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TheLostOne2020 ( member #72463) posted at 4:27 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

Legatus

TheLostOne2020 - I don't have her journal, if one even exists, I think you have me mixed up with another post. A journal I never was supposed to see would be great though. Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.

My apologies - I got my wires crossed.

That said, I suspect that you see the need for a timeline?

I'm really latching onto the concept of the timeline's purpose being so I know what I'm being asked to forgive. Even with forgiveness there is still a point where I can see myself forgiving, but still moving forward with D. Then, sometimes there is no forgiveness.

Think of forgiveness as letting go of the anger and hurt - not in terms as to whether you reconcile or not.

D-Day 1: New Year's Day 2020
D-Day 2: Jan 21 2020
There was no D-Day 3.

6/12/2020: Moved out.

3/02/2021: Officially divorced.

I'm 42 and just starting to have the answers to the universe...

posts: 892   ·   registered: Jan. 3rd, 2020   ·   location: NoVa
id 8678853
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faithfulman ( member #66002) posted at 6:28 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

Legatus, we all feel similarly but put a little bit of different emphasis on the purpose of a timeline.

For me, the purpose of the timeline is to have an authoritative reference of what the cheater claims is the true story of the illicit relationship.

However, you can be CERTAIN that the first timeline will be rife with all kinds of lies: omissions, minimization, obfuscation, and just straight-up untrue statements.

Having said that, in my view the timeline serves several purposes with regard to getting at the truth:

- You can compare it to what you already know but have not revealed you know to gauge the current intent of your cheating partner: Lie some more or try to come clean?

- It serves as a way to see what your partner's effort level is. Does the cheater try to race through it, skip over everything,. not do it at all? Or do they take it seriously?

- You can use it to "dig deeper" and attempt to clarify or figure out any details you want to know - even if your cheater or someone else deems them to be pornographic or offensive - it is your right to ask what you feel you need to know.

- You can use it as a tool if you want to go the polygraph route.

- It serves as a bulwark against gaslighting and backtracking: "I never said that!", "I don't recall saying that!", "That wasn't what I meant!" and so on.

- The information helps you decide if you want to even make the effort to try and reconcile.

***

That is the type of information is what I think it is best used for.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 1:04 PM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

posts: 877   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2018
id 8678918
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 8:05 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

In your case, it should be easy to assess whether she's lying her timeline. If no PA is mentioned, or is limited to just makeout sessions, then you can simply throw it in the trash.

BW, age 40
Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried to a great guy

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 505   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8678953
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Smjsome1 ( member #60691) posted at 8:23 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

Can I add (haven’t read the entire story)

My WH’s timeline broke up his compartmentalization - he had to see the entirety of his actions.

He was shocked because before he could just look at small bits of his actions, instead he had to face up to it all at once. And he has since told me that after he’d written it out he remembered a few more “things”, which he found disturbing because “after all I’d written out, to have MORE”

me/BW - 50, WH - 54 32 years married
DD1 Aug 5, 2017 - TT, still in contact.
DD2 Aug 30 admitted to 2 1/2 week PA, & 3 1/2 still in contact.
DD 3 - Sept 18 deleted his yahoo
DD4 - Sept 29, so much more. SA
polygraph Oct 20, maybe now we R?

posts: 692   ·   registered: Sep. 19th, 2017
id 8678960
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 2:08 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

So, I've been going back and rereading communication between my wife and I from the last time we were in this spot. Not surprisingly she is saying all the same things. She is also wanting to sweep it under the rug like before. She's been leaving me cards on my pillow every night with the most recent one asking for another chance. I let her know this morning that I could not even consider giving her another chance unless I had a complete and honest timeline backed up by a polygraph. I can tell she doesn't want to do the polygraph. She still maintains it's weird and makes comments like "if I have to I will". Mmmm, no, the correct answer is "yes, of coarse I will take one, whatever it takes to show you I'm being honest". I let her know I've been waiting three years for honesty and this is not something she can just wait out in hopes of it going away and things magically getting better. I told her, and this is true, that last time I mostly hoped for reconciliation and every once and awhile wanted divorce. This time I want divorce and only every once and awhile hope for reconciliation. Regardless of divorce or reconciliation I want to whole truth. I understand that is something I'll likely never get.

I met with my IC yesterday and she agreed that I seem to be handling this in a good way. She has always been a friend to the marriage in the sense she talks about ways to avoid divorce. Smaller steps that can be taken before actually getting divorced. She wasn't talking about those steps this time. She knows my wife's IC professionally and suggested I ask my wife to sign a release so she can talk to the other IC to make sure he's getting the entire truth. But in the end we decided that would be me being the police man again and let the idea go.

I asked my wife a few questions via text message three days ago and have still not received and answer. I wanted to know specifically when the communication resumed. Who initiated it, and what was said about me during the initial messages in regards to keeping it covert. I asked how it felt for her and what she felt about me when it happened. I know this is timeline stuff, but that question was rattling around in my head. Since I've asked I've gotten cards, and statement from her that she understands how much she's hurt me, but no answer. Which lets me know she doesn't get it. In my mind she's still only interested in maintaining her lifestyle.

Let me ask you if my the way I'm thinking about this is reasonable. If I put myself in her shoes and make the assumption that she really is done with the affair, sorry about it, and wants to heal our relationship. I feel like I would already be balls deep in writing a timeline out. I feel like I would be super responsive and complete in answering any questions. Is that unreasonable for me to have that expectation of her?

posts: 83   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
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asc1226 ( member #75363) posted at 2:33 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Is that unreasonable for me to have that expectation of her?

It’s not at all unreasonable for someone who is truly remorseful. She’s going hard with the I’m sorries and hoping to rugsweep because that’s what worked last time.

I make edits, words is hard

posts: 376   ·   registered: Sep. 7th, 2020
id 8679806
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TheLostOne2020 ( member #72463) posted at 2:34 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Legatus

So, I've been going back and rereading communication between my wife and I from the last time we were in this spot. Not surprisingly she is saying all the same things. She is also wanting to sweep it under the rug like before. She's been leaving me cards on my pillow every night with the most recent one asking for another chance. I let her know this morning that I could not even consider giving her another chance unless I had a complete and honest timeline backed up by a polygraph.

It's trite but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. You need actions, not words.

I can tell she doesn't want to do the polygraph. She still maintains it's weird and makes comments like "if I have to I will". Mmmm, no, the correct answer is "yes, of coarse I will take one, whatever it takes to show you I'm being honest".

Exactly. Her reticence indicates to me that she is being less than truthful.

I let her know I've been waiting three years for honesty and this is not something she can just wait out in hopes of it going away and things magically getting better. I told her, and this is true, that last time I mostly hoped for reconciliation and every once and awhile wanted divorce. This time I want divorce and only every once and awhile hope for reconciliation. Regardless of divorce or reconciliation I want to whole truth. I understand that is something I'll likely never get.

I met with my IC yesterday and she agreed that I seem to be handling this in a good way. She has always been a friend to the marriage in the sense she talks about ways to avoid divorce. Smaller steps that can be taken before actually getting divorced. She wasn't talking about those steps this time. She knows my wife's IC professionally and suggested I ask my wife to sign a release so she can talk to the other IC to make sure he's getting the entire truth. But in the end we decided that would be me being the police man again and let the idea go.

I wouldn't want to be the relationship police and you don't appear to want that either. Your wife blew her chance and she's attempting to scrabble for another chance. She needs to act, not just supplicant you with words. Even then it's probably too late.

I asked my wife a few questions via text message three days ago and have still not received and answer.

It was probably her. That said, you deserve an answer and her reluctance should be noted.

I wanted to know specifically when the communication resumed. Who initiated it, and what was said about me during the initial messages in regards to keeping it covert. I asked how it felt for her and what she felt about me when it happened. I know this is timeline stuff, but that question was rattling around in my head. Since I've asked I've gotten cards, and statement from her that she understands how much she's hurt me, but no answer. Which lets me know she doesn't get it. In my mind she's still only interested in maintaining her lifestyle.

If she still wants to be married and she understands what she's put you through then she wouldn't be making you wait. She wouldn't be trying to paper over everything with 'cards' and 'words'. I'd tell her that it's been three days and it's clear that she's just trying to pacify you, not trying to actually account for or fix the marriage.

Let me ask you if my the way I'm thinking about this is reasonable. If I put myself in her shoes and make the assumption that she really is done with the affair, sorry about it, and wants to heal our relationship. I feel like I would already be balls deep in writing a timeline out. I feel like I would be super responsive and complete in answering any questions. Is that unreasonable for me to have that expectation of her?

No, it's not unreasonable at all. You are saying that you are getting a divorce and this is the only way that could possibly save it - to save a marriage she launched a nuke at twice.

Her stalling is unreasonable.

Personally I would just take her inaction as action. She isn't trying to commit to saving the marriage. Her behavior tells you everything.

D-Day 1: New Year's Day 2020
D-Day 2: Jan 21 2020
There was no D-Day 3.

6/12/2020: Moved out.

3/02/2021: Officially divorced.

I'm 42 and just starting to have the answers to the universe...

posts: 892   ·   registered: Jan. 3rd, 2020   ·   location: NoVa
id 8679807
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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 2:50 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Sorry man but it’s just another rugsweep. Sorry she got caught AGAIN.

posts: 6707   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
id 8679815
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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 3:21 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

You are not unreasonable. She is throwing all of her energy into lovebombing you back into submission because it worked before. Do not back down. She has the energy and ability to immediately answer your questions. She is choosing not to because she is still choosing her comfort over your health or safety. She is watching you hurt and choosing to keep hurting you to protect herself. I am sure this is what your IC pointed out to you.

At this point, her inaction shows her choice. She will not be honest, she will not do what you tell her you need and she will not suddenly learn empathy. She is playing a game of chicken because it has worked out for her all of the other times. This is NOT remorse.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 9:24 AM, July 30th (Friday)]

posts: 138   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
id 8679825
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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 3:21 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Sorry duplicate

[This message edited by clouds777 at 9:23 AM, July 30th (Friday)]

posts: 138   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 3:21 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Sorry duplicate

[This message edited by clouds777 at 9:23 AM, July 30th (Friday)]

posts: 138   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
id 8679827
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Kindern ( new member #78441) posted at 3:21 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Legatus, She’s clearly not willing to play ball and actually try and R. Like you said, put yourself in her shoes. She’s claiming it wasn’t a physical affair, that you know everything and it’s over. She wants to reconcile. What’s stopping her exactly? What does she have to hide?

Why is she dragging her feet? Why is she dodging questions? Why isn’t she neck deep in a timeline and sorting her own Poly? Gotta be a reason.

Can you wait this out? Is she tolerable at home and as a co-parent? Would she respect in house separation? How long are you willing to wait before inaction forces your hand? She’s gonna run out of Im sorry cards soon enough.

Actually It’s laughable that one of the most significant things she’s done towards reconciling is sourcing multiple “I’m sorry” cards. The letters are one thing (some BS on here are desperate for those sorts of letters acknowledging their pain) but far from enough and tainted by her inaction. Words become meaningless in the face of her inaction over this.

posts: 34   ·   registered: Mar. 4th, 2021   ·   location: Uk
id 8679828
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Stevesn ( member #58312) posted at 3:33 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Give her a date to review the timeline with you. Eg “we will meet Sunday night at 7 and review it.

When the time comes ask her to read it to you before handing it over.

Honestly you’re going to have to get to the real questions like we discussed here on page 7. And let her know that any of them will be polygraphed if she wants you to stick around and try to rebuild.

I would be very clear, “if you told me the truth about what occurred between you and him, then I could actually work to heal over the next few years. But your denials and lies leave me knowing I could never trust you again. “

And as for a polygraph I’d say “a truly remorseful cheating wife would gladly do anything to prove to me she is all in to rebuild. Your response on the poly show me you are not that person”

Sorry again for what you are going through.

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

posts: 3203   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2017
id 8679831
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Freeme ( member #31946) posted at 3:46 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Let me ask you if my the way I'm thinking about this is reasonable. If I put myself in her shoes and make the assumption that she really is done with the affair, sorry about it, and wants to heal our relationship. I feel like I would already be balls deep in writing a timeline out. I feel like I would be super responsive and complete in answering any questions.

Yes you are correct. She's doing what she's always done. She's trying to rugsweep the situation but offering you crumbs (cards and words). She thinks she's either going to be able to wait this out or "win you over" by saying the right combination of words to "prove" she loves you and won't do it again so you can move forward without a timeline,poly.../

I'd probably put a note on my pillow that says no more cards. The next thing I want to read from you is your timeline. Then I would start a pile of unread cards on my night stand if she continues.

Really if she put the time and effort into the time line that she is putting into her "applogy letter, cards, and other things you'd have it by now.

I remember how you didn't want to give her a "to do list" because you shouldn't have to spell it out for her... it looks like you gave her a few items that would help and she's resisting them and doing her own thing.

How are you reacting to her cards? Are you thanking her? or being encouraging? You should be doing a hard 180 until you see some progress. She's acting like this is no big deal.

Good luck

posts: 2807   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2011   ·   location: Washington DC
id 8679836
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 4:07 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Can you wait this out? Is she tolerable at home and as a co-parent? Would she respect in house separation? Its tolerable and manageable. There's not a lot of fighting. She's been sleeping in another room.

As far as the cards are concerned. I just didn't acknowledge receiving them at all. Didn't say a word about them until the last one when she wrote I really (repeated to word "really" 20 times) want another chance. That pissed me off, which is when I let her know we aren't at a point where I can can even consider giving her another chance because I don't know the complete truth. I did snoop on her computer an hour or so again and saw what appeared to be the beginning of a timeline. I didn't read it because I knew if I did I wouldn't be able to resist asking questions about it. She's claiming she is almost done reading Shirley Glass.

Right now it's feeling to much like the last time for me. We have a big annual family camping trip in a week. It's just our nuclear family. I can't think of a good way to exclude her. We can play nice though for a week of camping. I think the kids would be disappointed if she was excluded. After the trip is when I'll start filling out paperwork and consider talking to the kids. Once I tell them anything about it I am kind of locked in.

posts: 83   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8679841
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Wanttobebetter ( member #72484) posted at 4:17 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

OP - It seems she is also trying to wait you out and hoping your anger will fade. The cards and the 'appearance' of a timeline looks to be a stalling tactic to throw you off balance.

We have a big annual family camping trip in a week. It's just our nuclear family. I can't think of a good way to exclude her. We can play nice though for a week of camping. I think the kids would be disappointed if she was excluded.

she is counting on the above to get you to change your mind.

posts: 163   ·   registered: Jan. 6th, 2020
id 8679848
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Freeme ( member #31946) posted at 5:08 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Your taking the right approach with the cards. She seems to think being cutesy is her way to sweep this under the rug but it just makes it look like she's not taking any of this seriously.

We have a big annual family camping trip in a week.

You may be able to hide everything and continue on for the kids but it will also be sending her the message that this can drag on and that you care enough to pretend it's ok.

I'd put the ball in her court. That you know the kids would like her to go on the camping trip but that you are going to have a hard time faking happy family if you haven't even gotten the timeline yet. That if she want's to go for the kids she should have the timeline in your hand by then. If not it might be better for her to stay home and work on it.

The thing is that the WS get the idea that as long as the BS is willing to play "happy family" things are alright. If you aren't going to upset the kids by not having her on the camping trip would you really divorce her a week later? That will hurt the kids far worse. Kind of sending mixed messages.

If you are serious about getting divorced if she doesn't put in some work you should try to normalize the seperation now. Give her a taste of what it's like not doing everything together. That would send a much stronger more clear message than serving her after a family vacation.

I think if she were to explain your marriage situation to everyone she would say you are over reacting to her maintaining contact with an old friend. That it wasn't a big deal that they never even saw each other. In her mind a card an applogy and the promise to stop should be enough.

I don't think she get's that the amount of lies, the amount of times she was caught, the exstreem measure she went to to maintain the relationship, the gaslighting, the fights, the continued lies... Have made it impossible for you (anyone really) to believe it was just an emotional affair. That you've gone through this same song and dance so many times that it's impossible to take anything she says seriously.

Your both dealing with two versions of the same story but hers hasn't changed from the first, second, and third time she has done this same thing.

[This message edited by Freeme at 7:58 AM, August 1st (Sunday)]

posts: 2807   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2011   ·   location: Washington DC
id 8679869
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guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 5:10 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

You're handling the situation very well. She avoids doing the necessary things, and the way you analyze her actions/inactions is perfectly logical.

She hopes that things will change by waiting and stalling. She is obviously aware of that the facts will be deal breaker for you.

Let her know that her non-answers are actually answers. She can wait as long as she wants, but you don't have to wait. You can start the divorce proceedings.

posts: 519   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8679870
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BlueRaspberry ( member #76065) posted at 5:27 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

I'd put the ball in her court. That you know the kids would like her to go on the camping trip but that you are going to have a hard time faking happy family if you haven't even gotten the timeline yet. That if she want's to go for the kids she should have the timeline in your hand by then. If not it might be better for her to stay home and work on it.

This ^^^^^^

posts: 233   ·   registered: Dec. 29th, 2020
id 8679874
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Justsomeguy ( member #65583) posted at 5:39 PM on Friday, July 30th, 2021

Sorry OP, but unless your WW has her Danascus moment, you are headed to D, unless you are willing to rugsweep. From your posts, it seems your WW is missing some key character stuff that makes a well rounded adult, like empathy, personal responsibility, compassion...etc. It's funny just how common it is for waywards to be missing these key pieces.

Again, I fall in the cheating-is-always-a-dealbreaker camp, and if there is to be a new relationship again, it is up to the cheater to move heavan and earth to rebuild it. Anything else is substandard. Hell, if you removed all of the entanglements, would you even bother to date someone who put so little into a relationship? Could you imagine the dating profile? Known cheater, liar, who lacks empathy, compassion and basic human decency, but is great at making cards...yup, that's the gal I want!

Step back, and try to consider what type of life you want. What dou you want if to look like in ten or twenty years? And can you reasonable see your WW fitting into that without you compromising? Don't project a version of her that you hope might happen, but the real her, the one you have white knuckled it with. If not, then file now, not to save your M, but to save yourself. It may be that she pulls her head out of her ass and grows, but you win either way. Either way, you get out of infidelity.

Me:53STBXWW:51DD#1: false confession of EA Dec. 2016. False R for a year.DD#2: confessed to year long PA Dec. 2 2017 (was about to be outed)Called it off.Denied having an affair in court papers.

posts: 1118   ·   registered: Jul. 25th, 2018   ·   location: Canada
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