SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Agree 100 percent faithfulman.

There's a lot of conflating that seems to happen in discussions about what a BH/BW should do.

-Conflating healing with reconciliation.

-Conflating loving your WS with reconciliation

-Conflating forgiving your WS with reconciliation.

These are all separate things, and any or all of them can be done separated or divorced as easily (some would argue more easily) than trying to *reconcile.*

You can heal away from your spouse, and some experts would urge a therapeutic separation at the very least.

You can love an abusive spouse but still understand you need to be away from them. And adultery is abuse.

You can forgive your unfaithful spouse, but still see a clear path to a life without them.

That doesn't mean people should not reconcile, just that they need to go into it with their eyes wide open.

mrplspls:

You will experience some up days and out of the blue down days. Your main question here seems to be how can I heal from this latest revelation. If I understand correctly you are not looking to dump your WW or divorce. As you have indicated in other posts, you feel your WW has been a devoted partner for thirty two years. But she lied to you about her A early in your M and did not come clean until recently.

How you process the pain from this revelation is totally up to you. It’s your life. Take the advice you can use and leave the rest. Take your time to really heal from this revelation. This is not a race. Ask your WW any questions you need answered. You will heal on your own schedule. We are all different. Much depends on your WW’s actions and attitude. Is she attuned to your pain. Is she empathetic. Does she respond to your questions without defensiveness. You also need to take care of you. Get IC if necessary. Good luck.

Does the pain ease?

Yes. Once you start healing the pain starts easing. This is just like a physical wound – if you tend to it you heal. If you don’t or ignore it the wound festers.

What can I do to ease it?

Either remove the cause of the pain (divorce) or work at recovery with your wife. That recovery IMHO needs to be from a base of truth. We have already spent about 8 pages emphasizing the truth, although we argue over what it is and/or how to get it. To me you need a truth you can accept as true. You could decide to take your WW at face-value or you could follow the suggestion of backing up the discovery-phase with a poly.

What can she do to ease it?

Tell you the truth. Realize that her biggest loss and the biggest risk to the marriage now is for you to find out something (even minor) by yourself some months from now – after she insists you know all.

we do?

Communicate. Trust. Listen. Appreciate. Work as a team.

Time frame of my suffering is sought....

If you rug-sweep? Forever.

I think that you have a different position than most, and therefore the healing can take a shorter period. If your discovery confirms that this was her only affair then you can build a lot on the last 3 decades. That could help you two in recover.

However… I think we need about 2 years to recover from major traumas. Irrespective of the marriage. Just us personally.

mrplspls,

Situations like yours are always complicated, because they are so different from discovering an affair while it is happening, and making a decision at that point in your lives.

If you could rewind to 1987/1988, and you had discovered the full extent of things, what do you think you would have done?

The reason I ask is because although you have just found out that you survived an affair that you did not realize had happened (until recently), you would like to see if the marriage can be saved and continued. That is no different to people who have just discovered a 'live' affair, and who want to try to reconcile.

The big difference for you is that you cannot break up with your wife as she was back in 1987/1988. You are no longer who you were back then, she is no longer who she was, and you have three decades and children that have occurred after the affair.

Back in the day, you could have decided to stay with your wife in the knowledge of what she had done, or parted with before the relationship went any further.

The thing is, while the knee-jerk reaction to infidelity is to think 'divorce' and 'death to cheaters', the fact is that a lot of people who think they would take the nuclear option if infidelity occurs actually try to reconcile.

So even if we could press a button and zap you back to 1988, you might have been very hurt, but you might have chosen to try and make things work with your wife.

If she could tell you back then that she wanted out of the marriage, and hint about her feelings for her boss, and you turned away from the implications of those revelations, the chances are that you would have tried to reconcile with her back then.

If you pile thirty years of a marriage that you have enjoyed, and the building of a family, on top of that, your decision is not so much, "Do I end the marriage now before anything else bad happens?" as it is, "Do I blow up what I have now because I think I might have done it before I had all this?"

My gut feeling from your story is that your wife may have been too immature to live up to the responsibilities of marriage, and she projected a lot of unwarranted good qualities onto an older man who sold her enough bullshit and snake-oil to get what he wanted before he left town.

And like anyone who has bought into a used-car salesman telling them that the car they want to buy was only used occasionally by a sweet old lady to drive a mile to church every Sunday, it is not so much a clever con-job as a person deluding themselves to an obvious steaming pile of horse-feathers because they want to believe it.

So why did your wife go that route? That is something that she has to answer.

However, even if she was minded to check out of the marriage back in 1987/1988 because she had drunk the kool-aid that her boss offered her, reality kicked her behind in a big way when Superman left town, proving to her that their great 'love' was worth considerably less to him that it was to her.

Do you think that taught her a lesson? Is it possible that she saw how stupid she had been, and that she decided to try and make a go of the marriage and not stray again?

Is it also possible that when she decided to recommit, things evolved over the years into a real and true relationship, even if the affair that preceded it was buried?

People emerge from jail resolved to never go back. What if your wife realized what a mess she had made, and resolved to not do something so dumb again?

Is it coincidence that your wife's idea about leaving the marriage evaporated as soon as her boss left town? It seems to me that she was just a younger woman being played by an older man when she had built him into a fantasy figure that he never was.

When a woman is absorbed in the self-destructive building of a low-life opportunist into Superman, how can a real man compete with that? No man, and no woman, can compete with a delusional fantasy. Unfortunately, countless affairs happen because otherwise sensible people put a rat on a pedestal.

As you struggle to find positives in your situation, I think you should consider that once your wife understood that she had been played for a fool, she wanted the solid reality and honesty that you offered, and that she no longer wanted to look for fool's gold.

The stupid trap she entered willingly thirty years ago should not devalue everything that the two of you have built after that train got derailed. Just as a person walking out of prison can go on to build a solid and worthwhile life, someone who cheats can go on to build a solid and genuine life.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: what the two of you have built together after the affair ended is not false or a lie. It is as real and solid as any other couple who have spent thirty years having kids and getting through life together.

And I would think that all of that adds up to far more of real value and worth than a young woman believing the nonsense peddled by an older opportunist.

Blowing things up at this point will not change what happened back then, but it will impact on your future, your wife's future, and your kids' futures. It will not impact on your wife's AP at all.

So ask yourself if parting with your wife is going to achieve anything of any benefit for you or those you love, or if it will be a pyrrhic victory that costs you more more than it costs the AP.

It seems like the past thirty years have been good prior to your discovery of the affair, and that will only have happened because you and your wife get on well and want to be together.

Is it possible that parting with your wife now could prevent more years of what you have had for the past thirty years, while changing nothing that happened back in the 1980s?

If so, it is worth sticking together and toughing it out. It is not easy, and it is not fast, but if it both of you want it, you can make it work. Unless you have a burning urge to call it quits and go, it is worth trying reconciliation and seeing how it goes.

M1965 - I agree with everything you posted above with 2 exceptions...

If he knows he would've left her back then had he known about her straying and then deciding to keep him as her fallback plan, then how does he not see his entire life with her since as being built on lies? He was cheated out of the chance of having a life with someone that hadn't already cheated.

Contrarily, if he knows he would've stayed with her, then there is no feeling of being cheated.

The second thing is...can we stop acting like his poor, young wife was used by a manipulative player? She was grown. She chose to cheat. The only person that played her was herself.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 4:57 AM, October 23rd (Friday)]

Apologies for a thread-jack, but as a direct question was asked:

If he knows he would've left her back then had he known about her straying and then deciding to keep him as her fallback plan, then how does he not see his entire life with her since as being built on lies? He was cheated out of the chance of having a life with someone that hadn't already cheated.

Contrarily, if he knows he would've stayed with her, then there is no feeling of being cheated.

The 'built on lies' perspective causes problems, because it suggests that nothing genuine can have happened in the relationship after the affair ended, which may not be the case if the wife did change her outlook and commit fully to the marriage and abandon her wayward lifestyle.

Personally speaking, I hate lack of disclosure, and I totally understand the issue of non-disclosure robbing a betrayed spouse of their agency.

However, in this case, Mrplspls said that back in 1987/1988 his wife made offhand comments about loving her boss and wanting out of the marriage. Mrplspls did not pursue those remarks, which as it turned out were like the tips of an iceberg above the surface of the water, with much more unseen below the waterline.

Perhaps it was odd that she made such unguarded remarks, which may have been an honest disclosure of her state of mind at the time, if not the full extent of her betrayal. Remarks like that could have triggered World War 3.

The significant thing is that Mrplspls did not investigate them, suggesting that he had no desire to discover something worse that could end the marriage, and that his agency decision at the time was to continue the marriage and leave the matter behind.

So rather than a basis in lies, there was partial disclosure, and a decision not to dig any deeper. Whether there would have been honesty if the matter had been pursued can never be known, but I am sure we all assume how that would have gone.

The point is, full disclosure was neither offered nor requested at the time, and it was Mrplspls's decision to proceed in the marriage on that basis.

On the second point, I believe that many waywards brainwash themselves rather than being hypnotized by some svengali affair partner, hence my comments about the wife's delusions and choice to put a rat on a pedestal.

The only suspicion/assumption I have is that as the WW declared attachment for the AP, and a desire to leave the marriage, she had some plan to have a future with the AP. It is possible that he did nothing to dissuade her from that, because if he had conclusively ruled it out, she would have been less keen to leave the marriage she chose to stay in once the AP left town.

However, that is conjecture on my part. What is clear is that the plan crashed and burnt, which suggests that it did not come from the AP.

As I say, I believe that a lot of unfaithful spouses delude and brainwash themselves into the condition that is often referred to as 'the fog'.

Considering the marriage continued for more than three decades after the wife emerged from her fog, it is quite possible that she emerged a different, wiser person, with a different perspective on where her future lay.

Just as we consider the issue of Mrplspls's agency at the time, it is valid to consider the wife's agency.

She could have left the marriage anyway, regardless of the AP moving away, but she chose to stay and build a life and family with her husband for three decades. That suggests genuine commitment, and a change of heart, and I would hate for Mrplspls to feel like nothing that happened after that bad time was genuine.

It seems to me that she was just a younger woman being played by an older man when she had built him into a fantasy figure that he never was.

Poor little girl lost in the woods. I consider myself a feminist and want to give adult women more credit than this.

If he knows he would've left her back then had he known about her straying and then deciding to keep him as her fallback plan, then how does he not see his entire life with her since as being built on lies? He was cheated out of the chance of having a life with someone that hadn't already cheated.

He did know she strayed back then and they both rugswept. She told him right then and there and he chose not to listen.

offhand comments about loving her boss and wanting out of the marriage.

Offhand comments? Really? Does this ring true to anyone who has been in a marriage?

The significant thing is that Mrplspls did not investigate them, suggesting that he had no desire to discover something worse that could end the marriage, and that his agency decision at the time was to continue the marriage and leave the matter behind.

So rather than a basis in lies, there was partial disclosure, and a decision not to dig any deeper.

This is rugsweeping

Can we also be unvarnished in saying that narcissists who deploy plan A/plan B strategies stay in their plan B marriages all the time because it suits them and their selfish needs, not because they love plan B.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:29 AM, October 23rd (Friday)]

The 'built on lies' perspective causes problems, because it suggests that nothing genuine can have happened in the relationship after the affair ended, which may not be the case if the wife did change her outlook and commit fully to the marriage and abandon her wayward lifestyle.

The reason it "causes problems", is because it is true. One may genuinely feel certain positive feelings for another after a betrayal, but there is always the betrayal that will eventually spoil the purity of that feeling.

For example:

1) You and I decide to start a business together.

2) We both need to contribute $100,000 to launch the business

3) I steal $120,000 from your savings, contribute my $100,000 into the business using those funds and "party" with your spouse with the other $20,000

4) After that I never do anything like that again!

5) We both work hard on the business, and it grows to be both successful and sustainable, supporting our families and others.

6) During that time you and I have a lot of great bonding experiences together, we go through ups and downs of life together

7) I like you a bunch

8) You like me a bunch

9) Finally, I tell you I stole from you and partied with your spouse just when we were getting our partnership started, but only after I was certain that your investment into our venture was so great that disentangling yourself from it would difficult, emotionally, financially, and would also negatively affect a great many other people.

***

So, what do you think? How genuine were our shared experiences while I held the knowledge of betraying you?

I mean, they actually happened, for sure. But at all times I held knowledge of betraying you.

My feeling - whatever happened did happen, and those feeling may have been "genuine" in the moment in that we felt whatever we felt at the time, but they also are not "true" as they should be in a partnership that is built on trust.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 11:01 AM, October 23rd (Friday)]

The psychologist we are working with has asked me to seek those who have suffered what I am suffering. To find the common humanity, to learn from those who have coped with this trauma AND since we are staying together, seek those who have kept their marriages.

Thank you everyone contributing their insights, thoughts and guidance.

You have been my common humanity.

I hope to address many of you, but I start with m1965 who wrote

So even if we could press a button and zap you back to 1988, you might have been very hurt, but you might have chosen to try and make things work with your wife.

This is at the heart of the matter. I think of the duality of our lives. On one hand I would have gone ballistic, been traumatically hurt and we probably would have spent some time apay rt. I think that we would have found a way to make things work, not just based on the reactions of we two, but on the many many friends of the marriage with family and friends.

My sister is best friends with my wife (and knows nothing of the infidelity). She would have been angrier than me that her best friend had done such a dirty to her brother. But healing would have been in her heart.

My wife's stepfather was a judge and had presided over our wedding. Not the sort of man who would have just shrugged his shoulders and let the split happen. He would have felt a duty to patch things up.

And to this day, due to late mother in law, I have never told a. mother in law joke. She was my biggest fan and would have been another factor in bringing us back together.

So I do look back, take my initial logical reaction into account, but don't think it would have been the final word.

faithful man wrote

My feeling - whatever happened did happen, and those feeling may have been "genuine" in the moment in that we felt whatever we felt at the time, but they also are not "true" as they should be in a partnership that is built on trust.

So much of this I agree with, yet want to bring in another aspect. My wife made a huge mistake and then compounded it by going to him many times in two short periods of time.

There is some evidence that "cheating" or PA can have a life of their own, a feeling of secrecy and remove from everyday life, even an addictive quality.

Could my wife have been drawn in by the OM and then found herself turning on herself? Hating herself for what she had done, lacking the courage to tell the truth AND lacking the courage to leave the marriage.

She has admitted to me that she preferred the version of her that I blindly knew, loved, adored and wanted to have children with. She hated herself as the cheater and my rug sweeping choices made me the best place to be, the best man for her and the best road to a good life...

Thoughts?

M1965 doesn’t post too often. I wish he did more, because his posts tend to be logical and well thought through. I hope he guides you along and I would take note of what he says.

I agree with him on what he shares, maybe because in some ways it’s a better understanding and portrayal of what I have been trying to allude at. The big difference is emphasis more than content – I think you need a base of truth to reconcile from, but I truly thing that if you have that you can utilize the long, assumed faithful marriage to build on.

You will get the argument about biology. If it were true there wouldn’t be much of a Reconciliation forum here. It would be more of a Submissive forum for how to train our spouse for the correct role.

Personally, I think the reason we aren’t surprised when a horse takes a dump on Main Street during a parade is because we know it’s a horse. It’s controlled by impulses and needs. If the trombone player in the marching band did the same… THAT would be the talk of the town. We expect more precisely because although he might be controlled by nature (the need to take a dump) he can control his nature enough to go to the closest bathroom.

M1965 is also one of my favorite posters so i urge you to read his words a few times and consider it strongly along with all the other good advice you are getting here.

I will still strongly add another aspect to the conversation though. Yes considering the truth on how things have been since she broke ties with the POSOM all those years ago and thinking about what you may or may not have done all those years ago is a very good thing to do and take into consideration.

But something I wrote you very early on in this thread is still a big factor in whether or not you can truly get thru this and lead a good life with her the remaining decades you have.

And to add, if she wants to be a part of that journey, she needs to stand right by your side and be as furious with that version of herself back then as you are. She needs to take all the uninhibited anger and hurt that you throw at her and absolutely agree that she was a “piece of shit” back then who cares only about herself and not you at all.

She needs to truly be all in on understanding the pain and devastation these revelations have caused you. She can’t just white knuckle it and dismiss them. She has to be seen as “leading the charge” in condemning who she was and what she did back then.

I am not sure you have written much about that. I’ll go back and see.

You can rationalize and work thru the pain all you want, but if she is not providing complete honesty and transparency about what she did and showing now how it truly disgusts her and can express empathy and her own heartbreak over how it has impacted you so negatively, then I don’t have high hopes for you getting thru this with your relationship rebuilt.

So please don’t dismiss this aspect of the affair and it’s ramifications. Actively discuss this with her and let her know that if you can’t see, hear and feel this type of things from her that I describe above, that perhaps it’s best you two start to detach and go your separate ways.

Please consider what I write and think about how it applies to your situation.

Thanks

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:05 AM, October 24th (Saturday)]

The psychologist we are working with has asked me to seek those who have suffered what I am suffering. To find the common humanity, to learn from those who have coped with this trauma AND since we are staying together, seek those who have kept their marriages.

Thank you everyone contributing their insights, thoughts and guidance.

You have been my common humanity.

At some point in the future, you might also consider Retrouvaille. But that would probably only be after your WW has demonstrated deep repentance and has been fully truthful and transparent with you.

It has Catholic roots, but is perfectly acceptable for non-Catholics, non-Christians, etc.

My wife made a huge mistake and then compounded it by going to him many times in two short periods of time.

And then lying about it for three decades and depriving you of autonomy and agency as a free person.

She has admitted to me that she preferred the version of her that I blindly knew, loved, adored and wanted to have children with. She hated herself as the cheater and my rug sweeping choices made me the best place to be, the best man for her and the best road to a good life...

Thoughts?

She sounds like a deeply selfish, self-involved, self-regarding and entitled person -- but that is just my take. This would take a lot of deep therapy work to root out.

You asked, though. Just my opinion.

My wife made a huge mistake

This was not a mistake. You're doing a deep disservice to yourself and your ultimate happiness by falling into the trap of using language like this. I hope you can begin to see that this is the language of rugsweeping.

mrplspls

The psychologist we are working with has asked me to seek those who have suffered what I am suffering. To find the common humanity, to learn from those who have coped with this trauma AND since we are staying together, seek those who have kept their marriages

While seeking wisdom from those BSs who chose to stay may be wise, don't miss out on the wisdom that can be offered by those who chose to move on too.

It will be up to you to decide what is useful to you and what is not useful to you leave behind.

Fooled 13 years, thank you.

Understood. I may sound sure of my path on this forum, but the hurt and the pain and the turmoil does sometimes have me hanging by a thread.

Infidelity isn’t a mistake — it’s a series of deliberate, calculated CHOICES.

That’s where the pain is coming from mrplspls — if you didn’t love her, it wouldn’t hurt so much.

The road back has to include your wife UNDERSTANDING the pain she has caused and is causing you today. You can’t rebuild anything until you’re certain of what YOU are being asked to accept. As well as your wife fully owning her choices.

If you leave it half-way on discovery, and don’t ask all the questions in your head or leave her any excuses for those choices, the pain will increase over time — like any un-treated injury.

It’s difficult to heal the marriage, but possible if you make sure your wife is confronting her issues that led her choices.