SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

mrplspls, when you do the DNA test it's not just about finding that you are the father, it's important to demonstrates to your wife the deep broken trust that she caused, it's a huge slap on the face and one of the consequences she must face!

It's something you really must do even if you know he is 100% your son!

This, I think is the most important advice you've gotten here. You may be ready to put this all behind you, but you really need to emphasize just how fucked up her cheating is. It puts into question your ENTIRE MARRIAGE...and the lie that is at the base of it...

if my WS is accurate, her relationship with him ended June 10 1988. He moved away from our city at the end of that June.

So is it accurate to say your WW ended the relationship with her boss for whom she was willing to leave you ... because he moved away and probably cut her off or made a clean break with her?

In other words she “ended” the relationship the same month he left the city you live/lived in. It’s safe to assume it ended because he ended it, not her.

And then she came “back” to you, but beyond telling you she was prepared to leave you for him within the same 1987/88 timeframe, she kept it al a secret from you.

I’m sorry but that very much sounds like the deployment of a classic plan A/plan B strategy. She was prepared to branch swing to him, until the branch broke and then it was back to you.

Am I missing something?

In early days ANGER was there, I hope to move it out of the conversation. I am trying to put the years of caring and happiness into the equation.

I think that's a good idea. The anger you're feeling isn't really the primary emotion anyway. It's all about loss. Something you thought you had has been taken away, the "Story of Us" you shared with your mate. It rocks your world in a way which is inexplicable to people who haven't experienced it. But it's just like processing a death, the five stages apply... denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Working through those stages doesn't mean hanging on to them. Instead, you notice your feelings and sit with them until they leave. And they will. You can count on that. We don't get stuck in a stage unless we're holding onto it. These stages can repeat in no particular order, but just as life is fluid, so are our emotions. One will replace another like clouds floating through and endless sky. Feeling anger doesn't mean we must speak or act in anger. It's just a feeling and as such, has no control over us.

I do think you are wise to consider your WW's contributions to the marriage as a mitigating factor. Early on in my own process, I realized that there was NOTHING my WH could do to pay me back. We'd been married for over 30 years when I caught him out on a Craigslist binge with multiple partners and varying degrees of emotional attachment. What price can you put on pain? Nothing he could say, nothing he could do would make us even, but there were things which could mitigate some of his debt to me. I look at it as a bit of an accounting problem actually. I'm not going to use the word "forgiveness" because it would curdle on my tongue. The things he did to me were unforgivable. But, I can recognize when my hand is held out, awaiting reparation which can never come. What coin pays for pain?

So, I tot up all he was willing to do in order to keep me. He opened up emotionally, made changes to his behavior and to the way he viewed potential interlopers, took a new job, moved us out of state, took me on vacations, bought me presents, and basically just treated me like a new girlfriend he badly wanted to impress, etc. So, his CHANGES mitigate some of the debt. But nothing he does can negate it all. It's just too big. At this point, I have to write the rest out of my ledger. I can't hold onto the marriage *and* that debt. One has to go.

Your WW can never pay you back for the 33 years she lied to you. She allowed you to build your life without all the pertinent information, but she's got no method of reparation. All you can do is decide if those 33 years were mitigating. You might also throw in her age and lack of maturity when the adultery occurred. You know, we don't reach full maturity of the frontal cortex (judgment center) of the brain until we're in our mid-20's. Maybe that's a mitigating factor. You can also consider what she's been willing to change about how she values honesty since then, and how she trusted you enough after all these years to confess. Do these items show growth from the person she was back then to the person she is now?

Even after you tot up all the mitigating factors, there's still going to be leftover debt. Pain doesn't have a price tag. At that point, all you can do is go to your ledger and wipe the red out. Start fresh and do your best not to ruminate. Rumination is the path to depression. It's like a record stuck in a groove, digging deeper and deeper into the vinyl until it's ruined. Don't let that be you. TALK, don't ruminate. And if you're happy with the wife you have today, grab your happiness and run with it. Part of the problem we have after a traumatic betrayal is that we tend to live in our own heads, thinking that we're missing a key piece of the puzzle. But IME, it's just not true. We're still competent adults who can make good decisions. We've had a set-back, but we shouldn't let it define the trust we have in ourselves. Trust yourself. If you want your marriage, there's no big secret to keeping it. Grab your happiness and run with it.

I predict that OP will do what he can to maintain equilibrium for the family for the next few years. He'll watch as his daughters spin out of control for a while, because women freak the fuck out, fall apart and embark on a multi-year quest to find out everything they can about their blood family after they find out about their true parentage wasn't what they thought it was. (Men are more "don't give a fuck" about those things, as long as they had a stable home life). But OP will hang in there and be the rock while this hurricane is spinning around the family. His children will cling to him as their anchor. He'll do his fatherly duty because he seems to be a decent and upright man.

But again, I predict, that in five years, after the winds die down, and the flotsam floats out to sea, the slow rot of decay will invade the love he has for his WW, and I think he will eventually decide to end the marriage. We see this happen again and again. Well meaning men (and women) will soldier on thinking that they have a duty to suck it up and take the hits for the family, but the lack of rewards, the growing emptiness and the disillusionment eventually pile up poisoning their sense of self and purpose.

That is what I predict will happen. I hope it doesn't.

[This message edited by Westway at 8:46 AM, October 19th (Monday)]

mrplspls,

I know you are hearing a lot of advice and opinions that are tough truths to absorb.

Every fiber of your being does not want to accept that this is who she really is. 30 or so years of rugsweeping becomes habit.

Ignoring these truths will not get you the relief you are desperately looking for. It will only allow you to fester in this excruciating angst you are experiencing.

I you expect to successfully reconcile, you need to face this shit head on, with your WW by your side. You'll have to reprocess your entire marriage.

What is she doing now? How is she reacting to your pain? What is she doing to understand and fix herself?

If you want to rebuild your M you need to take off your rose-colored glasses and see her for who she really is. Because just as bad as she is for lying to you for thirty years, you lying to yourself has its own kind of destructiveness.

Good luck.

Frankly I don’t see a reason for Westway’s pessimistic post and think posts of that genre are more likely to make new betrayed posters run away from this site. Just because someone doesn’t accept our “truths” as gospel right away doesn’t make him a lost cause.

What is clear mrplspls is that you need to feel at peace to move on.

To ME that peace would be to believe I know enough to move on. There is a saying that goes something like “before you set off on a journey you need to know three things: where you are headed, how you plan on getting there and where you start from.

This is why I have emphasized knowing the truth. That let’s you know where you are starting from. If you are OK with what you know and think that’s enough then fine. But I personally think you need more info. The less doubt you carry the better off you are.

Look – the relationship between husband and wife is meant to be the most intimate and personal relationship in your life. If you were to fall into a coma then this is the woman that decides if your life-support is turned off. This is the woman who you should ask to look at the pimple on your ass or who should know about your fear of spiders. There shouldn’t be any secrets (well… except maybe that you plan on getting one more fishing-rod…). With this intimacy you should not be afraid of asking “when did it end, was there another affair, have you been in any contact” and with this intimacy she shouldn’t be afraid of being truthful.

IF – once you have had that talk – you don’t feel assured then I suggest you use the poly to get that assurance. If shes being truthful the poly is HER tool to move you on. But if you feel safe and assured then fine.

What I will concede about Westways post is that if you are NOT at peace now and if you leave this period with unanswered questions and issues then they will impede you until you deal with them. Like all infections they can fester and grow, even beyond the damage of the initial hurt. Squeeze that boil now rather then let it get infected. I am fairly certain your marriage can survive any truths told now and it will help the marriage grow and prosper. But I am equally certain any untreated issues will fester and hold back the marriage.

BTW – go read M1965 post. I totally agree with it.

Religion particularly evangelical stuff is not allowed on this site , but since I am not a christian and not of christian origin either I think i can get away with this quote

“ when i was a child i spoke as a child i understood as a child i thought as a child but when i became a man i put away childish things “

Pain and anger infantilize us , thats natural and when you read the angrier “ Id “ driven posts its fair to put them in that context

This thread has some absolutely great advice on it , i suggest you discard the rest. Strength to you . Hope you keep posting

Anger is a primary emotion and is known as a “moral emotion” thanks to the research of Haidt and others. Righteous anger after infidelity is normal and intuitive and typically not a cover for other feelings. It is a healthy basic moral response.

This comports with the Aristotelian view of anger as a virtuous response.

I like what Julia Cameron has written about anger:

Anger is fuel. We feel it and we want to do something. Hit someone, break something, throw a fit, smash a fist into the wall, tell those bastards. But we are nice people, and what we do with our anger is stuff it, deny it, bury it, block it, hide it, lie about it, medicate it, muffle it, ignore it. We do everything but listen to it. Anger is meant to be listened to. Anger is a voice, a shout, a plea, a demand…. We are meant to use anger as a fuel to take the actions we need to move where our anger points us. With a little thought, we can usually translate the message that our anger is sending us.

If you shove your anger aside or try to bury it, then you’ll just get what Archbishop Desmond Tutu called superficial healing which leads to what he called superficial reconciliation. I think he knew what he was talking about.

Think about it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:32 AM, October 19th (Monday)]

True Thumos, but reacting to important situations from anger is seldom a good idea.

What I think Siracha is alluding to is that some of the advice offered is based on the posters anger at their situations being reflected in their advice or comments.

What is clear is that the original poster does not feel this intense anger.

What I think Siracha is alluding to is that some of the advice offered is based on the posters anger at their situations being reflected in their advice or comments.

What is clear is that the original poster does not feel this intense anger.

Good point.

(Sorry we cross posted and I added a little more to the post above right after I typed it.)

I’m a little worried OP will feel this intense anger again since it sounds like he tried to shove it aside. When that happens he will want to shove it aside again.

What sisoon always points out is you have to process this and acknowledge it. The only way is through it. I also think the anger is trying to tell OP something and he needs to at least give it a seat at the table — not let it overwhelm or dominate.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:39 AM, October 19th (Monday)]

Is the other betrayed spouse aware of this lengthy affair your wife had with her husband?

Frankly I don’t see a reason for Westway’s pessimistic post and think posts of that genre are more likely to make new betrayed posters run away from this site. Just because someone doesn’t accept our “truths” as gospel right away doesn’t make him a lost cause.

I don't really feel my post is pessimistic. I think it is pragmatic, and it is something that OP needs to think about. I don't think it is wrong to propose a viewpoint that fosters contemplation of the future. Right now OP is reacting. He has not had time to absorb the enormity of what has happened to him and set a course for the future.

I didn't write that post on a kneejerk impulse. I bet I have read hundreds of posts on various marriage and infidelity websites dealing with this same issue of spouses learning of affairs that occurred decades earlier and doing their best to push on hoping to put the past behind them, only to cave in to despair years later. And I do hope this does not happen to OP. I'm not wishing it on him.

Look, folks.. just because Mr. mrplspls's spouse could have possibly have had sex with her ex-boss during a window that (maybe) coincides with or overlaps her pregnancy, doesn't automatically make his children not his. Based on his statements it seems as if she was pregnant a year after their last tryst.. admittedly it's hard to see the timeline based upon anecdotal evidence. At this stage, what will the DNA process serve? Do the children look like the OP? Likely they are his. The are also adults right now.. this didn't happen last week, as painful and fresh as this situation is now. All they know is the life mrsplspls and his wife have given them over the years. Maybe they don't want to know the answer to that question. They can't exactly be compelled now.

I agree that it's a giant leap to assume DNA testing is required, unless there's a question that needs answering at this stage.

What are you comfortable with at this stage, mrplspls? Do you even think that you might need to find out if your kids are yours or not? You've been their dad in every way that matters since they were born. What do you think asking them to be tested will do now? I don't really get a read on what you want to do next.. I sympathize with you feeling like your marriage was built on a deception, but what do you want to do next? If you are aiming at reconciliation, you might want to know what your forgiving and at that point you may decide that figuring out the DNA of your kids, or polygraphing your wife might be important. The thing is that's up to you. As well versed as we all are in betrayal, we're just internet strangers with some well informed opinions at the end of the day.

I didn't write that post on a kneejerk impulse. I bet I have read hundreds of posts on various marriage and infidelity websites dealing with this same issue of spouses learning of affairs that occurred decades earlier and doing their best to push on hoping to put the past behind them, only to cave in to despair years later. And I do hope this does not happen to OP. I'm not wishing it on him.

Happens all the time. In fact we see it here on SI frequently enough we should be asking why this happens.

Thank you Bigger for injecting cold hard sanity into the discussion . i hope the OP is still here and reading your posts and CTea s

Thumos I think truth and reconciliation which you have alluded to on the past is absolutely the right way to process group anger / trauma. But to continue the parallel - group anger doesn't always lead to T and R , sometimes it leads to genocide

God/ universe /Zeus grant us all the wisdom to know the difference between healthy and unhealthy anger .

My take as a naturally angry person is that people should be honest with themselves and process the anger they have in a healthy way . We shouldn't ramp up every other wronged person on the presumption that they should be alot angrier and if they arent then they are in denial . Sometimes the other persons responses may just be alot more healthy than our own

If you don't want to make the DNA test "obvious" get everyone 23andMe for Christmas. It automatically tests familial relationships and it has a bunch of other useful information about your genetic markers.

But to continue the parallel - group anger doesn't always lead to T and R , sometimes it leads to genocide

Why I keep bringing up Tutu. He was clear about handling anger appropriately within the truth and reconciliation process. And I think it’s important to distinguish between the moral emotion of anger as a primary emotion in response to something unjust or immoral, and something like unjustified resentment (which is what you were alluding fo with the genocide example) - anyway feels like we are drifting into t/j territory.

EDIT TO ADD: unjustified resentment and scapegoating is more often what WS’s do than what BS’s do, and we actually have a study in contrasts “baked in” to adultery and the aftermath. The justified moral emotion of anger a BS feels is healthy and normal, especially if the BS feels it and doesn’t use it as a drive for unhealthy behavior. The “anger” a WS feels is more often a series of self centered justifications stacked on each other that actually seems have some similarities to groupthink around scapegoating.

Sometimes the other persons responses may just be alot more healthy than our own

I think anger is a very healthy response. There’s a lot of psychoanalytical flotsam and jetsam about anger. Broadly speaking, Psychoanalysis has lately been repudiated and Freud’s theories have been found to be pseudoscience.

The point is OP should not deny or bury his anger or hope to sweep it aside. It will need to be dealt with or it will come back tenfold - as we often read about here on SI.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:06 PM, October 19th (Monday)]

To keep this on topic , i will re iterate that even in the midst of his own pain the OP seems to have a healthier ( not less healthy ) take than people who have not been personally betrayed by his wife

There are two types of medical studies - analytical ( hard science) and observational ( soft science)

Here is the hard science on anger - any layman can understand this - anger causes premature heart disease / hypertension / ulcers etc . In other words Anger is in fact NOT healthy by any measure of hard science

As for the soft sciences like psychology , they are best left to a persons therapist . Some amount of anger is probably healthy. While I am not qualified to debunk Freud or Jung its obvious even to a layman that they did say some really bizarre things. That being said those guys are still quoted daily by people who know a lot more than I do . Again , best left to a therapist .

[This message edited by siracha at 1:35 PM, October 19th (Monday)]

Now this is actually a thread jack but yes hard science has debunked Freud and the offshoots of it. Jungian theory doesn’t need to be debunked because it’s not really purporting to be anything but mysticism.

Jungian theory doesn’t need to be debunked because it’s not really purporting to be anything but mysticism.

Give it some credit. It did introduce notions like "Jungian Archetypes" and "Collective Unconsciousness" into the dialogue, which sounds massively impressive at parties.

I certainly hope the OP hasn't bailed on this thread once he saw Freud being debunked. Everyone has their own threshold.

[This message edited by KingofNothing at 4:37 PM, October 19th (Monday)]