Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 4:56 AM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
She walked in teary eyed and begging for a chance. I reiterated I haven’t made a decision even though I have. I sent it about 2 hours before she had an appointment with her IC. I’m not an asshole. I wanted to make sure she had a chance to unpack it in counseling. She’s showing a lot of remorse and is trying really hard right now. It may be sincere, but all I see is manipulation. That may or may not be what it is. I’m just not willing to take the chance. She used those up already, so it would be sad for her if things are different now. I’m just done listening.
Stevesn ( member #58312) posted at 5:09 AM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
Nice job. You did well. A little long but from the heart.
I know you are taking it slow. But it may be time to ask her the 10 physical questions and let her know you expect them to be verified by a poly.
You don’t have to guarantee anything based on the answers but guarantee not answering or continue to lie will me trust will NEVER be restored. If she truly wants the chance she needs to be strong enough to give you the truth on the physical nature of the relationship.
fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.
Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 5:21 AM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
Stevesn - I lacked the time to make it shorter. The polygraph is not really needed. I know what I need to. At least enough for me to make up my mind. I feel a little sad for her. She’s panicking, and not in just a way a person does when they know they got caught. I think she’s reached a point where she’s realized it’s all falling apart. There’s something in her past that made her this way. I think she might be a victim to it as much as I’m a victim of her. I need to move on though.
66charger ( member #69471) posted at 5:26 AM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
I don’t care about doing that. I don’t think it’s going to happen, and if it does, I don’t see myself trusting it. I kind of just don’t care about her either way. I see her as a person who has used me and lied to me. [italic]I don’t feel [/italic]like I want to fight for her. I’ll file when I feel like it. In the meantime she can spin her wheels or do whatever she wants
The answers may be in this forum and they may be written by you.
This reads like "done" to me.
[This message edited by 66charger at 11:36 PM, August 2nd (Monday)]
beb252 ( member #78948) posted at 5:40 AM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
It seems you've put in all your emotions in one single letter. That's a lot of emotions and I can see mixture of everything. Despite what she did to you for those 41% of your relationship, you still cared too much for her.
Well, it seems you made up your mind and whatever your decision is, that is up to you. For sure, there's little or nothing she can do to affect that now.
All the best!
BlueRaspberry ( member #76065) posted at 5:43 AM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
You know what you need to do. I understand you probably need a breather now that you realize what you want and need and what that will take. So, take some time to come to terms with this new reality and your next steps. Once you're ready, act decisively with a plan. Just be wary that your wife is losing control and may act unpredictably as she comes to understand that her marriage and control over you is over. Protect yourself with a VAR and legal advice. You're doing fine.
Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 6:33 AM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
It’s funny, because early on I was sincerely worried I was being a controlling husband. I wasn’t
beb252 ( member #78948) posted at 6:55 AM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
That's the sad part. She made you think, and she insisted on it, that you were controlling all those... years? Or days... There's a lot of things that they did and they were able to hide all those things between the two of them.
The physicality of the affair may have already started even before you moved to another state. The affair didn't end at all, they just found ways to do it discreetly until they got caught... again.. after doing all those things discreetly. It was an affair that was supposed to continue in parallel with your marriage or until the two of them got tired of their primary partners and decide to continue their affair as each other's primary partners. That's what their goal is based on their secret communication.
It only stopped because they got caught. I'm pretty sure there's more to it than you can ever imagine. The two of them are good secret keepers for each other.
All the best to you and your new life.
[This message edited by beb252 at 11:10 AM, Tuesday, August 3rd]
MorbidCuriosity ( new member #74928) posted at 1:28 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
You have the statistics.
You have the knowledge.
You understood. Yourself and her. The situation. Everything.
And you still don't know what to do?
What actually is it that compels you to stay?
Finances? Kids? House? Cars? HER?
I really want to know so I don't do what you do and stay in a marriage that more than half of it I was treated like shit. Repeatedly.
grubs ( member #77165) posted at 1:50 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
Very well written letter Legatus. Your pain and being done just leaps off the page. I can understand your WW being frantic at the stark reality of her future due to what she has done, but too little too late. Even the best of us take our spouses for granted at times. WS seem to live in that state.
Another reason I now lean towards D being the default path for BS. Its the only path out of infidelity the BS can walk without the WS assistance. I only wasted 8 months, but I had a WS who really didn't care. I can't imagine the scars she inflicted on you over the last four years.
Just preparing to walk the D path, starts the healing. Knowing what it actually looks like instead of what you fear. The detachment from the person hurting you. It's only a side effect that it also illustrates to the WS what they have taken for granted in the BS. It minimizes the damage the WS does to the BS which allows a higher chance for R. Too often we BS allow them to keep stabbing us which damages us and the relationship beyond repair.
[This message edited by grubs at 7:57 AM, August 3rd (Tuesday)]
thatbpguy ( member #58540) posted at 2:03 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
Legatus, spot on letter to her. Clearly it broke her down. But you were right about her choices. Again and again when pressed to choose, she never chose you. And she never will.
I wish you well.
ME: BH Her: WW DDay 1, R; DDay 2, R; DDay 3, I left; Divorced Remarried to a wonderful woman
"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." C.S. Lewis
As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool repeats his folly...
clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 2:10 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
Based on the length of time she has spent hurting you, I sincerely doubt she is different now. It is just that her house of cards is falling and she might actually experience discomfort. She never cared when you experienced hurt or discomfort. She cares now because SHE might experience it.
I hope you choose what is best for YOU because you cannot trust that she will ever choose that, no matter what she says or does moving forward.
Freeme ( member #31946) posted at 2:24 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
It's interesting to think about your letter. All the dates and information you included. While it wasn't a "complete" timeline with all the dates... it was a decent timeline of what you've gone through and were thinking and feeling about each of her actions.
One of the few things you've asked of her is a timeline of her affair. How long did that take you to write (Rhetorical) how long have you been asking for her timeline? (again Rhetorical).
You wrote that letter because you felt you needed to. Maybe because you wanted to explain your change of feelings, or how serious this is, or maybe as a warning that divorce is on the horizon.
Yes, she wrote you a letter, and several silly cards but none of them had the depth your letter had or answered any questions you had.
Her Question : Give me another chance
Your answer : I can't because I don't trust you
Your question: Give me a timeline of dates and reasons so I can try to understand why, put pieces together, see if it's worth another chance, try to rebuild trust, see some actions from you.
Her Answer: Give me another chance (basically what her letter and cards said)
The letter was good and I feel it was good for you to write and get off of your chest but it still feels like you are doing all the work... spelling things out for her...trying to find the exact wording to get her to "get" her betrayal. Again this isn't a 2by4. It was a good letter and you need to do what's best for you.
[This message edited by Freeme at 8:28 AM, August 3rd (Tuesday)]
guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 3:12 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
In the letter and in your posts I see a man who is truly done. Now if you really think things are at the point of no return, this letter shows that you are done.
I say this because I find some resemblance to myself. I am not someone who verbally demands my expectations in my relationships. Of course, during conversations, i show indirectly what kind of wishes i have, but I don't like to voice them as a request. I expect the other person to do this because it comes from within and with pleasure. On the other hand, I expect her not to do what she knows I don't want, if she does it persistently despite knowing this, I understand that I am not valued and loved. If I have finally come to the point of expressing all my feelings and thoughts, it means that everything is over for me. I do this not as a pick me dance, but as a closure.
So I take your letter in that sense as well.
But then I don't understand when you say you'll wait.
You're not hopeful for R, but you're not taking steps to get a D either. But I understand that you will do it later. Then why this wait? Is it the hope of a R in your heart that you don't want to admit to yourself.
Actually, I'm asking this out of curiosity, not to force you. Because I understand that what you say as waiting is not actually a waiting for something to happen, but to do it soon.
So, after your decision is clear and you don't suffer in limbo, it doesn't matter if you do it 15 days or 1 month later.
I almost forgot to ask.
Is there any content to her beggings? Does she approve or deny the words or content you use regarding their A? Why does she want new chance, not to do again what she did before, or to prove you are wrong?
[This message edited by guvensiz at 9:22 AM, August 3rd (Tuesday)]
KingofNothing ( member #71775) posted at 3:13 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
Your letter, though a bit long, was still straight from the heart. I hope she read it carefully because there are several points she needs to strongly think about. The underlying message (repeated) is "You have had your other chance, really two other chances, what do you bring to the table that makes me think you are deserving of a third chance?" I dislike sounding transactional here, it's not really about that. Yet, at this stage, as you already clearly realize, you are harming yourself contemplating what life would be like having to trust this woman for an unprecedented third time. Relationships are never cut and dried, never simple. Yet, actions are simple. She transgressed through a series of decisions and actions that are simple to state and repeat. "She had a boyfriend" "She got caught, and I gave her another chance" "She betrayed me again, and again" These are easy actions to measure, easy concepts to grasp. The emotions that arose from those actions and decisions are far more nuanced and complex-- you are struggling against your love for her (which will not diminish easily, even after betrayal) versus her disrespect for you. Right now, you are expecting actions FROM her that will balance the emotional blow and return your marriage to equilibrium. That's natural enough. You've said as much-- you want HER to come up with a plan to trust her again. You don't want to call the shots on this. Yet.. yet.. where is her research? Where is the work? Where is her golden inspiration about the right things to do to repair some semblance of a marriage?
I'll tell you what I'm looking at as her inspiration. Driving to Target and buying some cheap "I'm Sorry" cards and just asking for a second chance.
It's not funny. Enough time has transpired and you have been very clear about the level of betrayal and hurt you have endured trying to find a path forward since 2017. You've done the math and you've measured the extent of the wrongness of all this and you clearly-- clearly! communicated those concepts to your wife. Respectfully, sir, what she has done in return is basically responded with: "Tell me what to do, and I'll do it!"
I've mentioned this before.. this is a reprise of what I call "I'll be a good little girl or boy once you tell me what to do" approach of escaping infidelity. You are not her coach, you are not her savior (as hard as that might be to accept). The old adage is true. You can't save people who don't want to put in any effort to save themselves.
With all that said, I don't wish to come off as another know it all who is critical of your wife. I'm not, really. I look at these confrontations and my first reaction is one of sadness. I can recognize this moment so well. The end of the rope, the lack of other options, the monkey branch not there any more. Just the sadness of knowing the world is going to shit, and that she brought it all about herself. In the face of that-- she should, she must, come up with something better than "Please please please please please don't divorce me" and it's clear she can't. That's nothing to gloat over, it just is. I'm sorry, man. I really am.
Rex Nihilo, the King of Nothing
“If you’re going through hell, keep going. Just please stop screaming, it’s not good for morale.”
— Winston Churchill
BS 3 DDays/Attempted R, it failed. In a better place
Aletheia ( member #79172) posted at 3:51 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
wow. That letter made me cry. I think you wrote it as much for yourself, as for her. It’s beautiful in a warped sense. You have gone through much more than I could imagine. I am so sorry. You are a wonderful person. Especially thinking of your wife and sending it when you did. Any woman would be lucky to have you, save for your children, unfortunately you ended up with this one. Please take care of yourself and your children. My heart breaks for you.
Your best must be just as glorious as your betrayal was destructive.
Don’t allow people to “Life is short” you to amend bad relationships. Forgiveness /= reconciliation. Leave them people where they are. Life was short when they did what they did.
Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 4:47 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
I see no reason for him to put himself through a polygraph. He knows what he needs to do. We all know what he needs to do.
I hope you find joy in your life again. I hope you find peace of mind. All that’s been taken away from you and that’s grossly unfair. Like you said 58% of your marriage she’s been in an affair. That’s robbery. It’s theft. It’s theft of peace of mind and happiness of the person she supposed to honor. Good luck on your journey.
To thine own self be true. Shakespeare
Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 5:03 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
guvensiz - the reason for the delay in filing is just to take a rest. I don’t feel like I’m in crisis. I haven’t felt this relaxed and unafraid for a long time. I want to stay in this moment for awhile before starting the stressful process of getting divorced. Earlier in this story when divorce was discussed she had some really unrealistic expectations of how the assets would be divided. She basically thought she would get to stay in the house, continue her lifestyle, and I would leave and go live in a shack somewhere. Her slow realization of her lifestyle changing dramatically scared the crap out of her. Looking back , I think that prompted her to reconcile more so than any emotions she had for me. So, I expect it to be an expensive divorce. One where she fights for things she never would get anyways. My parents spent about $100,000 fighting during their divorce in the late 80’s. That was a crappy period for me to. I’m not super excited to move into that arena and since I feel good right now, I figure a rest is the best thing for me. Yes, I’m afraid of divorce.
I consulted with an attorney a couple years ago. I know him professionally and know he has a lot of experience handling divorces in my county. I’m also reached out to a friend who works for my counties Friend of the Court. Both sources laid out what they would expect my worst case scenario to be, and it wasn’t to to bad.
Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 5:14 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
guvensiz- I started referring to him as her boyfriend a couple days ago. She doesn’t like it. She’s more comfortable with inappropriate friend. It’s more than a little telling in my eyes. She’s in the midst of what appears to be frantic begging, but then I use a word which is counter to her narrative and she gives push back. Kind of shows me the game is still on for her. And to be totally honest with all of you, yes R is something I’ve always wanted and would still love to have it it were real. I see it more as something existing in fantasy though. And as much as I might want it, I don’t see a way to ever really trust it. So I’ve accepted it’s not in the cards.
clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 5:34 PM on Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021
I think you are exactly right. She wants a chance to save her gravy train and safety net, not to change the core of who she is into a safe partner.
File for divorce sooner than later, when you're ready. Do not warn her, just do it on your terms. If any of the remorse is real, she will allow the terms favorable to you. Since we can all see clearly that the remorse is not real, you're right to mentally prepare for a fight.
She keeps demonstrating who she really is to you and I'm glad you can see it for what it is.