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SnowToArmPits ( member #50943) posted at 5:16 AM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

Everyone this forum has your back to proceed with caution.

I might get piled on here, but in my case I got a couple of "I'm sorry" cards as well and things did improve afterwords. Coincided with an attitude change from my wife.

posts: 358   ·   registered: Dec. 25th, 2015   ·   location: Canada
id 8678430
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RocketRaccoon ( member #54620) posted at 6:07 AM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

Hi L,

Thanks for answering my question on your WS's accommodation the night of the race.

So far, you seem to be on the right track to regain your self. Started a bit wobbly, but it looks like you have managed to find your balance.

I will not be checking in with you or asking about progress on anything listed. I am no longer pursuing you. You need to decide what is best for your own self care and move in that direction.

In my eyes, this is a powerful state of mind that you are in. It indicates that you have regained focus on what you need, and you are not in a pick-me mindset.

You can let your WS know that she is free to pursue Flash, as that is what she seems to want. Let her go find happiness with him.

The BS should never ever chase the WS. Never. When the BS chases the WS, this sways the already imbalanced relationship scales further into the WS side, and lets the WS call the shots. By taking control back of your life, you will redress that power imbalance.

On the issue of the polygraph, my suggestion is that you do not raise it again. This is not that because you are heading to D, and do not need it anymore, it is more of an indication on the effort your WS wants to put in to repair the M.

If she were truly remorseful and would 'do anything' , she would offer to take it herself. Ideally, she would pay for it, but you choose the polygrapher, time, and date.

So, all in all, it looks like you are starting on your journey out of Infidelity.

ETA: The card was a weak-assed (pun intended) attempt. Such little effort put into it. Am sure if she had to apologise to Flash, it would probably have been a bigger event.

Her not sleeping in the Master Bedroom is a small token (she still have a bed she can sleep on, and roof over her head, still has her family around her, so no hardship), so would not worth any consideration as an effort.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 12:10 AM, July 26th (Monday)]

You cannot cure stupid

posts: 902   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2016   ·   location: South East Asia
id 8678436
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Jambomo ( member #74853) posted at 10:09 AM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

What stands out to me is how much of a liar that your wife is. All WSs' are, but your wife has lied to everyone about everything, her family & friends, her therapist, OBS.

Now that you know that how can you go about trusting her again? or trusting that she'll be honest? I think that it is a red flag to me because if she's never honest with these people, she'll never properly change or learn what a safe partner is - a therapist or counsellor can only help those who are honest about their situation and want that help. Does this sound like your WW?

I would also consider how this might look in the longer-term. Once the shock wears off and she feels secure and bored again a few years down the line (because we all get a bit bored in relationships sometime!).

Eveyone reads things differently and has their own opinions on things but I have to disagree with Camomile Tea's post a few pages back, I honestly can't see where your wife would be a good candidate for R. I think she sounds like she is in self-preservation mode and has blown her second chance already.

If you have pretty much decided to divorce, then I would not write or request things from her anymore as this will simply think you are giving her a chance, and sends a bit of a mixed message (not unless you need to know for your own recovery). I would personally do the 180, file and move on as soon as you can.

posts: 240   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020   ·   location: Scotland
id 8678443
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Stevesn ( member #58312) posted at 12:25 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

Legatus

Of course you may not need these questions or truly anything you have asked your WW for if you are full steam headed for divorce. But I am going to provide them anyway.

I still haven’t heard from you if she responded to your letter to her in any way and if she agreed to do the things you put in it. If she is working on a timeline you may want to use these as follow up questions if she likely leaves them out of what she writes up.

Anyway, if you do end up sending her this list of questions remind her that honestly is paramount and that if your relationship will have any chance of being rebuilt, she will have to answer at least some of them via a polygraph so lying here is not recommended.

(Sorry for the directness of these questions)

1) have you ever kissed Barry on the mouth?

2) have you ever romantically embraced Barry

3) has Barry ever touched your breasts

4) has Barry ever seen your breasts naked

5) has Barry ever seen your naked vagina

6) has Barry ever fondled your vagina thru your clothes

7) has Barry ever touched your naked vagina?

8) have you ever seen Barry’s naked penis

9) have you ever touched Barry’s penis thru his clothes

10) have you ever touched Barry’s naked penis?

11) has Barry’s penis ever been inside your mouth?

12) has Barry’s penis ever been inside your vagina

13) has Barry’s penis ever penetrated you anally

14) has Barry’s mouth ever contacted your vagina

15) has Barry’s fingers ever penetrated any part of you

16) did you ever say “I love you” to Barry

Again, sorry for the bluntness of these questions. It is important to make these questions as clinical as possible. It takes the romance out of the actions.

Again, if you are full steam ahead with Divorce, it’s your call on whether or not you ask questions like these. But you may decide you need to know this information to get past it. To work thru the pain. As you wrote in your letter she hasn’t earned the right to know your intentions one way or the other.

Laying down the poly requirement is also important whether she agrees take one or not. She’s made claim that she is willing to do anything. This is part of that “anything”. This is how she works to prove herself trustworthy and safe. A poly is one small step in that direction.

Think about it and also let us know what she is saying about wha you have already written to her.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:53 AM, July 26th (Monday)]

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

posts: 3199   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2017
id 8678456
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 2:34 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

Jambomo She has lied a lot to a lot of people. What’s amazed me and scared me is her inability to see the lie in some cases. It’s not just that she doesn’t want to fess up to the lie, it’s as if she’s believed her own lies and that’s how she remembers her history. It’s really strange.

What you said about her becoming complacent after a few years sways me against R, because I’ve seen this happen. When we had our false R one of the agreements she made was to have better boundaries with male coworkers and other males moving forward. It wasn’t vague, we spoke about specific boundaries. One part of the agreement I wanted and she agreed to was no new male friends. About a year later she was testing the limits of that agreement and made a statement saying she might have new male friends eventually. Well, then I might divorce you eventually. That’s actually what I said. I goes to show her lack of understanding of my experience or her indifference to it.

Stevesn I had been thinking about a similar list. I like your list because they are simple and direct close ended questions. The more complicated a question is the more a liar will try to find the cracks to lie based on a technicality. She’s done a lot of lying she claims isn’t lying based on some technicality or her playing semantics.

This question is the kind she loves “ have you ever romantically embraced Barry”. The meaning of “romantically embraces” can be subjective. I think we generally know what it means, but for her, she would rationalize lying by coming up with a definition of her own that would enable her to say no.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8678480
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Stevesn ( member #58312) posted at 2:52 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

Ok. So we’ll leAve that one out for now. Or i can try to reword it.

What was her response to your letter, if any?

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

posts: 3199   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2017
id 8678482
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faithfulman ( member #66002) posted at 3:15 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

The more complicated a question is the more a liar will try to find the cracks to lie based on a technicality. She’s done a lot of lying she claims isn’t lying based on some technicality or her playing semantics.

This question is the kind she loves “ have you ever romantically embraced Barry”. The meaning of “romantically embraces” can be subjective. I think we generally know what it means, but for her, she would rationalize lying by coming up with a definition of her own that would enable her to say no.

Exactly. If there is any "interpretation" then she will go weasel-mode - Answer: "No" - in her mind only she says: "We embraced, but it wasn't romantic."

I think the list has to be quite a bit more extensive than that, covering every possible permutation you can think of. Because technicalities. It will be exhausting if you want to put in that kind of effort.

posts: 874   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2018
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 3:30 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

Sorry, I meant to answer the question about her response to the letter. She’s acknowledged receiving it and has said she is working on the timeline. Then I kind of interrupted and said her word mean nothing... I’’m looking at your actions. So I kind of killed that conversation. Which is fine. I want a timeline in hand, not a promise of one. She made another “I’ll. Do whatever it takes” promise.

She sees her IC today. She invited me to attend so I could hear her tell him the whole story opposed to the redacted story he knows. I declined. It felt like being the cop again. It’ll be interesting if she has anything to say after the session. Historically, her post counseling attitude was her feeling like more the victim and 1001 reasons why she doesn’t have any work to do. Often times I actually “had to do things” to make it better.

I don’t feel like this is rocket science. I think we all generally know what to do in these situations to rebuild trust. At least on a basic level. Except for me I guess, because I’m still coming up empty on that one in this instance. I want there to be something, I just can’t think of a single thing.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8678499
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guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 3:31 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

You should make it clear that honesty is your only expectation and that you won't tolerate her making a fool of you with puns like the example Faithfulman gave.

Tell her that she can have fun for a while by doing these things, but that it will not change the outcome for you and that if a truth different than what she said comes out, you will not accept any explanation, not even the slightest chance.

posts: 501   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8678501
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Justsomeguy ( member #65583) posted at 3:48 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

One question that I asked myself just before choosing to pull the plug, was given what i know about my STBXWW's character and history, would i date her if she was a stranger? I mean, if I met her, and after a couple of dates, I knew about her cheating, lying, attempts to humiliate her spouse, lack of basic empathy, yadda, yadda, yadda. You get the point.

There are rare waywards on this site which are truly remorseful and self aware, and these people give us hope that real change can happen, but the reality is that this type of work is long and hard, and not realistic for many people. Just look at the weight loss industry as an example. Losing weight requires a tectonic shift in behaviour, not just a 10 week program. Sure, people can white knuckle it for a bit, but what is the actual success rate long term?

My STBXWW is currently stalling the D process because she is spinning into depression. How do I know this? Because she constantly gas the need to tell me, confusing me with someone who gives a shit. She wants my pity because she had always gotten it before.

Last month, my daughter (18yrs) asked if her mother and I would ever be friends and do family stuff together again. I had to explain that I only allow high quality people in my life now and her mother just didnt measures up. Maybe if she did the work to change, one day it might be different, but I have solid boundaries now in order to heal. She understood, mostly because she has had some experiences with toxic and broken people, who have taken a real toll on her.

In the end, most people cannot change. They might shift things around a bit or alter how their character manifests, but the core remains. Even after his Damascus moment, Paul wrote about the struggle between his new self and core behaviours. It's a fundamental battle we all wage. Hell, I'm a fixer and even though I know that, I cannot change it. I just build in strategies to help me navigate it.

Your WW is who she is. Boil down the reasons you are attached to her and weigh them. Kids, time, feelings you once had, and then compare that to which she has demonstrated herself to be. It can be a chilling thing.

Me:53STBXWW:51DD#1: false confession of EA Dec. 2016. False R for a year.DD#2: confessed to year long PA Dec. 2 2017 (was about to be outed)Called it off.Denied having an affair in court papers.

posts: 1115   ·   registered: Jul. 25th, 2018   ·   location: Canada
id 8678507
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BlueRaspberry ( member #76065) posted at 3:53 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

Legatus,

You state

She sees her IC today.

Is this the IC she has been seeing or a new IC that specializes in infidelity? If it is the old IC she has been lying to for a few years, I wouldn't anticipate any breakthroughs. She would likely be embarrassed to change her story at this time and her inviting you would indicate she plans to continue her lies. More importantly, didn't you request that she get an IC that specializes in infidelity? Seeing her old IC would NOT show the type of action you're demanding.

Also, do you plan to serve her soon OR are you watching how she reacts to determine how to proceed? Serving her divorce papers would certainly make it more real to her and would show you're not screwing around. Tough to tell how she would react - would she come clean or double down on her lies.

posts: 231   ·   registered: Dec. 29th, 2020
id 8678510
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Newlifeisgreat ( member #71308) posted at 5:23 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

If she was served, my bet would be that she doubles down on the lies. It will only be after a few months and realizes thar he is serious that she will throw the Hail Mary and admit that it has been physical.

I don’t think there would even be a parking lot concession outside of the polygraph as she thinks she can beat the polygraph or will simply say that polygraphs are not reliable after she fails it.

Not to rush the process, and there is a process, but I think all of us but the RAAC Folks see that marriage ultmately ending. Sorry.

He can and should never trust her again. How could he?!? So unless he wants to be a relationship cop......

Let’s just say that the obese female vocalist is warming up.

I’m sorry. Good luck, and stay strong!!!!

Betrayed SpouseShe cheated and I filed immediately upon discovering. She never even suspected that I knew until the moment she was served with reason being AdulteryDivorced 9/18Now VERY happy with new life, 0 regrets

posts: 664   ·   registered: Aug. 17th, 2019
id 8678545
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The1stWife ( member #58832) posted at 5:26 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

My theory is they were “smart” enough to figure out how to cheat —- they can be smart enough on their own to figure out how to R.

If they actually really want to R.

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled.

posts: 10686   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8678546
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ChamomileTea ( member #53574) posted at 7:43 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

I like your list because they are simple and direct close ended questions.

I disagree. That list is pornographic and offensive. Worse though, it continues to paint you in the authoritarian Daddy/Jailer mode. Your WW is failing to empathize with you. She needs to learn empathy, and she's NOT going to do that while you're treating her like a teenager you caught sneaking out. She is a full grown woman. She KNOWS what sex is. An EA is about the transference of primary affection and companionship onto another person and outside the marriage. When you set yourself up as some embarrassing caricature of a boss/jailer, you're going directly against what you're needing her to see. You need her to see YOU... not the angry guy with pervy lists.

Now, it's one thing if you're done. If you're done... BE DONE. Preserve your dignity, file, and move on. She already knows why. And I'll be honest, after several years of trying to get through to a spouse who just won't listen to you, that's the kind of frustration and resentment which can kill the love. No one could blame you for being done. But if you're not... please think about what it is EXACTLY that you're trying to accomplish. What are your goals?

She made another “I’ll. Do whatever it takes” promise.

She sees her IC today. She invited me to attend so I could hear her tell him the whole story opposed to the redacted story he knows. I declined.

Clearly, your WW is willing to work with you at this point. You've broken through her hard-headed insistence that she was right and you were wrong. So, you do have something to work with. It depends on what YOU want at this point and what you are trying to achieve.

It felt like being the cop again.

Don't be the cop. I do think that getting this polygraph is important because right now, you don't know WHAT to believe, so there needs to be a baseline. But you don't have to abandon your dignity or become pornographically pedantic to do that. In all other things though, I wouldn't play into her confirmation bias that you're the Daddy/Jailer.

posts: 4569   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016
id 8678585
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TheLostOne2020 ( member #72463) posted at 8:52 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

Justsomeguy

One question that I asked myself just before choosing to pull the plug, was given what i know about my STBXWW's character and history, would i date her if she was a stranger? I mean, if I met her, and after a couple of dates, I knew about her cheating, lying, attempts to humiliate her spouse, lack of basic empathy, yadda, yadda, yadda. You get the point.

That's a very interesting question. Being objective about it now I have to say I wouldn't. I say that because I went out on a date with a woman who was very hot, very successful, easy to get along with, etc, yet her only flaw (eh, that I could tell anyway) was that she cheated on her husband and that ended their marriage. She claimed to have done a lot of therapy, realized her errors, etc...But I couldn't get past it.

OP, I think this is a very relevant question for you.

There are rare waywards on this site which are truly remorseful and self aware, and these people give us hope that real change can happen, but the reality is that this type of work is long and hard, and not realistic for many people. Just look at the weight loss industry as an example. Losing weight requires a tectonic shift in behaviour, not just a 10 week program. Sure, people can white knuckle it for a bit, but what is the actual success rate long term?

Shoot, there's an industry related to reconciliation! It preys on the betrayed's hopes.

My STBXWW is currently stalling the D process because she is spinning into depression. How do I know this? Because she constantly gas the need to tell me, confusing me with someone who gives a shit. She wants my pity because she had always gotten it before.

Hm...This is/was familiar to me too. My ex stalled the D process as well.

[This message edited by TheLostOne2020 at 2:53 PM, July 26th (Monday)]

D-Day 1: New Year's Day 2020
D-Day 2: Jan 21 2020
There was no D-Day 3.

6/12/2020: Moved out.

3/02/2021: Officially divorced.

I'm 42 and just starting to have the answers to the universe...

posts: 892   ·   registered: Jan. 3rd, 2020   ·   location: NoVa
id 8678609
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faithfulman ( member #66002) posted at 9:59 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

I find cheating to be pornographic and offensive.

If cheating spouses don't want to answer uncomfortable questions that might hurt their delicate feelings, the should have kept their pee-pees and their other spouse-only areas to themselves.

***

Here is the thing: The reason you even have to think about asking these pornographic and offensive questions is because A) Your wife was cheating with another man, and B) She is insulting your intelligence by STILL claiming this was nothing more than a "friendship".

***

Here is the other thing: You ask what you feel you need to know, not what someone who is militant about working from the truth like me, or Stevensn who is more in the middle, or someone who wants to make a project out of redeeming your wife and "saving your marriage" even though she has done nothing but disrespect you.

Ask what you want. We're just making suggestions.

This is about you, and what you need to be able to look yourself in the mirror, to live a happy and full life going forward.

Not anyone else. Please don't forget that.

posts: 874   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2018
id 8678627
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 10:08 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

I feel like the questions would only be pervy if I was sexually gratified to ask them or hear the answers. I don’t anticipate that being the case. Also, the point of the direct specific questions is to remove her wiggle room. I’m not asking any of these questions any time soon.

I asked her how the IC went. She said she was still processing the visit.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8678630
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CuriousObserver ( member #78743) posted at 10:17 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

I asked her how the IC went. She said she was still processing the visit.

What have you been doing, Mr. Churchill?

"I've been practicing my impromptu remarks".

[This message edited by CuriousObserver at 4:18 PM, July 26th (Monday)]

Listen to their words but believe their actions.
The power of a lie is that it is believed to be truth.

posts: 127   ·   registered: May. 3rd, 2021   ·   location: USA
id 8678634
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guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 10:19 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

You made a good point. These questions are not intended for sexual satisfaction.

The thing that makes me feel weird is, is she really someone who would be so ignorant of what's expected of her? I mean, if these questions were asked clearly but more normally, not in a language that a 3-year-old would understand, is she really someone who would distort it? If so, there should be no need to even ask these questions.

posts: 501   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8678635
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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 10:25 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

I think that it's important to have productive conflicts. Often that does mean giving time to process and not be emotionally heightened when taking these things on. Just try not to let her, or yourself, use that as an excuse to avoid the conflicts entirely.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 1386   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8678639
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