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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 11:58 PM on Wednesday, August 18th, 2021

RocketRaccoon - She was always in a group. Has always had a bad case of FOMO. The mentality is like a child. The lying is pretty transparent at this point. Before all this I took what she said at face value. Now that I consider everything a possible lie, it's easy to see them. I asked a few night ago if they spoke on the phone during this recent episode. She said no. Then I asked if they had spoken at all in any way and she disclosed one zoom call. (Edit- this call occurred in February of this year, she has not disclosed any communication with him since May of this year) She's old enough to understand the spirit of the question. This small interaction was telling. If she were really in the mind frame of doing whatever it takes she would have just volunteered that information. Not made me ask it just right.

numb&dumb - Yes, you are absolutely right about her hoping the camping trip would pull on the heart strings. I acted normal during the trip. Focusing on fishing and camping with the kids. I didn't bring up any of our problems. I played nice. My boys ended up getting scared and didn't want to sleep in their tent. So, they slept in the camper which ultimately resulted in my wife and I sleeping in the same bed. The night we got home she was getting ready to sleep in our bed, she looked super surprised when I told her not to. I explained I was playing nice during the trip as to not ruin it for the kids or taint the trip in some way. She totally thought waiting me out and writing cards would do the trick. That kind of pissed me off.

Now when I start to feel like I might want to give her a chance, I ask her a question about the affair. She always gives an answer which is evasive, amnesia ridden, or an obvious lie. Them I'm centered again. I watched her read the entire Shirley Glass book over a couple days. She's pretty good at retaining information. She doesn't seem interested in applying the information. Well, maybe just the low hanging fruit.

Jameson1977 - She claims the timeline will be done any day now. Promises promises. I suspect any timeline I do receive will be full of omissions.

The I'll do anything statements are super annoying since she doesn't back those up with any actions. If that were true I would have a timeline already. If that were true she would have quit her job already. The job was one which he had helped her get at the company where he worked during the first time around. The job offer came months later after the no contact letter and during a time she claimed they were not communicating. She works in a specialized field and the job was a consulting position which would give her a lot of flexibility. I decided to give her a chance to earn my trust back and supported her accepting the job with the understanding she would not speak to him in any way or work on any projects he worked on. I probably should not have supported it in hind site. She knows she broke that deal, if she were all in and willing to do anything she would have resigned already. The job accounts for about 10% of our annual income, so walking away from it wouldn't be a big financial hardship.

The question you asked your wife about the amount of time she spent planning her friends birthday hit home for me. Their actions show who and what their priorities are.

I think she does need an new IC. I know she probably isn't totally honest with him now. She has a history of coming home with rationalizations for her actions and reasons why she shouldn't do things that would help us. I think he takes the easy route, tells her what she wants to hear, enables her, and then cashes the check. Our last MC actually ripped her apart when she my wife said her counselor said she didn't have to talk about anything that made her feel uncomfortable. As part of my not being a police man in this relationship, I'm not making any suggestions about what she should do or telling her she needs a new IC.

So, D is still the plan.

[This message edited by Legatus at 1:01 AM, Thursday, August 19th]

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8684276
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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 12:29 AM on Thursday, August 19th, 2021

After everything, she found time to be in contact with him and not to make a timeline for you. This is literally all you ever need to know.

I am just absolutely floored that she would be in contact (!!!!) and then lie, again, after saying she would do anything. Her anything includes only exactly what she wants to do for her own benefit whether it hurts you or not. I cannot even begin to understand this wayward thinking. Just cruel.

She is absolutely waiting you out and I seriously doubt that will ever change. Good luck with your D. She is living in a parallel universe if she thinks a card will matter after what she has done.

posts: 133   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
id 8684282
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BlueRaspberry ( member #76065) posted at 12:36 AM on Thursday, August 19th, 2021

Legatus,

You said

Now that I consider everything a possible lie, it's easy to see them. I asked a few night ago if they spoke on the phone during this recent episode. She said no. Then I asked if they had spoken at all in any way and she disclosed one zoom call. She's old enough to understand the spirit of the question. This small interaction was telling.

Your WW is unbelievable. The fact that she is still talking to this clown after all her crocodile tears. Then the way she responded to your question, like a 10 year older trying to avoid telling the truth by avoiding the spirit of your question. There isn't a snowball's change in hell that the timeline she provides will provide a truthful account and certainly no admission of a PA.

As soon as you're ready to drop the hammer, do it and don't look back...

[This message edited by BlueRaspberry at 12:49 AM, Thursday, August 19th]

posts: 231   ·   registered: Dec. 29th, 2020
id 8684283
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 1:02 AM on Thursday, August 19th, 2021

Sorry, I was t clear with my last post. I edited it now. She had a zoom call with him in February not recently. Well, at least as far as I know. She maintains there has been no communication since May.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8684286
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Jameson1977 ( member #54177) posted at 1:04 AM on Thursday, August 19th, 2021

Well, like we very profession, there are good, bad and awe full IC’s, MC’s.

My WW saw a psychiatrist prior to dday but before and during her A’s. Ironically, she was honest with him about her A’s. His advise, “well, you are here working on you, and that shows progress. What good would come from telling your husband?” My wife sure didn’t think that advise was wrong! We saw an IC together and I told her what this psychiatrist said, and she carefully (she didn’t want to slag a peer) said, “well…..that wouldn’t have been my advise to you”….then said “actually, that is terrible advise”.

Your WW sounds like mine. Do the bare minimum, try to deflect, delay, stall, whatever she could to prolong this nightmare. She admitted all this to me years after. She thought she could act better, make token efforts (that really didn’t take much actual effort”), and hope that time healed all wounds. Your WW thinking she could jump right back into the marital bed is telling. Again, strikingly similar to my WW.

When I gave her the ultimatum of intense IC or we are D, I met with the IC after my WW had a couple sessions. I was brutally honest with the IC. I didn’t paint myself as this perfect husband or was infallible, you know, the fu#king truth!! How revolutionary!! Be honest with the professional tasked with helping you correct poor behaviour, setting boundaries and modifying your behaviour!!! The IC was kind, easy to talk to but did not let my WW off the hook, ever. My WW would cry, and the IC would call her on it. It was actually a bit strange for me to watch my WW being called on her shit by someone other than me.

posts: 720   ·   registered: Jul. 16th, 2016
id 8684287
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beb252 ( member #78948) posted at 4:46 AM on Thursday, August 19th, 2021

The night we got home she was getting ready to sleep in our bed, she looked super surprised when I told her not to. I explained I was playing nice during the trip as to not ruin it for the kids or taint the trip in some way. She totally thought waiting me out and writing cards would do the trick. That kind of pissed me off.

I believe she's still living the lie. She thought giving out cards would fix everything even if she doesn't work on the real issue.

[This message edited by beb252 at 11:26 AM, Thursday, August 19th]

posts: 387   ·   registered: Jun. 14th, 2021
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RocketRaccoon ( member #54620) posted at 7:13 AM on Thursday, August 19th, 2021

The mentality is like a child.


I think this sums your WS up.

Her actions that she has shown points to the immature mentality she has, and is still holding on to.

The mental image I have of her, is a girl that bats eyelids, twirls her hair, and giggles to get her way. Trying to 'cute' her way out of things. When she does not get her way, pouts are the look of the day.

Unless your WS can get out of this mentality, you will have to add her as another child to raise.

You cannot cure stupid

posts: 902   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2016   ·   location: South East Asia
id 8684322
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steadychevy ( member #42608) posted at 2:18 PM on Thursday, August 19th, 2021

Legatus, I'm so sorry you are needing the support group of SI. As you've experienced, it's full of caring, supportive people hoping to help you get out of adultery.

I never did get a timeline. It was one of the few conditions I had given her verbally and in written form in order to see if attempting R would be possible. Possible for me. Not her.

I see her at family functions - 3 daughters and 10 grandchildren. I also rent the land she got in the divorce from her and she still has stuff here on the ranch that she hasn't dealt with in spite of repeated requests and demands to do so. Recently she said she did a timeline.

She has not. The timeline she did do was entirely based on the facts I had about her travel, etc. that I gave her. I have all the old expense claims, telephone and cell records, charge card bills, timesheets, etc. It provided a skeleton. Bare minimum. It's like a skeleton without the flesh. She's never done the flesh. It was 4 years after DDay when we separated (finally). We are now divorced.

I think my XWW thought that all she had to do was wait it out. If she waited long enough I would quit being "mad" and life could just go on.

From my biased point of view I'm just giving you the possibility that you may not get a timeline. If you do the possibility is that it will so inadequate it' like not getting one.

Be prepared. I believe you are. You are so far ahead of where I was at the same period after DDay. Good for you. Stay strong. Strength of mind and clarity of thought.

BH(me)70; XWW 64; M 42 yrs
DDay1-01/09/13;DDay2-26/10/13;DDay3-19/12/13;DDay4-21/01/14
LTA-09/02-06/06? OM - COW
"dates" w/3 lovers post engagement;ONS w/stranger post commitment, lies, lies, lies
Separated 23/09/2017; D 16/03/2020

posts: 4674   ·   registered: Feb. 27th, 2014   ·   location: Canada
id 8684345
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The1stWife ( member #58832) posted at 2:27 PM on Thursday, August 19th, 2021

As I always say it’s not necessarily the Affair that destroys a marriage. It’s the behavior after Dday that is worse.

You can always choose not to continue to live with the disrespect. Period. You don’t need a "reason" to D. You don’t need to justify why you wish to S or D. You just get tired of the disrespect and you reach the conclusion that life is better (for the betrayed) from leaving the cheating spouse.

Period.

Always have an exit strategy. That is my take away from the affairs.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 2:28 PM, Thursday, August 19th]

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled.

posts: 10686   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8684347
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 9:26 PM on Monday, August 23rd, 2021

Update - To my surprise I actually received her version of a timeline. It was a bit of a mixed bag. It got my heart thumping and that tingling feeling your body gets. At least I wasn't feeling that way because it lacked new information. It seemed on the light side. There was a lot of her stating something and then talking about the physiological reasons she made the decisions. I didn't see the explanations as minimizing, I got the feeling she was really trying to understand her decisions.

Anyways, I know most of you are wondering if she addressed if there was a PA. Based on her statements in the timeline I would have to say yes, I consider what she disclosed a physical affair. I think the story she's giving me is true, but leaves out the part where they had sex.

"We went for dinner that night and went back and had some wine and talked more. I confided in him how I was feeling about turning 40 and how I didn’t really feel like myself anymore (and all the other feelings you know I was having)."

"At one point when we were talking he held my hand (like playing it off in a comforting way) and asked if that was ok. I said not really, but I did it anyway for a bit. We ended up sleeping in the same bed because we were still talking, but there was no cuddling or funny business."

"He has made light of us sleeping in the same bed since then, and we made jokes a few times. Like referring to the night we "did it" or whatever. "

That was pretty much her whole story for the weekend. This arrived via a word document and I put a lot of follow up questions for that part. It makes no sense. He held her hand, she said no, but he kept holding it, then all the sudden they fall asleep in the same bed talking. A whole bunch of stuff was left out there, like how did they end up in a bed? I won't list all the questions, but I think you all can imagine what they are. I think her mention of the joke they had about doing it is her trying to get ahead of any message I recover where that "joke" comes up. The night and build up to the night makes me 99% sure it was a full PA, at least for that night.

She did disclose a few thing that led up to that night. That night was Oct-2017. She disclosed during the summer of 2017 "And then we started texting all time. We started joking inappropriately. Never sexting or anything super dirty, but teasing and flirty I guess you could say. Not all the time, but obviously none of this is proper. At one point he joked and called me his VM, or virtual mistress."

Then she saw him in August 2017. She had gone back west with the kids for a visit. There was one day he hung out with her and the kids. It sounds like he flew out to California just to see her. I know from my previous research the kids were around all day. During this trip he saw them back to their hotel and she and him had a glass of wine after the kids were asleep. During the conversation "At one point he asked if I had ever cheated on you (red flag!!) and I said no. And then he asked if I ever would and I said no (bigger red flag!!)."

Not a ton of new information other than that. I am working on going through it to ask questions. I think further exploration and details of that night is a must. I plan to respond in writing and ask her to respond in writing. I'll save each word doc so I can compare information on new versions to the old versions. It was such a brief disclosure with large periods of time disappearing. She fully expects to have to take polygraph, so I think what she wrote is true. Her superpower is lying by omission. I think something occurred between getting home from dinner and somehow ending up in a bed. I always contented that he was being an aggressive mate poacher based on his actions. Her filling in some of these blanks about his efforts validates that.

I still plan to file for separate maintenance at a minimum.

She is stating that she regrets all of it and is owning up to it as an affair. I feel like she's made some progress. I am at least going to engage with her long enough to get all the information I can. Once gotten all I feel like I can get I'll schedule a polygraph. That's also when I'll have her write a letter to his wife. I'm guessing she doesn't know how he was pursuing my wife, making flirty dirty jokes, and that they slept together. I bet it was the marital bed they slept in.

One last thing, and this has to do with her IC. About a year after they spent the night together she resumed communicating with the POS because "We had the temporary no- contact thing, and I didn’t talk to him until I spun it to IC and he told me it was ok to talk to Barry since he was "just a friend" and that it was my choice.

Now at that point our marriage had been in a state of crisis for a year because of my wife's relationship with this guy. She might have lied to her IC about the nature of the relationship, but even if she did, I can't imagine how an IC would give that advice. The MC figured it out really fast and called my wife out. If he hadn't figured it out via context clues then he might just be stupid. My plan is to insist she stop seeing him. I don't think a counselor like that will do anything other than tell her what she wants to hear. Regardless of her marital status, she needs an IC that won't just placate her so he doesn't have to work hard.

I'll probably editing this for typos.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
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Stevesn ( member #58312) posted at 9:52 PM on Monday, August 23rd, 2021

Remember this list of questions. I still say they are your most direct way of getting answers. People didn’t like #2 so skip that one.

Tell her to expect to be poly’d on any and all of these so she knows you’re serious.

1) have you ever kissed Barry on the mouth?

2) have you ever romantically embraced Barry

3) has Barry ever touched your breasts

4) has Barry ever seen your breasts naked

5) has Barry ever seen your naked vagina

6) has Barry ever fondled your vagina thru your clothes

7) has Barry ever touched your naked vagina?

8) have you ever seen Barry’s naked penis

9) have you ever touched Barry’s penis thru his clothes

10) have you ever touched Barry’s naked penis?

11) has Barry’s penis ever been inside your mouth?

12) has Barry’s penis ever been inside your vagina

13) has Barry’s penis ever penetrated you anally

14) has Barry’s mouth ever contacted your vagina

15) has Barry’s fingers ever penetrated any part of you

16) did you ever say "I love you" to Barry

fBBF. Just before proposing, broke it off after her 2nd confirmed PA in 2 yrs. 9 mo later I met the wonderful woman I have spent the next 30 years with.

posts: 3199   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2017
id 8684978
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beb252 ( member #78948) posted at 10:01 PM on Monday, August 23rd, 2021

Two lovers drinking wine together and funny enough ended up sleeping on the same bed, doing nothing funny. Yeah! Your WW's superpower is truly lying by omission. Two lovers expressing their feelings throughout the night, holding hands together while drinking just ended up sleeping on the same bed? It's like she's had amnesia and she didn't know why they ended up sleeping on the same bed? From drinking the wine to waking up on the same bed as if nothing happened?

You don't end up sleeping on the same bed with your lover and state to your husband. Ummm... yeah, we drank wine and then we didn't know how we ended up sleeping together but we didn't cuddle, we just slept through our lust for the night. Yes, we didn't have sex but we were too lustful for the entire night, we held hands you know we were handsy for the entire night... and then I really don't know why we slept on that same bed that night... I really don't.

Funny enough.

[This message edited by beb252 at 11:25 PM, Monday, August 23rd]

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id 8684982
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BlueRaspberry ( member #76065) posted at 10:02 PM on Monday, August 23rd, 2021

Legatus,

He held her hand, she said no, but he kept holding it, then all the sudden they fall asleep in the same bed talking. A whole bunch of stuff was left out there, like how did they end up in a bed? I won't list all the questions, but I think you all can imagine what they are. I think her mention of the joke they had about doing it is her trying to get ahead of any message I recover where that "joke" comes up. The night and build up to the night makes me 99% sure it was a full PA, at least for that night.

Really? They just fell asleep while holding hands? Complete bullshit. This is just more trickle truth - standard operating procedure for cheaters. She is slowing trickling out more information over time in the hope you'll be satisfied and stop asking questions. If you want the truth, keep asking follow-up questions, filling out the timeline and follow everything up with a polygraph. I would guess you'll get the infamous "parking lot confession" just before the polygraph admitting to sex. Assuming that happens, have her document everything in the letter to the OBS. Have her provide a copy to her (hopefully new) IC as well. Then you can drop the hammer with divorce papers...

[This message edited by BlueRaspberry at 10:02 PM, Monday, August 23rd]

posts: 231   ·   registered: Dec. 29th, 2020
id 8684983
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 Legatus (original poster member #79152) posted at 10:31 PM on Monday, August 23rd, 2021

Stevesn - those questions are still in plat. I agree with what Blueberry said about trickle truth. My plan is to not act bothered by what she’s told me so far. This probably makes me a bad person, but I feel like it’s what she’s done to me. I’ll give her little pieces of hope kibble each time she gives me more information. Basically incentivizing truth.

She still thinks I know more than I do, but I’m keeping it to myself so I know if she’s being truthful. I’ll let her continue thinking that. I’m going to super concentrate on filling out the timeline during the sleepover. Because of geographic distance there’s only a half dozen times they could have had sex after the sleepover. Oddly, now that some hours have gone by since I read the timeline I’m relaxed. Having already been checked out. I’m super pissed at him. He represented himself as my friend as well. I really want to beat the crap out of him, but that would set me back financially, and with my jobs, being arrested for battery would be a death sentence.

posts: 82   ·   registered: Jul. 21st, 2021
id 8684990
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beb252 ( member #78948) posted at 11:47 PM on Monday, August 23rd, 2021

I know you're already checked out of the marriage and you're strongly leaning on D right now. It's only a make-believe that you're trying to dig in the truth from her. Why not sit her down one last time and state that you are already 100% on D and call her out on her bunch of lies and you don't believe her at all.

She's putting in false effort for R and you're putting her in a false make-believe R which actually is just a tool you're using to dig out information from her. It won't do you any good now since you're already decided to D.

Just my 2 cents.

posts: 387   ·   registered: Jun. 14th, 2021
id 8685018
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BlueRaspberry ( member #76065) posted at 11:59 PM on Monday, August 23rd, 2021

Legatus,

My plan is to not act bothered by what she’s told me so far. This probably makes me a bad person, but I feel like it’s what she’s done to me. I’ll give her little pieces of hope kibble each time she gives me more information. Basically incentivizing truth.

I don't think acting impassively while she tells you what happens is being a bad person. First, you obviously want to understand as much of the truth as possible so you can have some closure. Totally understandable and there is nothing wrong with that. Second, you wanted some time to gear up for an inevitable divorce battle. Keep her busy and off balance while you prepare. If she was planning to divorce, do you think she'd telegraph her plans? I don't think so. Third, you would like to make sure the OBS is aware of Barry and your wife's true character. I totally get that and agree. So, play it cool, don't react to her admissions, and go forward with your plan to question, polygraph and inform the OBS.

[This message edited by BlueRaspberry at 12:00 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

posts: 231   ·   registered: Dec. 29th, 2020
id 8685021
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guvensiz ( member #75858) posted at 12:18 AM on Tuesday, August 24th, 2021

I think her mention of the joke they had about doing it is her trying to get ahead of any message I recover where that "joke" comes up. The night and build up to the night makes me 99% sure it was a full PA, at least for that night.

Yes, that's what I was thinking when I read it. Probably there are textings about the sex they have made and she thought you saw them and wanted to explain it to you.

Did you know about their meeting in August? If I remember correctly, you let her go because she listed him among the people she missed during the counceling. However, they had met a few months ago. It seems that they had sex before that night in october.

Never sexting or anything super dirty,

If I don't understand wrong, not super dirty means dirty in your WW's language, right? Stupid mind games, disgusting...

posts: 501   ·   registered: Nov. 14th, 2020
id 8685025
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 1:51 AM on Tuesday, August 24th, 2021

I’m going to super concentrate on filling out the timeline during the sleepover. Because of geographic distance there’s only a half dozen times they could have had sex after the sleepover.

There's a pretty good chance something inappropriate happen much earlier. When they were running mates. Before you moved across the country. There's a reason you were uncomfortable with the relationship. EA with opportunity equals PA. Going on frequent runs together gives you several hour blocks of time for which you don't have account. Plus the endorphin high from running works as a decent aphrodisiac.

Those that are good at lying do so by incorporating lil bits of truth and omitting the damaging parts. He may have been grooming her as she stated. I'd bet that was much earlier on though and I'd almost guarantee she wasn't as reluctant a participant as she paints herself. I see the sleep over is them reliving there previous affair. You also don't know where and when he traveled. An hour here and there when he flies in is easy for her to hide.

Get written yes/nos on the questions that Stevesn suggests. Let her know that you will be testing that along with the timeline being factually and chronologically correct with the polygraph. There's a pretty decent chance that she will end up with a failed test or parking lot confession.

[This message edited by grubs at 1:52 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

posts: 764   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2021
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beb252 ( member #78948) posted at 2:33 AM on Tuesday, August 24th, 2021

I think I may have written before that their affair may have started during the time that they were working together. And it is highly likely that it was already physical back then. They have their own love language. They have their own thing that only the two of them understands. Prime example is their joke on what they have done... what things they did and how they did it... It's not a joke. It's the real deal. They only downplay it so it will appear acceptable to people who can read it.

posts: 387   ·   registered: Jun. 14th, 2021
id 8685050
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longsadstory1952 ( member #29048) posted at 3:21 AM on Tuesday, August 24th, 2021

So they fell asleep after talking. Fully clothed? Underwear? Naked?

Have you ever tried sleeping in the same bed with an adult of the opposite sex that is not a relative that you have not already screwed? It does not work. At least in my experience from my college days. The only sleep comes after you tear it up.

Your wife must think you are an idiot.

posts: 1067   ·   registered: Jul. 14th, 2010
id 8685059
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