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Gender inclusive language?

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DragnHeart posted 4/21/2021 03:33 AM

That birth certificate advance is wonderful. What difference does it make to a bureaucracy?

It makes a difference to ME as a WOMAN. Instead of being able to be proud of MY gender, to use MY gender specific language, i am reduced to "some people" and "biological female".

Thats not ok with me.

Why is it Ok for a Trans woman to identify as a Trans WOMAN but me as a biological WOMAN cannot?

Honestly, it seems to me like the best solution is to take gender off the birth certificate altogether. What purpose does it serve, really?

Just because YOU feel gender doesn't matter doesn't mean others feel the same. It matters to a lot of people.

Again this doesn't feel like a movement to be inclusive, it feels like a movement to erase biological identity.

What right do you have to tell me my views on gender don't matter?

ff4152 posted 4/21/2021 04:02 AM

As loukas pointed out, this is just another form of exclusion. If someone wants to use non gender specific language, great. But what about folks that donít? Why are their rights any less important?

On the subject of puberty blockers, surgery etc, where do we draw the line? I was watching a news cast about a mother who wanted to do that to her 4 year old. Seriously? We donít let our kids drive a car, drink beer or vote until they are closer to adulthood but we are perfectly fine with pumping kids full of chemicals that will permanently alter their body chemistry.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/21/2021 05:44 AM

What right do you have to tell me my views on gender don't matter?
I didn't say it doesn't matter. I said it's not purposeful on that legal document.

You complain about a law that gives parents options other than the one you would choose. You're offended by a proposal that eliminates all options equally. You've used the word "ridiculous" twice about gender inclusivity. But I'm the one who's shutting your views down?

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 5:45 AM, April 21st (Wednesday)]

sewardak posted 4/21/2021 05:45 AM

What right do you have to tell me my views on gender don't matter?


But what about folks that donít? Why are their rights any less important?

because those who are transgender are being oppressed, bullied, etc. Why not work to be more inclusive?

Those of you against calling someone by their self identified gender: do you think someone would actually CHOOSE this lifestyle for themselves? Wouldn't it be easier for them to live the biology they were born with? They. Simply. Can't. - same as homosexuality.
My Gawd, give them some peace.

[This message edited by sewardak at 5:46 AM, April 21st (Wednesday)]

WalkinOnEggshelz posted 4/21/2021 06:03 AM

I feel like this thread is getting pulled off the original topic with the discussion of puberty blockers.

The original discussion was about the language we use.

I donít live in Canada and am not familiar with the laws or trends happening there, but I am curious who is telling you that you are not allowed to be a woman Dragn?

I am a cisgender woman and mother of two LGBTQ kiddos. I have had a plethora of LGBTQ kiddos in and out of my house. Not a single one of these kids have ever expected me to to change the language in which I identify myself. I have only been asked to use pronouns each one of those kids prefer, be it he, she, or they/them. It hasnít taken anything away from me. I am still who I am.

Maybe there is a bigger movement in Canada? Here in the states there is much pushback and a whole lot of legislation that makes actually being transgender very difficult.

I feel like this is one of those topics that you just donít really know what you will do until you are a part of it. A lot of people have opinions, but not experience. Itís like when your friend who has never been married or have children gives you advice on how to discipline yours.

What I donít understand is what does it cost people to use language that is more gender inclusive? If you meet someone that is non-binary, named Pat are you going to insist on knowing the biology of that person so you can say he or she? Or do you use they/them?

Dragn, go on being a woman because thatís who you are. But maybe have some sensitivity that the person down the street is someone else. Why would their transition affect who you are?

Bigger posted 4/21/2021 06:15 AM

Maybe there is a bigger movement in Canada?

and nobody told me?

sewardak posted 4/21/2021 06:21 AM

what does it cost people to use language that is more gender inclusive?

THIS! But they'll argue it goes against their opinion of the person choosing their own gender. My argument is they're born with a gender they identify with, it may or may not be biological.
Respect that.

DragnHeart posted 4/21/2021 07:24 AM

what does it cost people to use language that is more gender inclusive?

I don't have a problem with people being transgender!!! I would call Bob Susan if he wanted that.

I have a problem with being told i cannot use woman and men when speaking about biological functions and reproduction. The majority of men and the majority of woman have the biological parts of those genders.

I have a problem with a father going to jail for refusing to call his son his daughter. (Hell.if we jailed every person for not being "sensitive" and offending someone we would ALL be in jail!)

I have a problem with people losing their job or being disciplined over using the wrong pronoun.

I have a problem being called "some people". I am not some people. I am a woman. I menstruate, i breast fed, not chest fed.

Sexual orientation and sexual identity are separate discussions from biological reproduction and thus should be taught as a separate section (within the health curriculum)

Why is that so bad?

DragnHeart posted 4/21/2021 07:29 AM

Bigger, when I picture you i see the officer who ran the anti drugs and drunk driving program we had in school. He was big, and tall and just a force not to be reckoned with. He was also funny and kind.

He put us all in an actual jail cell. I can see you running a program like that.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/21/2021 07:55 AM

Bigger, when I picture you i see the officer who ran the anti drugs and drunk driving program we had in school. He was big, and tall and just a force not to be reckoned with. He was also funny and kind.
He put us all in an actual jail cell. I can see you running a program like that.
Clearly, we strongly disagree on some important issues, but we're both on Team Bigger.

DragnHeart posted 4/21/2021 08:01 AM

For the life of me i cannot remember that officers name but i can picture his face...

I'm ok with agreeing to disagree. My opinion doesnt oppress any transgender person. Id treat them as i treat everyone. With respect until they disrespect me. I just will never accept being called some person when i am woman, hear me roar lol.

FaithFool posted 4/21/2021 14:06 PM

Let's talk about erasure.

I took forever to finish my degrees, and when I started at my alma mater there was a Women's Centre.

Went back a few years later and it was the Third Space where women were 'womxn'.

The washrooms in the student union went neutral, and the tampon machines disappeared. You could get a condom and a Tylenol, but no tampons. Whoever was on the Decision Committee must have decided that Periods Were No Longer A Thing. (Womxn and transmxn still need menstrual products...)

The first day of seminars are a round table of gender announcements. Profs are required to keep track of them all (and there are many) and can be sanctioned (via Canadian federal legislation) and/or doxxed out of a job if they screw that up.

Another area of interest is the arts. There used to be specific grants and categories for women. Apply to perform at a music festival now and it's "womxn, non-binary and female-identifying".

A rape relief / crisis centre started in the 70s lost city funding because it chose to remain women-centred and not provide services to or take volunteers from the trans community.

Because some women who have been assaulted by a biological male are retraumatized by being in the same room with the same, regardless of how womanly that person may try to appear to be.

As a 'cis' female (a recent invention because we needed another box to put us in), I have an issue with risking being labelled transphobic (I'm not) for having an issue with the erasure of 'woman' as a valid category in and of itself.

Call me an old fossil, but yeah, Dragn, I hear you, there is a lot to navigate in bringing up your littles.

DragnHeart posted 4/21/2021 14:23 PM

Call me an old fossil, but yeah, Dragn, I hear you, there is a lot to navigate in bringing up your littles.

Thank you for this! I do feel we as woman are being erased. Just another in a long list of things facing woman.

If we all want to be included so damn badly why all the separation and labels? Why can't we all just be human?

ff4152 posted 4/21/2021 14:51 PM

Thank you Dragnheart for succinctly putting into words what I was apparently incapable of conveying.

EllieKMAS posted 4/21/2021 15:20 PM

I feel like this is one of those topics that you just donít really know what you will do until you are a part of it. A lot of people have opinions, but not experience. Itís like when your friend who has never been married or have children gives you advice on how to discipline yours.

What I donít understand is what does it cost people to use language that is more gender inclusive? If you meet someone that is non-binary, named Pat are you going to insist on knowing the biology of that person so you can say he or she? Or do you use they/them?

I have a cousin that is FtM transgendered. I had a reallllly hard time with the pronouns at first - he lives in a different state and I didn't see him throughout the time of his active transitioning. When my grandmother died, he came out to go to the funeral. I was super nervous about seeing him as a boy for the first time, but it ended up being really cool. Cus the second he walked through the door and ran up and gave me a huge hug, I realized that HE or SHE or THEY or whatever didn't matter to me - he was the same exact person I had known all my life. And I haven't had pronoun issues since.

In dealing with trans folks or gay folks or whatever color on the spectrum a person may be, I will always try to respect their preferences. I don't appreciate when people assume things about me because of outward shit, so I won't do it to someone else intentionally either. It costs me nothing to be kind and respectful.

DevastatedDee posted 4/21/2021 22:31 PM

This reminds me of the whole gay marriage debate. "If they gays can get married, my marriage won't mean anything!". Of course, that hyperbolic overreaction wasn't the case and before many more decades most of that freak-out will hopefully be done with.

My daughter is bi and has a trans friend. It didn't hurt me one bit to accept her being bi. Doesn't phase me to respect her friend's gender pronoun of "her". It's really incredibly easy to do. Matter of fact, I don't think of her as male at all because she quite simply just isn't. She is biologically, but none of that is any of my business anyway. My own breasts didn't disappear and I didn't suddenly become not female by recognizing her gender.

I don't understand the issue with "pregnant people", but maybe there's just a difference in how I view my own gender. I don't take any pride in it because it's nothing I had anything to do with. It just is. Has it's drawbacks and it's advantages. If anything, the stereotypes annoy me the most about it as I don't fit them so well. I also feel that anyone biologically male who transitions to female needs the protection of feminists probably more than most, given that they're facing a great many more challenges not being born biologically female. I feel very protective of the people I can tell are trans-women in bathrooms and the like. I'm also not remotely bothered by a trans-man who wants to have a baby. Awesome that he can do that.

Maybe I've just spent more time in the LGBTQ+ community than the average person. I dunno. None of this has thrown me. Okay well, the singular they/them will probably always grammatically throw me, but that's a me problem, not a them problem. I'd rather get over myself about that than not respect someone's pronouns.

And whoever it was who asked why we even care about gender on birth certificates...that's a good point. I'd never thought of it, but you've given me something to think about.

As for the non-binary thing becoming so popular now...it fascinates me. It sometimes hits me as a very creative backlash against cultural norms for gender. Why can't a man paint his toenails and wear eyeliner? Why must a woman be expected to fill so many traditional roles and look certain ways? Why allow society to pigeonhole us by our genders? It's like a middle-finger raised to being imprisoned by people's expectations. Had I been born in my kids' generation, I'd likely have grabbed onto that.

BraveSirRobin posted 4/21/2021 23:22 PM

I've been thinking about this thread a lot today. It's easy to forget what it was like for me four years ago, before I knew that my kid was trans. I didn't see it coming. My daughter grew up happily swathed in princess costumes and buying her entire tween wardrobe from Justice. I had seen news stories about trans kids, but they were always children who had felt wrong in their bodies for their whole lives. I thought that if my kid hadn't identified as transgender by the time they were in grade school, then that particular challenge wasn't one our family had to face. I've since learned that puberty onset is another common stage for dysphoria because kid bodies are pretty androgynous. Things don't feel wrong until they start developing secondary sex characteristics that are inconsistent with their identity.

In any case, when my kid came out, I didn't know a single trans person. I didn't know any other parents of trans kids. My friends wanted to be supportive, but they were as confused as I was. They looked to me to explain things to them. I felt like an intern that got promoted to CEO within the first week on the job. For my kid's sake, I had to figure out what I was supposed to be projecting and advocating when I didn't even really know yet myself. I was reeling with loss, fear, guilt, bargaining, anger, and frustration. I felt gaslighted, helpless, inadequate, and like the whole life I thought I had been living since my kid was born was an illusion.

In the last four years, I've met some amazing people. The adult trans community was very supportive of my child, and it was heartbreaking to see their gratitude towards me for sticking with him. So many of them had been thrown out on the street as young people by parents who opposed their transition. I went to a trans health conference, and literally, I would be in a heartfelt conversation with a complete stranger who would start crying and ask to hug me because they were so glad that my kid was going to be spared the grief and terror of having to navigate this process on their own. I saw people who still weren't ready to come out in the real world, wearing the clothes and prosthetics that helped their outer appearance align with their inner identity, and they were glowing with relief and happiness. It helped me understand the stakes of pronouns like he/him, she/her, they/them. There was nothing ridiculous or nonsensical about the impact of those words.

My inner Mama Bear comes out on this thread when people use derogatory or dismissive terminology about gender fluidity. Because in many ways, my kid did navigate this process all alone. He was nine when he started to grapple with how wrong he felt in his body. Nine! Can you imagine how terrifying that must have been? And what I carry with me is that he was alone because he was ashamed to ask me for help. He knew that I had problems with celebrities like Caitlyn Jenner appropriating a woman's experience. I'd talked about it. I resented the fact that this person who had profited his whole life off the advantages of being a man had now snapped his fingers, announced he was female, and been named Woman of the Year. He had never had a period leak on his clothes in the sixth grade, never been treated as "less than" in his chosen profession, never had anyone suggest that he needed to fuck a powerful man to get on that Wheaties box. I didn't think he had earned the title of "woman." And I said so, and the secret self of my beloved kid, who had been gathering his courage to come out to me, heard that and shriveled in fear and shame. Words have consequences.

This experience informs everything I say about gender inclusive language. There was so much I didn't know about gender identity, and now that I do, I've completely changed my views. I'm so steeped in it now that it feels completely natural to me. I tend to forget that for a lot of people, this is still new and strange.

Maybe the growing acceptance of transgender identity isn't something that some members here will ever embrace, but please remember as you speak that you're unlikely to remain personally untouched by it forever. It might be very close to you right now, and you just don't know it yet. As in many forums here, I'm anxious to help other people avoid choices I made that I now deeply regret. Think carefully about what you say, because you can never take back.

DragnHeart posted 4/22/2021 02:49 AM

BraveSirRobin

Have You Ever Been Raped?

To go back to what FaithFool said and what IS happening IN Canada:

A rape relief / crisis centre started in the 70s lost city funding because it chose to remain women-centred and not provide services to or take volunteers from the trans community.

Because some women who have been assaulted by a biological male are retraumatized by being in the same room with the same, regardless of how womanly that person may try to appear to be.


Now please explain to me how this is justified?


Why can't the Trans community be empathetic and SENSITIVE to the needs and desire of a biological woman who has been assaulted/raped to NOT be in the same room as a person of the sex that hurt them???

Gender neutral washrooms are great.

Taking away feminine hygiene products is NOT.

Especially when many woman struggle to afford them. In fact there's a purses for woman event in my area, where woman buy purses and fill them with products FOR woman.

How can you expect ME as a woman and rape survivor not to be pissed off that the support i had back then isnt available to woman now? That products we as woman require are being taken away?

Why does the right of transgenders trump MY right to a safe supportive environment in a time of crisis and products i need?


DevastatedDee posted 4/22/2021 05:45 AM

Why can't the Trans community be empathetic and SENSITIVE to the needs and desire of a biological woman who has been assaulted/raped to NOT be in the same room as a person of the sex that hurt them???

I have been raped. I can't think of anyone less threatening than a transwoman. I look at her and know that she has dealt with some traumatic shit too. I know men who have been raped and talking with them about it doesn't make me feel threatened either. I know that we're all different, but if you have been raped and cannot be around a person who has a penis, then you are deep into the trauma still and need a lot of therapy. We can't go through our lives fearing anyone who has a penis or we'll wind up locked into our own homes shaking in fear and never actually live.

I have no idea about the sanitary products issue. This isn't something I've ever seen or heard of.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 5:45 AM, April 22nd (Thursday)]

ZenMumWalking posted 4/22/2021 06:41 AM

Dragn - what makes you think that trans women (or biological men for that matter) have not been or cannot be raped?

My son was raped. In my country, rape againt a man was not even a crime until a few years ago. The dinosaurs in charge had decided it was impossible to rape a man, the worst the crime could be was 'sexual assault'.

There are no rape crisis centers for men here. NONE. No one to help guide male survivors of rape through the system. And those fucking creeps have not been caught, even though my son did everything to follow through - go to the hospital, call the police. Who, by the way, were as helpful as they could possibly be.

So why should men, and transgender women, who can both be raped, be excluded from a rape crisis center?

I do not understand.

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