SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Sounds like a rational, well thought out plan. It keeps a small window for a chance of reconciliation(her biggest concern), and it gives you some protection of your business and some physical distance to clear your head(what seems to be your biggest concerns). I'm sure there are a few 'compromises' on both sides of the table that neither of quite fond of, but all in all, you both seem to think that this is a workable solution....for now. If you are okay with this, then that is what matters.

As for why she is pushing sooo hard for MC? My opinion is the simplest one---the initial thought process is that it is the immediate go-to solution for trying to fix a marriage in crisis. I would bet that more than 75% of the newly betrayed that initially come here distraught and lost are reaching out for SOMETHING that can help the situation. "MARRIAGE COUNSELING!!! THAT'S IT!!!! IT HAS GOT TO WORK!!!!" But as it has been suggested here, in most cases, MC is the exact opposite of what is needed, due to the wayward mindset that has to be dealt with.

So I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that is why your WW is pushing so hard for it. You can call it manipulation, because she is trying to achieve a result(reconciliation), but it doesn't have to have a sinister motive attached to it. You can take this viewpoint for what it's worth.

This is such good advice here, AH. Arm yourself with the FULL ARMOR of Scriptural truth and authority. That pastor is not a mediator. There is only ONE mediator.

My only problem with this, Thumos, is that AHguy will never catch up to either his WW or the pastor when it comes to scripture. He will be playing on an uneven field. If it were me, I would put that right at the front BEFORE I went into any discussions. "Pastor, I simply can't and WON'T approach counselling from a basis of scripture. I know right and wrong. I know what I believe I can and cannot accept. I will participate with an open mind, but if I feel I am being forced to do something I do not believe in, specifically from a religious sense, I will make it known."

[This message edited by jb3199 at 10:21 AM, August 28th (Friday)]

You have a pretty good game plan in mind IMO

Juat remember part of her game plan is to push your boundaries and whether pastor is aware or not he is part of that plan . Please make sure you push back . Dont let her make this meeting about forgiveness , this meeting is about your not catching stds and her acknowledging not only the adultery but also the sneering contempt of her marriage to please a third person ( AP) probably for sex and money( the promise of a moneyed future at least)

I know its not in your natural character but please make the visit embarrassing for her , thats the only way she will stop badgering you into church based manipulative meetings . If you are “nice” in the first visit you are opening a very sick door

Try this

“ i am absolutely not here to discuss my forgiveness or her self serving need to be forgiven . I would like to know why her faith wasnt enough to keep her from adultery . She seems to think religion AND your partnership is a shield to hide her from her consequences , are you going to challenge that view ? . What im asking is does she need to find another less permissive church to become a more responsible person “

[This message edited by siracha at 2:41 PM, August 28th (Friday)]

As far as confessing sins and being forgiven-fine.

However, being forgiven by Jesus is for her benefit for eternity and it absolutely does not preclude consequences happening in her time left on earth. People don't always make that distinction, but it is obviously important to realize.

AH

As long as she keeps making demand she is still trying to be in control. The MCs we got was a waste of time. She is still not looking out for you. She is making a demand for MC? There is no M, she killed it the first time she spread her legs for the OM. And you still don't know if she had any other men. She can't date anyone, but she is binding you up too. She already dated someone. When I said she might be becoming a candidate for R, I thought she was giving over control now she's just negotiating for a better deal. Even if she signs off on the separation agreement, how can you know know she is staying to it. She already signed an agreement with you before. The day you got married. She has hesitation on what you say you will do? She is the one that didn't keep her word! She knows her word is worth nothing so she is projecting on to you that there's no trust. Don't be fooled she is NOT as overwhelmed as she pretends. Her wanting the pastor concernes me because she is having him try to manipulate you. You could tell her that you would tell the pastor ALL the details of her A before he starts so he isn't under any lack of knowledge as he tries to convince you to R. Ask her if she still wants to go to the pastor. While yes R is possible, there are always consequences(make sure you know ALL you need to know) and if you want to eat the sh** sandwich she has made, I suppose you. If this is the easiest way out and keep you business and your attorney says this is the best way,then becarfull and don't let her trap you. I support you. Stand strong you can make it. You are the prize.

I'm afraid this won't happen. I had to agree just to get the settlement going. finding then scheduling an IC will delay things.

AHGuy, you're still negotiating WITHOUT much information and without asking the tough questions, why are you giving her so many concessions at this point? If she was truly remorseful she would NOT be negotiating with you as hard as she is, after a 2 year LTA she's still demonstrating that she's a business woman first instead of a remorseful WW, the poly and the timeline have been suggested repeatedly and you don't even mention it during these talks ? you asked about an "appropriate time" to bring this up, this is precisely the best time, how can you commit to all this without having more info to make informed decisions ? you seem to be walking on eggshells during these "negotiations" while your WW prepares the church cavalry/MC to go full force to get you to commit to R.

what a seperation means for us

1- break from each other to evalute

2- No dating other people

3- we will keep communicating via text or phone and face to face every 2 weeks.

4- she will start a secular IC as soon as possible ( she is making phone calls)

5- She demanded a MC, first she wanted it now with her pastor, after days of going back an forth I agreed to meet with him once and promised a MC with a secular therapist only if progress have been made 6 months from now and D was on the back burner. this is one of the subjects that's holding us up.

Again she's driving a tough and very hard "bargain" so much for remorse and "Jesus being at the steering wheel", but anyway IMHO that seems to be an agreeable list but it should include these items:

#8 (STD test).

[This message edited by Buster123 at 10:50 AM, August 28th (Friday)]

"Pastor, I simply can't and WON'T approach counselling from a basis of scripture. I know right and wrong. I know what I believe I can and cannot accept. I will participate with an open mind, but if I feel I am being forced to do something I do not believe in, specifically from a religious sense, I will make it known."

Also really excellent advice. We can arm you against the usual pastoral tricks, (and it's a shame we have to do that, but too many pastors enable adultery nowadays) but just cutting it off before it starts would probably work better. In fact you could go further and say you're not there to confuse forgiveness with reconciliation, and you won't participate in blameshifting and rugsweeping at all. Anything at all that gives a whiff of that in the meeting you make it clear you will politely end the meeting.

Thumos,

...too many pastors enable adultery nowadays...

And I might add - too many pastors are adulterers themselves. It is rampant in Southern Baptist Convention churches. I agree with everyone else. Take this dude with a HUGE chunk of sodium chloride.

AH, if you feel you must go to the pastoral mtg before timeline and polygraph (and I don't think you should) then just say any detailed discussions are going to be fruitless until your WW completes the timeline and passes the polygraph

Apache

I agree with your post entirely but i also think Ah needs to clarify that a mere 2 months after the sex the lies the contempt he is in no rush to forgive or even discuss forgiveness

I do believe he should forgive her but thats not the first priority. First priority is to maintain boundaries through calling her out on her manipulative bullshit

He should continue to insist that her behavior over the next 2-5 yrs determines how much he can forgive her and she doesnt get to set the timeline and she needs her to drop the “ lets forgive me because after all i am crying and i already said I gave Jesus back the wheel -even the pastor thinks i am adorable - Check mate sucker “ performance .

[This message edited by siracha at 4:01 PM, August 28th (Friday)]

Hi AH

I have been thinking about you and pray for you and your wife everyday but due to the volume of great posts and advice, I have not posted.

The separation agreement is what I have said was needed all along. I hope it is enforceable, if things go south in the next several months.

I am so glad you are trying to save your business. My brother operates his HVAC completely out of trucks and a very small office and warehouse (It is mostly to get away from his wife LOL, he can sleep there) He has the advantage of a very good supplier in town.

I am confused as to why she is aiming to get the property that seems so important to you. If you can not afford it how will she?

The next many months away from her will allow you the time to make a good decision and find the truth.

For an off the wall comment - can you sue the AP for anything? Alienation, the five million dollars he owes you from the repair trip to be with your wife, loss of business due to the affair?

Can the recovery of the loss of business be put into the separation agreement to make it stand up better, if things go south? She lost money, that was marital property and so did you, due to the affair.

I do believe that your wife could become a good person and is R material. That does not mean you should R. BE SELFISH please! She could also end up with AP, you will learn so much in upcoming months.

She demanded a MC

I hope it wasn't a "demand" she is in no place to demand anything and this would show a WW mindset without remorse.

You are a true prize of a man AH! Are you sure you don't what the opportunity to date in the next six months? I thought she already offered some kind of a "hall pass". She has been dating for many years probably with more than the AP.

This separation also puts you with the boys, I think that may be the best part! Enjoy them, teach them and love them.

Hope you have some plans to get away this weekend. Fishing maybe? hell getting sick on a boat bets the hell out of this shit sandwich you have been served.

Respectfully,

Organic2003

[This message edited by Organic2003 at 12:12 PM, August 28th, 2020 (Friday)]

Siracha

Let me clarify, I'm not suggesting AH necessarily forgive in the context his wife or pastor are suggesting.

AH's WW is bringing her church into the equation and I'm sure her confessing and being forgiven is going to be a point if it isn't already.

I just want AH to be clear her being forgiven by Jesus has little to do with her earthly consequences, but has to do with her being forgiven in eternity and if forgiveness is being pushed on him, he can remind everyone what forgiveness really means.

If there is to be MC, the pastor needs to come to the house to do it. When I go to church (Catholic), I go there knowing that my pastor is the authority in that establishment and is the intercessor and agent of God. So when I go there I have to go knowing that I must abide by very specific rules and treat the pastor with respect, as a man who is above me spiritually. If you make the pastor come to the house, you level the playing field a little more. He has to show respect to you as the head of the household.

AH I think your WW has a subconscious need to dominate you. She likes it even more when she has other men dominate you. She always has to have a man on her side when she is dealing with you. See a pattern here? She is too scared to deal with you on her own, or with a female counselor, but she will work with you if she has another man in the room. Not only does it make here feel safer so she can feel free to spout her nonsense, but she also feels protected by the other man.

Just a theory...

[This message edited by Westway at 1:23 PM, August 28th (Friday)]

Hi friend,

You've got a plan and that sounds great.

The next parts are to get them signed and enforceable.

After that, do what you wish.

I'm going to disagree with everyone here, but I wouldn't care about going to the MC with the pastor or someone secular if she gives you the enforceable separation agreement. It's a deal. No one is going to be 100% happy with it. But, you should stick to your end of the deal. If she wants to see an aroma therapist... go with it. It just takes X amount of your day, but it won't hurt you.

Remember, she's the mother of your kids. You're going to have to deal with her no matter what you decide to do. Say, for example, one of your kids is getting married. Do you want that to be some awkward day where they have to plan out where to seat the both of you? What about college graduation dinners and such? With the kids, that's going to be the thing. You either make all the events in their life awkward or you learn to get along with her. So, if she wants to do something like MC with a pastor... what does it matter? You're showing you'll meet her halfway, but you don't have to agree with it.

The important things here are that your business won't be impacted, that your assets are secure and that you can get some time away for some real contemplation of how you want this thing to look going forward. And, it looks like you have a solid plan.

My advice... let her be her. Let her be 100% who she wants to be. You can't micromanage it. You can't force her to do something. You don't want to give her guidance of who you want her to be. She has to be HER.

And you have to be YOU.

Where you go once you get the assets split, and both of you have the freedom to be who you want to be, and the confidence to be who you want to be... then see where it goes. It could be impossible to continue a relationship. It could get better. No one knows the outcome. But, once both people have the freedom to be who they want to be, and they become those people, then you can look to see what you want out of a relationship, or if you want a relationship, with that other person.

I'd just say to get the separation agreement done. Then, after that's done, say that to consider reconciliation, you need to know the whole truth and that can be backed up with a polygraph. Then take your time to see what you want to do, and what she wants to do.

She may get the agreement signed and go wild with the exuberance of a high schooler, or she might become who you thought she was. She can only do that when she has freedom to be who she wants to be and the distance to realize it. You can only determine who YOU want to be with distance and knowledge.

Again, I wouldn't start relationships at this time, date or have sex. I'd relax, hang with friends, do some gym time and just let your mind take a break. Work hard and build up your business. Check in with her every now and then and see what you can, but mostly just focus on you and what you need.

Letting her stay in the house, for now, may be a good idea for her and for the kids, and maybe for you. Being away from the memories and being truly on your own might be just what your mind needs to unwind.

So, to recap, your plan is great. Get everything signed off on. Lay out what you want her to do to consider reconciliation (consider) and then back off and see how she plays it.

You're doing great.

Don’t let’s be suggesting AH should start dating. For one thing he is still married.

For another, it would be unfair to any woman to do that. I know this happens all the time in today’s world, but it just isn’t right for an innocent person to be in a relationship with another who is in a tacit agreement that R might be on the table.

For another, do we all know for sure that he does not have an std?

For another, can there be any doubt it will be used like a cudgel by ww? That hall pass thing was not made in the way of a real offer, and even if it was, she will claim it was just talk.

For another, the man has been emotionally raped. There is no way he is ready to complicate his life further.

So can we stay away from encouraging him on this?

I understand why you agreed to meet with the Pastor.

IMO, you need to always exert control with your wife (for your mental health). In addition to you setting the time & place:

1 - IMO the right time to ask for a timeline (subject to a polygraph) is BEFORE meeting with the Pastor.

It's useless to 'talk' about a trauma when you don't know the full extent and timing of her betrayal.

And the Pastor (as an 'experienced' therapist) should know this.

Be prepared for a guilt trip and to feel like divorce is all your fault.

As experienced and successful sales/business woman, your wife doesn't sound frail or passive. Just the opposite.

IMO she insists you speak with the Pastor because she sees him as 'being on her side'.

She's obviously hoping that the Pastor will persuade you to stay married.

How about you first meet with the Pastor alone.

That helps keep his focus on you (the victim).

Then, you decide if meeting as a couple is worthwhile at this time.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 2:11 PM, August 28th (Friday)]

Absolutely agree on the not dating until you figure out what you want to do with the marriage. It'll just emotionally wreck you and the person you're with for that time.

If you make this deal with your wife - separation and asset split in return for marriage counseling and possibly trying again after the separation, then, as a man of your word (which you are) you should hold to your values. Keep your word on this and do it honestly.

This is a time where you don't have distractions, and dating is a distraction from moving through the internal pain this causes. It'll just cover it over, but the issues come out again eventually and it will prolong your pain.

Again, take this time to work on you and observe what she does. Don't complicate matters further. If it does not work out after the year, take some time to grieve the marriage before you even consider dating.

It may not feel like it but wow you’re handling this like an experienced, measured vet. Kudos!!