Newest Member: HeartbrokenWife76

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ChamomileTea ( member #53574) posted at 10:30 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

I feel like the questions would only be pervy if I was sexually gratified to ask them or hear the answers. I don’t anticipate that being the case. Also, the point of the direct specific questions is to remove her wiggle room. I’m not asking any of these questions any time soon.

Again, I think you'd do well to think about what your goals are. Not that you have to make a decision right this minute, but if you're leaving R on the table, why offend? I'm telling you as a woman, I found those questions needlessly pornographic and provocative. We don't know that your WW is guilty of anything other than an emotionally inappropriate relationship as of yet. So, why not leave room for the possibility of it? Why provoke? And if I'm right and you guys are having an authority figure problem, why would you play directly into her confirmation bias? If you've got a Daddy/Jailer problem, THAT is where the empathy has gone. And I am NOT blame-shifting her poor choices onto you, that's not my point. My point is that when a WS is operating under their own fantasy-based mindset, we don't FEED IT. You aren't her dad or her warden, you are her primary person, her husband, her lover, her help-meet in life, and she is not seeing YOU.

Like I said earlier, it's okay to be fed up and to want out at this point. It's been a helluva time for you these past couple of years trying to get through to her. But now you HAVE gotten through to her. What do you plan to do with that?

posts: 4569   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016
id 8678641
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 11:09 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

ChamomileTea - your point is well taken. It’s too early for me to determine if she has just increased her minimal effort to a new level or of she plans to go all out and be all in. Really, if I need to be that specific, there’s still game playing and she’s not all in. I’m going to keep moving away from her and see while doing that I’ll take notice of what she does. I don’t want to be the daddy boss, for the reasons you mention, and because I’m sick of playing that role.

[This message edited by Legatus at 7:47 PM, July 26th (Monday)]

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8678661
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Thumos ( member #69668) posted at 11:11 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

She is a full grown woman. She KNOWS what sex is.

Then I suppose she could grow up enough to handle a talk about sexual details without pretending to have the vapors or acting like she needed to go to the fainting couch because a simple series of questions about her shitty behavior was deemed "pornographic."

Maybe the problem is her actual behavior is so pornographic and offensive it's squirmy to talk about?

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:14 PM, July 26th (Monday)]

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH (me): 50, WW: 49 Married: Feb. 1996 DDAY1: 12.20.16 DDAY2:

posts: 4301   ·   registered: Feb. 5th, 2019   ·   location: UNITED STATES
id 8678662
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faithfulman ( member #66002) posted at 11:35 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

I'm telling you as a woman, I found those questions needlessly pornographic and provocative.

A cheating man would also object to these questions!!

But this is not about "men" or "women". It's about cheaters and liars.

We don't know that your WW is guilty of anything other than an emotionally inappropriate relationship as of yet.

Legatus doesn't know because his cheating wife has gone to great lengths to hide her behavior, including setting up secret one on one overnights with her sleazebag cheating boyfriend.

But go ahead and place your money on that possibility if you seriously want to advocate for that point of view. Maybe this will be the .0001% chance finally landing.

So, why not leave room for the possibility of it?

Because that's absurd.

By the way, Legatus already did that, and she abused him and his trust!

And if I'm right and you guys are having an authority figure problem, why would you play directly into her confirmation bias? If you've got a Daddy/Jailer problem,

Because that's completely off-base and shifts blame onto the victim.

There is no "Daddy/Jailer problem" in Legatus' marriage, there is a "cheating problem".

If anything, Legatus has been far too permissive and understanding over these years - the very opposite of a "Daddy/Jailer problem".

If that twisted meme exists, it is only in the warped view of his wife.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 5:40 PM, July 26th (Monday)]

posts: 874   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2018
id 8678671
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GoldenR ( member #54778) posted at 11:45 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

We don't know that your WW is guilty of anything other than an emotionally inappropriate relationship as of yet.

Yeah...bc sneaking around to spend the night with a boyfriend, chances are reeeeaaaaalllllyyyyy low that sex happened.

posts: 2646   ·   registered: Aug. 22nd, 2016   ·   location: South Texas
id 8678674
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ChamomileTea ( member #53574) posted at 11:46 PM on Monday, July 26th, 2021

Really, if I need to be that specific, there’s still game playing and she’s not all in.

Exactly. Your better bet, if you're going to speak to her at all, is to speak as yourself. If you're talking down to her, you're feeding the wayward mindset which has allowed her to view you as an authoritarian and then to disregard your feelings as such. If I'm right, this is where the loss of empathy comes from. Believe me. I know it sucks, but my fWH and I have recovered from it. It IS possible for a WS to bounce back from that, and quicker than you think once they realize that everything they thought they knew about us is wrong.

My fWH had painted that big 'ol bullseye on my forehead and NOTHING that I could say or do could get through to him. It wasn't until the chips were down, and I was really going to leave him that he was shocked enough to reexamine his bias. It's EASY for people to become contemptuous of their partner when they're unhappy. We become parentified. They're so sure that we would never leave them, that our love is unconditional, that they stop empathizing with us and instead, blame us for all the little things in their lives which have left them unfulfilled or dissatisfied. But it's this very sense of assurance that we'll never leave which, when challenged by our REAL intent to divorce, shocks them into questioning their preconceptions and judgments.

Your WW might be ready to work with you for real this time, and I think it's okay if you want to step back and observe a little bit and make sure you've got an accurate assessment. But whatever interactions you do have should be authentic so she can see the real you. And of course, WS's don't just magically pull their heads out of their asses and become perfect citizens. R is a process that's fraught with missteps and error. And you do NOT have to commit yourself to R today. Right now, you're still assessing your situation and keeping your options open. Making big decisions is for later when you're more clear on the facts and have had some time to think about what YOU want.

posts: 4569   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016
id 8678675
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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 1:03 AM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

We don't know that your WW is guilty of anything other than an emotionally inappropriate relationship as of yet.

They were probably just playing checkers and watching tv.

posts: 6685   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
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Buffer ( member #71664) posted at 2:22 AM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

A lot of shenanigans going on. Too much shit in the background.

Give her the D papers and the get her out of unicorn fart land.

One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 8:23 PM, July 26th (Monday)]

Buffer

posts: 1199   ·   registered: Sep. 24th, 2019   ·   location: Australia
id 8678725
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Thumos ( member #69668) posted at 4:29 AM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

Legatus you get to decide what you want to know and anonymous posters on the internet don't get to set arbitrary guardrails for what you are allowed to know based on vague statements about pornography.

For the record, adultery is quite literally where the root word for pornography came from. Adultery is the very definition of “pornographic.” The New Testament koine Greek word “porneia” had a meaning that included sexual behavior such as prostitution, extramarital sexual intercourse or adultery, paedophilia, promiscuity, and so on.

Decide what you need. If you wife can't or won't provide then she's a bad bet for your life partner. It's pretty simple while it's also pretty tragic and pretty damn difficult. Hang in there, brother.

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH (me): 50, WW: 49 Married: Feb. 1996 DDAY1: 12.20.16 DDAY2:

posts: 4301   ·   registered: Feb. 5th, 2019   ·   location: UNITED STATES
id 8678758
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RocketRaccoon ( member #54620) posted at 4:44 AM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

She made another “I’ll. Do whatever it takes” promise.

One of the more common responses by the WS to the BS.

It is in the same league as:

- 'We are just friends.'

- 'We only kissed once.'

- 'It was only sex.'

- 'It won't happen again.'

- 'I was just about to break it off.'

Good to know that you are not bothering with the words, but looking for the actions.

You cannot cure stupid

posts: 902   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2016   ·   location: South East Asia
id 8678765
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TheLostOne2020 ( member #72463) posted at 1:26 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

I have to agree with RocketRaccoon. Actions are what matter. Words can be syrupy sweet and meaningless, as can tears. What matters is what she does.

D-Day 1: New Year's Day 2020
D-Day 2: Jan 21 2020
There was no D-Day 3.

6/12/2020: Moved out.

3/02/2021: Officially divorced.

I'm 42 and just starting to have the answers to the universe...

posts: 892   ·   registered: Jan. 3rd, 2020   ·   location: NoVa
id 8678811
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 1:57 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

I read through the resource library and couldn't find the answer to this question.

The timeline. I'm curious about the propose. Don't get me wrong, I want one and think it's important. I've been thinking it is mostly for me so I know the chain of events and have something to refer to when I'm attempting to understand what happened. Is it supposed to serve a purpose for the WW though? Is there a part of having them write it that has to do with them facing their shame, realizing the pain they've caused? I'm just trying to forma comprehensive understanding of it's purpose. If I missed the article in the resources that explains all this please share a link if you're willing.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8678815
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asc1226 ( member #75363) posted at 2:07 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

The timeline has several functions. You should know exactly what it is you’re dealing with, what you’re being asked to reconcile with or forgive. It gets things down in black and white which makes it harder to backtrack and change the story. And yes, the act of putting it down on paper forces the WS to face what they have done to their BS, their marriage and their family. Some BS’s have their waywards read it out to them to drive this home.

I make edits, words is hard

posts: 376   ·   registered: Sep. 7th, 2020
id 8678817
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TheLostOne2020 ( member #72463) posted at 2:12 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

Legatus

The timeline. I'm curious about the propose. Don't get me wrong, I want one and think it's important. I've been thinking it is mostly for me so I know the chain of events and have something to refer to when I'm attempting to understand what happened. Is it supposed to serve a purpose for the WW though? Is there a part of having them write it that has to do with them facing their shame, realizing the pain they've caused? I'm just trying to forma comprehensive understanding of it's purpose. If I missed the article in the resources that explains all this please share a link if you're willing.

I never got one from my ex, I'll put that up front. I think your case is a bit different since you have her journal. I'm not sure if that mitigates the need for a timeline or not. I suspect that part of them writing out a timeline is to take account of what they've done - the sheer magnitude of it. It is probably easier for her to casually document her daily activities (cheating included) in a journal than to document all her transgressions in a clinical fashion. So I think that's one element of it - it makes her take account of what she's done.

For me the timeline would have revealed everything she'd done and when she did it. Then I could process it and theoretically determine whether or not she'd gone too far or not. Without the timeline I would be subject to trickle-truth. I wouldn't know whether or not there was something else to uncover; granted she could always lie about the timeline, but if she did, I would have it written in ink and could call her on it.

It's a baseline account of all that she'd done. It's the start of the process of coming to terms with the actions.

D-Day 1: New Year's Day 2020
D-Day 2: Jan 21 2020
There was no D-Day 3.

6/12/2020: Moved out.

3/02/2021: Officially divorced.

I'm 42 and just starting to have the answers to the universe...

posts: 892   ·   registered: Jan. 3rd, 2020   ·   location: NoVa
id 8678819
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 2:21 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

TheLostOne2020 - I don't have her journal, if one even exists, I think you have me mixed up with another post. A journal I never was supposed to see would be great though. Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8678824
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squid ( member #57624) posted at 2:25 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

Is it supposed to serve a purpose for the WW though? Is there a part of having them write it that has to do with them facing their shame, realizing the pain they've caused?

For the WW, the timeline is a way to remove the sheen of fantasy for her and shine a light on it as seen by everybody else - an insidious, calculated, and manipulative deception.

It also serves for you to see what you are trying to forgive and reconcile with.

BH
D-Day 2.19.17
Divorced 12.10.18

This isn’t what any of us signed up for. But it is the hand that we have been dealt. Thus, we must play it.

posts: 2582   ·   registered: Feb. 26th, 2017   ·   location: Central Florida
id 8678826
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Thumos ( member #69668) posted at 2:32 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

Three purposes to a written timeline (and I recommend a wayward spouse writes it down with a pen and paper in their own hand):

1. It makes the adultery visceral and ugly for the wayward. Doing this in their own hand will probably release emotions and trigger the conscience in a way that typing will not. They must look at it all in “black and white” on paper.

2. It commits the wayward to a version in writing. They can no longer fudge facts or slightly change stories told verbally. This written version can also be probed and tested with further questions by the betrayed. And it can be tested against a polygraph for veracity. Knowing all of this many waywards are more likely to disclose more of the truth.

3. It gives the betrayed spouse actionable information about what has been a vacuum in their lives. What was a black box is now known.

Sometimes it is recommended that a wayward write down an “R” version and an “X” version with more explicit details. The betrayed gets to decide what they want to know and what version they want to read.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:35 AM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH (me): 50, WW: 49 Married: Feb. 1996 DDAY1: 12.20.16 DDAY2:

posts: 4301   ·   registered: Feb. 5th, 2019   ·   location: UNITED STATES
id 8678829
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 2:34 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

I'm really latching onto the concept of the timeline's purpose being so I know what I'm being asked to forgive. Even with forgiveness there is still a point where I can see myself forgiving, but still moving forward with D. Then, sometimes there is no forgiveness.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8678831
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Thumos ( member #69668) posted at 2:37 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

You cannot forgive what you don't know.

Also I would caution you not to conflate forgiveness with reconciliation. You can forgive and divorce. You can forgive and reconcile. Forgiveness is for you and it is independent of D or R.

"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."

BH (me): 50, WW: 49 Married: Feb. 1996 DDAY1: 12.20.16 DDAY2:

posts: 4301   ·   registered: Feb. 5th, 2019   ·   location: UNITED STATES
id 8678834
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Freeme ( member #31946) posted at 3:59 PM on Tuesday, July 27th, 2021

... it also challenges the WS to think about each of their lies, each of their decisions. So they don't write the whole affair off as one mistake. It was many, many, many bad choices.

..and for those that use a poly it helps with the questioning. "Did the timeline include everything? Is there anything you left out of the timeline? Was the timeline truthful?" type of question.

Its written proof that you can go back to later if their story changes or you find new information.

it's also an action item. Something they can do to prove how serious they are about telling the truth and trying to reconcile. Not just talk, actually find the time to create the timeline on their own.

posts: 2807   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2011   ·   location: Washington DC
id 8678846
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