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My WH had a LTA with an old GF. I think my WH and his LTA AP were about 23 when they first dated, for maybe 2-3 months. The other PA AP (at least that he's admitted to) was also an old GF, and they dated when he was in his late 20s, maybe very early 30s, for less than a year.

It's super common. Some on SI have dealt with their WS having a PA with and ex spouse

I think something about those old flames make a cheater think they are that age again.

I have no idea what her deal is. If she is in the middle of an awful divorce maybe she is looking for someone she thinks is stable (so good decision on her part, right?) or maybe it's nostalgia? I'm utterly disgusted and furious with him but he is cute and successful and I can see why she'd be into him. It's his fault for not stopping the whole thing before it even started, of course.

Or, maybe she's a nut case. Running around town pretending to be the wife, sex in the company latrine, etc. etc. doesn't bode well. Moving from FaceBook messenger to "I'm you future" in a few short weeks seems obsessive. Be careful! Document everything. Don't engage with her if you can avoid it. I sense cray cray.

You rock!! I know it doesn't feel like it but these are the steps that you needed to take your power back. Many know it but can't do it for many reasons. You will move up and down the roller coaster emotionally. All I can say is don't listen to his words watch his actions. His first one was to tell you its over and then instead of going to his moms or a hotel he went to OW. Actions speak louder. When you're ready I'd definitely tell the kids in age appropriate terms and his mother. And whoever else you decide. Esp if he's spinning tales about you cheating. Stay strong and post away. SI is the best club you never want to join and we've got your back.

[This message edited by childofcheater at 7:14 AM, June 9th (Wednesday)]

absolutely no intention of disrupting his extremely comfortable life here at home. Why would he as long as he could have it both ways?

Cake eating at its finest. Hang in there, sending virtual hugs.

OMG this shit is so cringe! Like I get it when you're horny and 16 but, now? Sounds like they're both getting the gifts they deserve.

Still, I am so sorry that your family has been thrown this shit sandwich. You are an amazing role model for your daughters and a classy woman all around. Something his highschool hor will never be.

Strength and serenity to you <3

I have to say you are one impressive woman. I wish I had been as clear minded as you are when I was going through this. You'll have your ups and downs, but you are doing the right thing by not putting up with his nonsense. And you are being a true example to your kids about how they should expect to be treated in life.

That being said, I hope you've gone shopping for those Real Housewife cocktail dresses, and if you need help, I could see myself starting a go-fund-me page for all those martini glasses you are going to throw in people's faces. I hope you get it on video.

have to say you are one impressive woman. I wish I had been as clear minded as you are when I was going through this. You'll have your ups and downs, but you are doing the right thing by not putting up with his nonsense. And you are being a true example to your kids about how they should expect to be treated in life.

That being said, I hope you've gone shopping for those Real Housewife cocktail dresses, and if you need help, I could see myself starting a go-fund-me page for all those martini glasses you are going to throw in people's faces. I hope you get it on video.

You are so sweet! Thank you so much, but I'm really not. I've already dealt with a lot of very similar feelings much earlier in our marriage when our girls were little bitty (like great big hairbows and smocked dresses little) and he ended up in rehab due to alcoholism and his refusal to create any boundaries with his dad who was a charismatic womanizer and alcoholic (and also a third string NFL quarterback so just good enough to make WH's college football career never quite good enough. It's a whole thing and it's a mess and also very sad.)

Anyway, I'm not sure that I'm not just a huge spoiled brat who isn't going to put up with not being the star of the show. Maybe I'm just not a very nice person and OW is, lol. I mean, there have to be some cases where the BS is just dreadful, right? Full disclosure - I've had about 3 cosmos and it's so nice to be able to have whatever I want in own kitchen. I finally told my best friend what is going on and she has convened a summit and all my very best girlfriends and my sister and me of course are flying down to my grandparents house on Vero Beach on Friday. Also she's a lawyer and doing all kinds of things to separate my money and bank accounts and things from his. I think I will have new debit and credit cards tomorrow when I go and sign things. And something about beneficiaries on things.

I am not at all clear minded right now and I'm probably making a complete fool out of myself, lol. I don't know when the last time was I let myself drink what I wanted and ramble how I wanted. I'm not sure what I want. Do I always have to know? I think I want to not GAF as the kids say.

Oh I'm so mad. I've kept it together pretty well except the one night I went outside and cried but this is just beyond everything. Who on God's green earth does she think she is to pretend to be him and text me? And what is he doing letting her?

I doubt he "let" her text you. Methinks he was just passed out drunk on her sofa for a change. And, unlike you, she (unsurprisingly) went with immature deceit to try and get more info because she's desperately trying to work out what's going on.

I don't know if I'm a massive snob or if I have a massive ego or what it is, but as sad and broken-hearted as I am, what keeps going through my head is, "How dare you think you can treat me that way? What world do you live in that you thought I wouldn't raise nine kinds of holy hell before I would put up with this kind of disrespect and humiliation?"

Nope to either of these. I think your ego has your back. This is exactly the healthy kind of anger that a sane, grown-up person in your situation should have.

Yay for scary lawyer friends!!! And girlfriend and sister summits.

Just don't put off looking for an IC now that you're getting this type of emotional support. There is absolutely everything right in basking in the support of women who know and love YOU, wallowing in outrage and indignation and tearing his character apart for a bit. But at some point, an objective and constructive perspective needs to kick in. If you have a close friend who can help lead you out of the emotional minefield down the road, then that's OK. (IME, if they care about you, they're too angry to be able to do that.)

May the ocean soothe you and the beach bless you. Be strong.

I'm not sure that I'm not just a huge spoiled brat who isn't going to put up with not being the star of the show. Maybe I'm just not a very nice person and OW is, lol. I mean, there have to be some cases where the BS is just dreadful, right?

NDJC, your WH chose to lie and cheat, put your health at risk and prioritized ego and d*** stroking above the well being of his own family. He didn't make these choices because of what you are or aren't, or what you did or didn't do. HE DID IT BECAUSE HE FELT ENTITLED TO DO IT. His cheating is 100% on him! Of course there are cases where a spouse is dreadful. An unhappy spouse may ask for marital counseling, file for divorce, or separate. There are many ethical ways to change an unhappy marriage. Infidelity is not one of them. And, from what you describe, it seems your marriage was not dreadful, and I don't get the impression you are a "spoiled brat"- quite the contrary. On the other hand, your WH is obviously a selfish escapist. He's the "dreadful" spouse here. You are the ethical partner charting an honorable course. Hang in there! You're doing an impressive job instituting consequences your WH needs to experience, whether you eventually reconcile OR divorce. And you're doing what needs to be done to protect your family. Have a restorative weekend in Florida. Rest and recharge. Glad you have a tribe in your corner!

PS: edited to add

While we're at it, let's include alcoholism, Dad/FOO issues on the list of circumstances that don't exonerate or explain his poor choices. This is all on HIM. He did it because he wanted to. It's not your job to figure out his WHY. Your job right now is to take care of you and yours. Which you are doing splendidly.

PPS:

This feels particularly egregious because if they've been hooking up since December, they were bumping and grinding in Hampton Inn Suites and the company latrine during the height of covid. She's a nurse so should know better. Another red flag about her potential state of mind. I'm not placing the blame on her. It takes two. Not only was he putting your health at risk (STD's), they were putting the health of both families at risk for covid exposure every time they met up. Double the risk factor if she's a nurse working during the pandemic pre-vaccination

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 6:35 PM, June 12th (Saturday)]

NDJC, I think this is part of the fantasy that the cheaters have. Not where it's a ONS but where there is the separate "relationship".

There was history and similar circumstances that tied or bound your WH and the OW. While in their fantasy and when they can be safely out in public they act like it's a separate marriage or SO or something.

My XWW had an LTD. While she was travelling for work with her AP they took the opportunity to stroll through a Christmas merchant event in a small city 8 hours away from where we lived. They were staying over night there. I'm sure they looked like a married couple strolling through the displays.

Another time my XWW took her AP with her to a medical appointment with a specialist 2 and a half hours from where we lived. I didn't know she had the appointment. He went in to the office with her, pulled a magazine and sat in the waiting room while she had the appointment. Her with a Mrs. and wedding rings and the doting "husband" with her. When she gave me the receipt for the medical expense I asked why I didn't know. I could have gone with her. She said it wasn't important and didn't want to bother me. All my travel and appointments, etc. were on a calendar in the kitchen so everyone would know my whereabouts all the time. Apparently, not hers.

I don't think this kind of behaviour is unusual where the cheaters think that they can get away with it. After all, it's a relationship of sorts in their minds. I don't think your experience and mine are that unusual. Just cheater behaviour where there is some sort of longer connection between them.

Hope you're hanging in there!

We're having a lovely time laying around and being lazy on the beach. Thank you so much for all the kind words and thoughts.

WH called today very emotional and talking about wanting to go to marriage counseling and asking when I was coming home. He said he was going to go down to my parents and pick the girls up. I talked him out of that, thank goodness. The last thing I need is him playing house with that woman and the girls at our house or something ridiculous like that until I get home. I do think they need to come home when I get home though. I need to talk to them and tell them something. Any advice for how to handle this with a 15 year old and very soon (like in about a month) to be 14 year old?

Anyway, I can't imagine what's gotten into him. Maybe his mother lit into him. She was livid when I talked to her. Or maybe there's trouble with Mrs. Chiropractor. Who knows? Whatever it is, he must know absolutely nothing about me despite 19 years of marriage and 3 years of dating if he thinks one pathetic phone call is going to magically fix this. I find myself continually amazed by his stunning selfishness and myopic inability to or unwillingness to understand the impact of his actions on the rest of us.

Glad you're enjoying your weekend! And way to stay strong and see thru the BS.

I would just explain in age appropriate terms. Don't let WH hide from his actions.

I would be as truthful as possible. Dad broke his promise to you if you want to add by dating while married you can or just leave it at that he broke promises to you and hurt you and it's between you and him. Their relationship with their dad is separate. I'm sure he loves them. His actions do/will affect them but they don't need to choose sides and they will for sure need to work thru their own feelings of betrayal. I'm sorry you have to have these conversations with your kiddos that's almost harder than dealing with everything else. :(

You expect him to be a grown-up. She only expects him to be romantic. One of you lives in reality and it’s not her.

Do you know the age he was when he started drinking? The more I hear about, and read about, drug and alcoholic abuse the more I realize they stunt emotional growth. If you start as a teenager then you stay a teenager. Whatever age your husband was when he got addicted to alcohol is his emotional age right now.

Because it’s in my husband’s family he decided not to tempt it and no longer even has a beer. It’s not necessary to life to get high. It’s really just that simple.

Any advice for how to handle this with a 15 year old and very soon (like in about a month) to be 14 year old?

I would be honest, albeit age-appropriate, with them. My kids were young adults, but even so, I told them that their father had been unfaithful and with whom, but I also reminded them that I'm a big girl who can stand up for myself and that I didn't need them butting in and choosing sides. It's best not to editorialize, but rather just give the facts. This is about your marriage, and it's okay for you to be territorial over it. And yeah... I practically choked on my own stomach bile, but our kids are literally made up of half mom and half dad, so I did remind them that their Dad loves them and that it's okay to love imperfect people. Attacks on a parent are basically absorbed as attacks on half of their sense of self, so it's good to let them know that we're okay and we can handle our business.

I know WS's don't like the kids finding out, but IME, it's impossible to hide something this big from them and when we try, we look like we're being arbitrarily mean to our spouse. Plus, kids hear through the walls as you know, and there's no way to know exactly what they've already heard. It's best that they know they can talk to you about anything and that you'll always shoot straight with them. For me, my policy of honesty with my kids trumped my fWH's desire to hide his dirt.

Right now, the ball appears to be in your court, so if you are of a mind toward R, it's a good time to be thinking about what you need to see from him in order to give him a chance. Bear in mind that no cheater is owed a second chance. He knew when he chose to cheat what the consequences might be. So, if you already KNOW that this is a deal-breaker for you, you're at no obligation to back down from that position. If you're not sure yet... this is a GREAT time to break up his romance with the OW. It doesn't feel very nice for OW's to get tossed under the bus when the wife finds out as you might imagine, but bear in mind, that even something which is THAT shaming doesn't stop a determined OW. She'll keep on trying to land her dubious prize. But in the long run, if R doesn't happen for you and your WH, she's going to KNOW that you were his first choice and it will undermine her security for all time.

So, if R isn't off the table, I would recommend that your WH write a "No Contact" letter, one that you approve. It should say that he doesn't want any more contact from the OW, that what happened between them was a mistake, and that HE LOVES HIS WIFE and wants nothing more than to repair his marriage. He should tell her than any further contact will be viewed as harassment and will be treated as such and through legal means if necessary. He should hand over all his passwords, close whatever emails and apps he used for cheating, change his phone number, download a family gps tracker, and anything else you need to feel secure. He needs to get into IC in order to find out what was so broken in his character that allowed him to say "yes" to cheating and lies. And when you're ready, he should attend MC with a qualified, hopefully Gottman-trained therapist. And... at any point, you might decide to bail. You aren't obliged to make any commitment you're not ready for yet, because feelings change A LOT in the 2 to 5 years it takes for healing to occur.

...he ended up in rehab due to alcoholism and his refusal to create any boundaries with his dad who was a charismatic womanizer and alcoholic (and also a third string NFL quarterback so just good enough to make WH's college football career never quite good enough. It's a whole thing and it's a mess and also very sad.)

Bear in mind that right now, you are NOT required to be thinking about what your WH's malfunction might be. It's not your job to diagnose him or to understand him or to fix him. But... if you're looking for some possible answers, you might try Terrence Real's I Don't Want to Talk About It. The dynamic you described between your WH and his father made me think of Real's treatise on "Covert Male Depression" and how unhealthy father/son relationships can cause problems in middle aged men. It's an interesting read in any event.

Remember that no matter how bad things get and how agonizing the pain might be... it's temporary and finite. It's a matter of time. Becoming proactive in your own healing can help. Taking excellent care of your body and putting YOUR needs first can help. So don't be afraid to be a little selfish just now.

((hugs))

I'm the adult child of an alcoholic. I married an alcoholic (I didn't know it at the time cuz he was fun when he drank, the total opposite of my father).

About 10 yrs. into our marriage, he had an affair with a barfly coworker. He went to rehab, sobered up and got his act together and we were sort of good (I thought we were good but in hindsight, I now realize I was the glue that held everything together) for the next 34 yrs. He didn't drink but he also quit goign to AA. He was a pretty grumpy old man and I suggested he go to his 50th Class Reunion. I even used my Macy's Bucks to get him new outfits and my frequent flyer miles to go out there. Well, he bumped into his old girlfriend from H.S.

Long story but I threw him out after 6 months of him lying to me, humiliating me and having a long distance affair with her. I'm now nearly 72 yrs. old, financially insecure (due to his many bad financial decisions but I kept forgiving him), alone, sad and full of regrets. He's married to her and living in an active 55+ community where they are having fun all the time.

Anyway, the reason I tell you all this is to encourage you to go to AlAnon, even if it's just online or via Zoom meetings. No one else can understand your situation unless they've lived it or are versed in the very complicated tangled web that only alcoholics can weave.

And also, file for divorce. File for divorce and watch his behavior. Don't coach him or cajole him or anything of the kind. Just tell him he's a grown up man who made grownup decisions and now he's facing the grownup consequences of those decisions. And then focus on you and your own healing.

If he goes into rehab and does what's necessary to make amends, you have something to work with and hope for R and can drop the Divorce. If he doesn't, save yourself the heartache that will eventually happen unless HE himself does what he needs to do to help himself be deserving of a loving and loyal wife. And don't get drawn into giving him a list of things he has to do to fix this - that's Cheating Alcoholic 101 behavior, designed to allow them to do the bare minimum on the list and then if it doesn't work out, claim you're the bad guy. HE needs to figure it all out for his very own self.

I'm not an expert but from what you've written, his alcoholism is far enough along that he will require rehab to become sober. He might quit drinking on his own for a week or two but that's only being dry, not sober.

Alcoholism is a disease and he didn't cause it (he isn't an alcoholic because he drinks too much; he drinks too much because he's an alcoholic) but as other posters have pointed out, he is responsible for taking care of it just as he would be if he was diabetic, etc.

And the next time he suggests marriage counseling, laugh. Your marriage doesn't need fixing, HE does.

I'm sorry you're going through this but your intelligence and strength come through loud and clear in every post you write. You will be fine - just keep doing what you're doing and know that the light is at the end of the tunnel.

[This message edited by josiep at 10:17 AM, June 13th (Sunday)]

AlAnon also has a program called AlaTeen which would be excellent for your children.

In Alanon and AlaTeen, we don't talk about the alcoholic at all, although there are people who will let you tell your story and help you get started on the parts of Alanon that will help you with the immediate crisis. Rather, we talk about how to conduct our own lives, free of drama and without feeling negative toward the alcoholic. It's a tricky thing to master because on the one hand, we want to strangle them but on the other, we get that they can't help themselves. It's especially good for the teens to understand that they can love the alcoholic but they can't fix him (nor is his drinking in any way related to them, what they do, etc.).

Ask if they know about the addiction. One of the biggest surprises parents find out is their children were ALWAYS aware of it. There are very few secrets in families that children don’t know. The secrets are the ones they keep from their parents because they are afraid of upsetting the delicate balance of the family on the razor edge. Your kids already know much more than you think. Tell them they can ask anything. Be open. Don’t let them be scared.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 10:40 AM, June 14th (Monday)]

Cooley makes an excellent point. I remember learning in a group I was in that children sense that the alcoholic is "sick" and are quite able to forgive them, realizing they can't help themselves. And they often view their non-addicted parent as the strong one and can begin to resent her (or him, as the case may be) for not fixing things. And this is where honesty about the whole dynamic becomes so crucial because children need to be able to trust the stron parent. It's a tricky path to navigate but it's exactly what AlAnon and Alateen are all about.

I've checked two more things off of my How I Spent My Summer: Cheating Husband Assignment List.

I met with a divorce attorney and I talked to the girls. The meeting with the attorney was, I assume, pretty standard. I'm going to file for divorce so we can be legally separated and I can take care of all the financial and legal things I need to. All that paperwork has been started. I want him to know that I'm not playing around, whatever we eventually decide to do.

The more important thing I did was talk to the girls. I appreciate all the advice about Al-Anon and Alateen. I will definitely look into that. And y'all were right, as usual. The girls knew so much more than I thought they would. It was almost funny. I was being so careful and trying to word everything just right and finally my oldest (who isn't usually known for her tact anyway) said, "Mom - is this about Dad and that woman?" and I about fell in the floor.

The short version of a long story is that my oldest has known something was going on for a while because she goes to school with Chiropractor Wife's son. They don't attend school where I teach because to quote DD, "Gross, Mom, lame. You'd want to hang out with me all day." (No I wouldn't but that's beside the point.) I'm not entirely clear on how the two of them put this information together because apparently they aren't really friends and don't hang out in the same circles. It has something to do with the older sister - who I believe was a college freshman this past school year. I know that is annoyingly vague, but she was kind of vague too and I didn't want her to feel like it was her responsibility to keep track of something she should have never had to know about in the first place, so I didn't want to pump her for information and stress her out.

I stressed that this had nothing to do with them and that although it was understandable if they were upset with their dad, he didn't mean to hurt them or really me either. He was dealing with issues of his own in an unhealthy way. I told them that sometimes really good people we love make bad choices, all that kind of thing. I'd say they took everything very well because they ended up asking me if he was going to buy a convertible next and my youngest informed me that the only way she could possibly deal with her trauma was via a Ferris Bueller-type adventure as soon as the convertible arrives and also can we put in a pool. Um, no.

They did have questions I can't answer right now like are you and Dad going to live together? Are you going to get divorced? Is ________ his girlfriend? And a few I could. Do GeeGee and PaPa know (his mom and step-dad)? Yes. Do Nana and Daddy Pop know (my parents)? Definitely not and we agreed this was for the best. My parents are great, but my mom has lived in her June Cleaver bubble all her life and the way she shows support is by asking the same questions over and over and honestly by nagging and I just cannot listen to it right now.

Anyway, we talked for a long time and they seem okay. I think it might be a good idea for them to talk to someone. I have an appointment with my therapist on Thursday afternoon and if I like her I'll ask her who she recommends for teenagers.

WH came over to pack a bunch of this things and see the girls earlier tonight. He and I talked alone for a long time. I asked a lot of questions about their relationship - dates, details, all kinds of things. I feel like he was being honest with me finally and a lot of the things he told me almost made me sick. I still have a knot in my stomach. He kept saying, "It wasn't a relationship," and I guess he doesn't think it was. I can't imagine what that says about him or about her or what in the hell he thought he was doing. It's baffling. Anyway, he says he's staying at his mom and stepdad's but we'll see. I don't know how serious he is about giving her up and I don't know anything about her at all. I haven't broached the subject of no contact with him yet. I guess that's next on my list if it seems like he's serious.