost. I know that telling you time will help doesn't fix a thing today. He is a fool. He will realize that, but quite possibly after he has caused so much damage that you no longer want him. I can tell you that as impossible as it seems, you will want him less if you allow yourself to. If you let yourself see him for who he is. Yes, the OW sounds like a complete toxic stew, but right now he is also a complete toxic stew. He isn't being manipulated into doing this. He's doing it of his own free will. This is who he is right now. This is not someone who is safe for you. I think we all go through the stage of "but he's not really this person", and I'm sure he has better sides to him than this and that he hasn't always been this person. Right now, this is him. Right now, he is a man who left his sobbing wife and children to go live with another woman. For your sake and theirs, you have to accept that reality and act accordingly. Even if you wind up back together, that probably will only happen as a result of you not allowing him to walk all over you. No matter what you want in the future, you have to take the steps of contacting an attorney and getting all of that divorce stuff underway. You WILL be okay. I promise, you will. We've all been through some pretty horrific stuff and come through on the other side. There is peace and happiness in your future. It's quite a road to get there, though. We'll be here for you on that journey.

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

posts: 4783   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017
id 8698833
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guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 12:26 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

I wrote once on this thread and now when I go back and read it again, I see that I didn't need to change a single word. In your response you perceived what I wrote as a lack of empathy towards you and ignoring your pain. Some perceived it as misogyny. None of them were true, but frankly, I didn't feel the need to argue with them, I just wanted to show you the objective truth. It was up to you to evaluate it or not.

Now I see that things are not going well and everyone is attacking your husband in the most severe way, excluding what you had done to him, or in the most optimistic case, adding the phrase "whatever you had done".

What they have minimized and even ignored is the cause of all that has happened. This is A fact. No matter what they say about your husband, no one can change that.

Let me tell you what objectivity is.

If only your husband, not you, had come here right after DDay and told his story, assuming you didn't do what a typical cheater would do and told him all the truth, still everyone here would have told him to run.

If he had come now and not right after DDay and he told his story and said, "my wife is remorseful and doing the right things, but I still can't get over it, she slept with 5 men and was ready to leave me for someone who is married and has kids, she broke something inside me and I can't feel the same anymore no matter what she does. And now there is someone who loves and desires me as I am, and I fell in love with her too", no one would tell him that he did wrong because he left you. Everyone would say if it is a deal breaker it is a deal breaker, he doesn't stay married to you just because you are remorseful and doing the right things. None of these insults were to be made. He just would simply advised to be careful about his new relationship.

The only difference here is the subject. And change of the subject should not change the object so much for the outsider. We should look at everything as it is.

Looking at the events objectively and realistically ensures that the solution is also realistic. Has others continued insults about your H changed the result, helped you get what you wanted?

As for what you should do now; accept everything as it is.

Stop making excuses that start with "I am remorseful and did everything right, but he...".

And stop crying and begging, you won't get anything that way. Respect yourself.

You should calmly tell him that you are aware of the horror of what you have done to him, but that after realizing it you tried to do everything right, and that you understand that it was not enough, and that this is one of the possible consequences and you haven't rigt to ask him to stay. Reassure him of a fair and hassle-free divorce (that doesn't mean accept whatever he wants), tell him you're sure he will be fair too. After that, say that you hope to cooperate for your childrens best.

Don't say things like you're always ready if he wants to come back. Act like someone who has self respect and also respect for him. You should earn his respect with these actions. It's not possible for you to turn him back on his decision right now. But it seems that the OW isn't the right one either. You are not the right person to show him this. Either someone else has to show it or he will see it by experiencing. When the fog clears and he returns the reality he may remember your mature and respectful attitude during this period. Then if he wants to return, you will evaluate the situation.

These may not happen, but it won't happen otherwise either. It doesn't even have to be. What you did to him, what he did to you, perhaps irreversibly destroyed this relationship. If we think optimistically, perhaps a more honest and loyal relationship will be established where both sides are equally damaged and healed.

[This message edited by guvensiz at 12:29 PM, Wednesday, November 17th]

posts: 620   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8698860
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 4:20 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

** Posting as a member **

T/J -

guvensiz,

You seem to think you know what this WS is thinking. How in heaven's name des that work?

An equally valid interpretation of the actions reported in this thread is:

WH took in kel's A and decided he could use it any way he wanted to use it. Now he's using it to justify his own awful actions - actions that are both awful and self-destructive, if kel's view of ow is accurate. But that's just a possible scenario - I have no idea what kel's WH is actually thinking. Neither do you, unless you know both kel and her WH IRL. Even then I'd have my doubts that you got it right.

Certainly your view of what's going on in WH's head may be right, but you've constructed 2 posts on the basis of facts not in evidence.

How do you think your posts would help kel or your readers? How have they helped you?

My tagline used to be something like. 'I trigger insanely on over-generalizations.' Maybe I'll change it to 'I trigger insanely on bad epistemology.'

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 26513   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8698888
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PSTI ( member #53103) posted at 5:48 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

guvensiz,

if you think her H would have been treated that way in your simulation, I respectfully suggest you are insulting SI members.

I seriously doubt that anyone here would have applauded as he walked out on his children. When you're a parent, you have responsibilities no matter what you want for yourself.

Secondly, a decent person who had made the choice to leave would tell his wife that and not string her along like this. He decided to be a cake eater and have both, knowing the emotional torment he was putting her through and continuing to feed her crap about how he loves her. Those are not loving actions. If he was done with her and done with the marriage, an honourable person would have said so.

That is NOT the situation here.

And your comment about both sides causing equal harm so maybe they can build a healthy relationship now??? I find so repellant I can't even consider where to start from this. Anyone who thinks that they need to equally harm their spouse to forgive them isn't going to be a person who can build a healthy relationship, period. Healthy people don't punish their partners in that manner.

Me: BW, my xH left me & DS after a 14 year marriage for the AP in 2014.

Happily remarried and in an open/polyamorous relationship. DH (married 3 years) & DBF (dating 2 years). Cohabitating happily all together!! <3

posts: 745   ·   registered: May. 6th, 2016
id 8698909
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guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 5:50 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

Again the "how could you..." questioning?
I have already expressed my thoughts on the story. I stated that what OP's husband did was inappropriate, but could not be defined as cheating, and the wayward of the story was OP. I also explained their reasons. So, I think I explained the reasons for my thoughts despite my poor English. Despite this, I still can't understand why I'm being asked how I could think like that.

I really don't get the point. I didn't say anything about the OP's husband thoughts in mu post, but I've been told of speaking as if I knew all his thoughts etc.
And the person who told this to me can say these sentences.

WH took in kel's A and decided he could use it any way he wanted to use it. Now he's using it to justify his own awful actions - actions that are both awful and self-destructive,

Oh, I'm sorry, if you add this after it, it's fine, right?
if kel's view of ow is accurate. But that's just a possible scenario - I have no idea what kel's WH is actually thinking. Neither do you, unless you know both kel and her WH IRL.
When you add this, you are not judged. Moreover, it is an expression added in order not to contradict what was said to me here, and these sentences are not constructed like that at other times.

All posts are full of judgmental sentences on OP's husband, I guess everyone is from the same town with them except me.

I'm explaining everything I said based on the OP's explanation and establishing a cause and effect relationship. So I'm already telling you how I can think like that. The point to be discussed should not be the question of how I can think these things, but what and why I am thinking wrong, if you think I'm wrong. If I don't have the right to express an opinion just because I don't know them in the real world, I guess this should apply to everyone. This is not a valid objection to me. What I say must be objectively falsified.
For instance; You should be able to say "you're wrong because OP didn't sleep with 5 guys and cheat on her husband". Because I base some of my thoughts on it. Do you have any concrete objections to this?
I can't remember exactly but I read some opinion like, that OP's husband would cheat on her even if she hadn't cheated on him.

Now I wonder why the reaction not shown to such sentences is shown to my sentences. Moreover, I don't have such a judgmental sentence. Is it because I don't think like you? Okay, send me what to write and I'll send it then. It would really be easier for me.

posts: 620   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8698910
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KingRat ( member #60678) posted at 6:18 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

Looking at the events objectively and realistically ensures that the solution is also realistic. Has others continued insults about your H changed the result, helped you get what you wanted?

Respectfully, before you call out others for bias or subjectivity, it is best to make sure you are not doing the same.

If he had come now and not right after DDay and he told his story and said, "my wife is remorseful and doing the right things, but I still can't get over it, she slept with 5 men and was ready to leave me for someone who is married and has kids, she broke something inside me and I can't feel the same anymore no matter what she does. And now there is someone who loves and desires me as I am, and I fell in love with her too", no one would tell him that he did wrong because he left you. Everyone would say if it is a deal breaker it is a deal breaker, he doesn't stay married to you just because you are remorseful and doing the right things. None of these insults were to be made. He just would simply advised to be careful about his new relationship.

While you did a good job at being objective in the facts that are not kind to her, you completely glossed over any facts that would put him in a bad light and actually misrepresented one. He did not leave her; he is still in fact married to her, cohabitating, and having physical relations. The agreed upon "boundaries" of his secondary relationship are being violated (since he is the one with the duty to enforce them--that's on him), and he has been giving her mixed messages. None of the above was specifically and graphically illustrated (save but the damning facts against her) in your hypothetical, which you are basing your opinion on.

Yes, all members, like people, have biases that come into play when giving advice and only addressing a specific situation brings an element of subjective to that advice in regards of the entire situation. But it is not a good look to bolster another biased opinion, which in and of itself you are completely entitled to give, as "(t)ell(ing) (us) what objectivity is" in an effort to minimize or invalidate the opinions of others.

posts: 671   ·   registered: Sep. 18th, 2017
id 8698915
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guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 7:59 PM on Wednesday, November 17th, 2021

While you did a good job at being objective in the facts that are not kind to her, you completely glossed over any facts that would put him in a bad light and actually misrepresented one.

Oh, really? Do you think this summary of the story, which I wrote briefly as an example, is the worst version for the OP and the best version for her husband?

"my wife is remorseful and doing the right things, but I still can't get over it, she slept with 5 men and was ready to leave me for someone who is married and has kids, she broke something inside me and I can't feel the same anymore no matter what she does. And now there is someone who loves and desires me as I am, and I fell in love with her too",

These are all OP's statements, not mine.

And as you can see, I'm saying my opinions by accepting the best version for her as valid.

Stop responding to the stories you've made up in your head, accepting what I didn't say as if I said it.

What statement do I have that confirms what her husband is doing now?

Approving and finding it right, and finding the occurrence of such behavior understandable are very different things.

I don't want to talk too much about writings about what I wrote. All very unrelated to what I wrote. I'm not sure you actually read them carefully. I always talk about my bad English but I don't know if it's really that bad or if some people just don't want to understand it.

It was mentioned that I insulted SI members.

Sorry but with all due respect, victimizing someone who cheated on her husband by sleeping with 5 guys and dehumanizing the husband who didn't respond in the most perfect way to this trauma seems more insulting to SI to me.

When I say this, I don't want to be harsh about OP. I'm really sorry for her situation, if I had bad intentions for her and thought that her husband should get rid of her, I would simply advise her to divorce. But she declared that she doesn't wan't D. I'm already advising D in the current situation, but I'm just telling what her attitude should be in order to have the possibility of being together again in the future. I don't think her husbands A is healthy, and it's likely to be over after a while. A friendly divorce rather than a hostile one is more beneficial for both her and the children at that stage.

I just wanted to express these. If these do not fit her mind, she already implements other ideas. I don't understand what bothers others so much. I don't understand why I had to say the same things 5 times either.

PS: I will not respond to any posts that target me. Don't take this as rude, but I don't have time to deal with this. My ideas are written down, you can read them over and over.

[This message edited by guvensiz at 8:04 PM, Wednesday, November 17th]

posts: 620   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8698929
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