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Gender inclusive language?

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barcher144 posted 4/19/2021 20:09 PM

I officially apologize for starting this thread.

p.s. I'll still think of pregnant people as weird, though.

ff4152 posted 4/19/2021 21:01 PM

Thereís no issue with treating someone with respect. I would also show a trans person that respect because, believe it or not, I do try to be kind to people from time to time.

But that doesnít change what I believe. As I said previously, the whole idea of mandating what amounts to free speech is problematic to me. It comes down to say this or youíll be sanctioned. It would be the same thing if people started telling atheists that they had to pray before work.

sewardak posted 4/20/2021 07:09 AM

It would be the same thing if people started telling atheists that they had to pray before work.

another stretch.

again, what part of your values/religion includes not recognizing a person who defines his/her own self? Why do YOU get to define them?

ff4152 posted 4/20/2021 08:35 AM

Why do YOU get to define them?

Probably for the same reason that anyone does. I have an opinion. Does it trump anyone elseís? No. But Iím allowed to have it for the same reasons theyíre allowed to have theirs.

ChewedMeUp posted 4/20/2021 10:09 AM

If I were to use the biological pronoun of a transgender person at my place of employment, I could be sanctioned. That's putting someone else's beliefs or feelings above my own ... the whole idea of mandating what amounts to free speech is problematic to me. It comes down to say this or youíll be sanctioned.

Let's take the "respect" thing out of the loop and talk just plain practicalities.

First, (generally) freeze peach is between you and the gov't, not your employer (unless you're a gov't employee, but then there are other rules).

Second, presuming this is a relatively recent change at your employer, like most other places that are finally taking action, you're not getting sanctioned for calling them by their biology, you're getting sanctioned for calling them something other than what they are/will be legally (most likely), under the universal harassment umbrella. Let's roll back the hypothetical by 5 or 10 years. Rather than you insisting on calling Bob "Susan", what if you instead were calling Bob "Jackass", "Putrid", or "Sweetheart"? Do you not also think you'd get sanctioned for that? Heck, my company handbook reserves the right to sanction me for things I may say/do on social media, even if it has no link to them.

You're entitled to hold whatever opinions you like. You're not entitled to outwardly expound on your opinions wherever/whenever you'd like. I can think Bob is a Jackass all I want, but I know better than to call him that at work where others can hear.

[This message edited by ChewedMeUp at 10:12 AM, April 20th (Tuesday)]

DragnHeart posted 4/20/2021 10:38 AM

I am going to get hammered but what the hell.

Its not about calling Bob Susan, or Bob a jackass.

Its being told we cannot use gender to describe ANYTHING these days because it "offends" a select group of people.

What next?

Being told we cannot make the distinction between a hen and a rooster, a bull and a heifer, a sow and a boar? Sure i CAN call all of them chickens, cows and pigs but if i want a male I'm going to say rooster, bull and boar.

Just my opinion...

sewardak posted 4/20/2021 10:46 AM

You're entitled to hold whatever opinions you like. You're not entitled to outwardly expound on your opinions wherever/whenever you'd like.

THIS! Calling them by their birth given name instead of their CHOSEN name/pronoun is disrespectful.

Have your opinion, call them what they want to be called.

Its being told we cannot use gender to describe ANYTHING these days because it "offends" a select group of people.

Where is this happening? I've never heard it.

ff4152 posted 4/20/2021 11:05 AM

Where is this happening? I've never heard it

I guess you donít watch the news. 🤷‍♂️

DragnHeart posted 4/20/2021 11:10 AM

Where is this happening? I've never heard it.

Really?!?

Mr. Potatoe Head.....thats one.

Loukas posted 4/20/2021 11:52 AM

Where is this happening? I've never heard it
Here in Canada itís not only happening, but was passed as law. Known as bill C-16. Everyday folks have to stand before justice tribunals facing sanctions for using scientific biological facts. There is even a man on the west coast in jail for refusing to call his bio son his daughter.

HellFire posted 4/20/2021 11:55 AM

Dragn, if one of your daughters starts to become very introverted, never wants to talk, hides away from friends and family, possibly becomes suicidal, and one day they feel vulnerable enough to open up to you, and they tell you they feel they should have been a boy, they've felt that way for a long time, but they were too scared to tell you...how would you respond? What if, suddenly all of their behavior made sense. You realize this is what they've been dealing with. This is why.

Would you want them to go into the world being told by people they WILL NOT respect them, because those people feel their opinions on something they have no clue about, matters more than your child's entire being?

Or would you tell your child that there is something wrong with them?

Of course, one must teach their children that there are assholes in this world, and unfortunately they're too ignorant to educate themselves on gender identity. But, wouldn't you want the world to be a kinder place, if it were your child?

Kindness costs you nothing. But it is priceless to those who need it.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:59 AM, April 20th (Tuesday)]

sewardak posted 4/20/2021 12:02 PM

Its being told we cannot use gender to describe ANYTHING these days

again, where in the world are we not to use gender at all? Mr. Potato head is ONE example... not anything and everything.

sewardak posted 4/20/2021 12:04 PM

ff - I'm still wondering how you got to the place where you think it's wrong for people to choose their own preferred gender?

DragnHeart posted 4/20/2021 12:23 PM

People can do whatever they hell they want i dont care.

How i would deal with the situation is my business.

I have a problem with being told i cannot use tried and true biological terms when speaking. Being told i cannot use gender specific language is against my right to free speech.

Being told to use gender neutral language is disrespectful to all men and woman.

As a woman, havent we fought hard enough to be seen as equals that its harmful to suddenly have OUR gender neutralized???

I have a problem with being told that my teaching of the "birds and the bees" is wrong. Its NOT wrong. Its biological fact.

FEMALES menstruate, females have babies, females can die of ovarian and cervical cancer. A male cannot.

Males can die from prostrate cancer. A female cannot.

The BIG claim that a MAN had a baby was wrong. It wasn't a MALE who had a baby. It was a transgender woman (or would that be man?, i am so confused).

We ALL know that if the species depended on males to give birth the species would have died out long ago. No offence guys lol.

DragnHeart posted 4/20/2021 12:28 PM

again, where in the world are we not to use gender at all? Mr. Potato head is ONE example... not anything and everything.

See Loukas's post above.

sewardak posted 4/20/2021 12:35 PM

Dragn - again, that's not EVERYTHING. It's ONE example. You're confounding the issue.

tried and true biological terms

see, to some people, those terms are hurtful and disrespectful. It has nothing to do with you. So, why not use them if it is more inclusionary and sensitive? Especially if it's no skin off your back.
I think what you and ff are concerned about is that it goes against YOUR values, your idea of what is right and moral in the world.
Other folks don't share those thoughts.

Additionally, those wanting to be identifed as a specific gender has nothing to do with their ability and biologically birthed way to procreate. So, why bring it in to the discussion? It's only how they wished to be viewed in the world. Why is that so hard?

ff4152 posted 4/20/2021 12:37 PM

sewardak

Itís very simple, I do not believe gender is malleable. I believe a man is a man and a woman is a woman. Like DragnHeart stated, a man cannot give birth to a child. A man doesnít have ovaries. Likewise, women do not have penises or a prostate. Thatís a biological fact.

DragnHeart posted 4/20/2021 12:43 PM

People can be viewed however they want.

Saw a guy who decided he was a CAT. Had his nose removed and shaped like a cats, his teeth altered, whiskers implanted etc.

Thats fine with me, to each their own. But he didnt demand that I change anything about me or how i speak.

If biological Bob wants to be called susan ill call him susan.

Why is it wrong for me and ff to have the belief that gender isn't fluid???

Why cant we have that opinion?

I can have my own personal opinions and still be sensitve.

And as Loukas stated above a man is in jail for refusing to call his bio son his daughter. That IS going to far.

DragnHeart posted 4/20/2021 12:46 PM

So, why bring it in to the discussion?

WHY????

Because schools are telling ME i cannot explain basic reproductive biology to MY children. That THEIR WAY IS THE ONLY WAY. Thats why!

sisoon posted 4/20/2021 12:56 PM

** Posting as a member **

Well, a man IS a man, and a woman IS a woman.

The trouble is that there is a wide range in between and outside of 'man' and 'woman'. Reality is analog, not digital. There are human beings with many characteristics of multiple genders.

Some languages do not use gender in their grammar. English does. How does forcing people into one of 2 genders help anything when gender is often mixed? More important, how does forcing people into one of 2 genders help anything when gender is so often irrelevant?

The Chinese have known for 1000s of years that there's always some female ('yin') mixed with male ('yang') and always some male mixed with female. How can the West be so far behind?

50 years ago, many people objected to 'Ms'. Now it's in common use. With luck, gender-neutral English will be in common use in a lot less than 50 years.

I'd have big problems with laws requiring certain usages, though. I get your dissatisfaction.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:12 PM, April 20th (Tuesday)]

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