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AH,

Only you know what is best for you. I hope the six-month separation can give you the clarity you need to choose R or D and then move forward. I would agree with others. She should be doing everything possible for you instead of negotiating like you were and equal partner in the betrayal. As far as the pastor is concerned, BEWARE. You know he has only one agenda – to get you to forgive WW and get back together. Why do you think WW is pushing so hard for this????? Finally, WHEN are you going to start getting the answers to what went on in the two to three years before the A started? The general consensus here is there is much more to her infidelity than just this A. Good luck and stay strong.

Don’t let’s be suggesting AH should start dating. For one thing he is still married.

For another, it would be unfair to any woman to do that. I know this happens all the time in today’s world, but it just isn’t right for an innocent person to be in a relationship with another who is in a tacit agreement that R might be on the table.

For another, do we all know for sure that he does not have an std?

For another, can there be any doubt it will be used like a cudgel by ww? That hall pass thing was not made in the way of a real offer, and even if it was, she will claim it was just talk.

For another, the man has been emotionally raped. There is no way he is ready to complicate his life further.

So can we stay away from encouraging him on this?

Totally agree. AH your best approach the next six months is to go into monk mode, eat a lot of chicken broccoli and white rice, lift heavy weights a lot, drink lots of water, sleep, read a book like The Way of the Superior Man and spend time outdoors.

I agree with Robert, ask the tough questions and request the timeline NOW before you commit to anything else, either she's now being honest or she is not, her being honest and answering the questions should NOT be part of ANY negotiations, tell her that's the ONLY way you would even just consider to meet with the pastor, otherwise if she refuses to give you the answers and timeline (subject to a polygraph), then stop talking and file for D, you can always stop/delay it if she comes around and decides for once to give you what you need, in order for you to just CONSIDER listening to her and maybe agree to some of those things with NO guarantees.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 3:23 PM, August 28th (Friday)]

My wife and I are still negotiating terms of a separation, she wanted it to be just a verbal agreement without any legal weight, my lawyer advised against that and suggested one that could be incorporated into a Divorce decree should we go that route. It' is called "Marital Settlement Agreement." the problem is such a settlement requires a final agreement on terms if we go to D, things like spouse support, Kids custody assets division...ect and we are not agreeing yet. I won't bother you with the details of the legal part of this I know it is overwhelming. but to give you an idea on what the plan is , we'll be separated for 6 months I'm staying home with my sons she's moving out to her mom's at least the first month or two. she will still have access to the house but can't come without a notice and an approval. she already agreed to legally forfeit any rights to my business regardless if we D today or year from now.since the settlement requires us to have a plan for our properties I suggested we agree on selling them both after 6 months and split the profit 50/50 but she wants a way to keep the main house. I assured her that this was just a formality and I would not force her to sell if it comes to it she just has to take my word for it. so there is still a hesitation from her which is understandable she is as overwhelmed as me.

In a worst case scenario, I will have to find a permanent place to operate my business within the next 6 months which would involve many factors.

what a seperation means for us

1- break from each other to evalute

2- No dating other people

3- we will keep communicating via text or phone and face to face every 2 weeks.

4- she will start a secular IC as soon as possible ( she is making phone calls)

5- She demanded a MC, first she wanted it now with her pastor, after days of going back an forth I agreed to meet with him once and promised a MC with a secular therapist only if progress have been made 6 months from now and D was on the back burner. this is one of the subjects that's holding us up.

Wife doesn't want the separation but understands that she has no choice, she knows that I could file on the ground of adultery otherwise which I do not want to have to de. she was emotional when i told her that i didn't want to tag her with Adultery she cried, thanked me and said she didn't deserve my generosity. the separation is a good thing for me because it buys me time to save and keep my business, and to not rush to any decision. D can still be granted as the separation could be merged into the decree.

For her is also a time to settle down and focus on her issues

,

I think you've done spectacularly well. My biggest concern was that if too much time elapsed, you'd lose 'filing on grounds' as a negotiation tool. But it sounds like your attorney is doing a good job of making sure that your agreement will stand up to any challenge, so this will buy you time to get your mind and heart on the same page. Excellent work!

I wouldn't be overly concerned at the one meeting you agreed to make with the pastor. He doesn't have an magical powers of persuasion which could talk you into doing something against your best interests. If you do start feeling like he's trying to manipulate you though, don't be afraid to throw the bullshit flag and call him out on it. I suspect the notion of "forgiveness" will be thrown around quite a bit, but just remember that's Jesus' job, not yours. And I'll tell you this... I've been in R for over 5 years now, and I have NEVER forgiven my WH. Nor will I.

There's no reimbursement a WS can make for the pain they've inflicted, no coin which does justice to the magnitude of the injury. A WS can't make it right. They can't make it even. In R, you eventually have to wipe the red out of your ledger, write-off the debt as uncollectable. And I've had some people tell me, "oh, but that's IS forgiveness". Maybe so, maybe no. But I'd choke on the word, so my WH will never have it. Some things are unforgivable... but even then, there are ways to work around it so you can be comfortable in either R or D.

Don't let anyone pressure you. The whole point of creating this space is for you to get right with yourself so you know what you want moving forward. And as I've said many times, it's okay (and even preferable) to be a little selfish right now. It's the only way to you're going to be able to drill down to an authentic answer.

“I would like you to install a heating system for my property. I will give you $1000”. Do you sign the contract?

Or you would like to know a bit more about the property? Square footage etc?

If you’re happy with your current agreement great!

But don’t blindly agree before you get all the info. Detailed timeline verified with a poly.

I’m sorry but you are going to regret not making a poly part of this deal. I can see this train coming from a mile away.....

I’m with the others, AH. You have 3 or 4 unaccounted for years, after the “changes” and prior to the last A. I know I’m not the only one here that believes there were others, it’s pretty predictable. It’s more important now that you’re leaving the door open for R that you learn the FULL truth. You do that with a timeline, questions and verification via polygraph.

I wouldn’t waste my time with MC til she passes a polygraph and then only an independent one. Hint, that’s not her pastor.

Brother, what is the tension like at home at the moment?

AH, I'm only catching up on Friday's posts and still have two pages to go. Perhaps when I go back and read the rest this will already have been covered.

If the pastor or your WW seem like they are making even a minute intimation of suggesting that you examine how you may have contributed to her adultery shut it down immediately. The adultery is entirely on her. 100%. Marital issues are shared in some portion but adultery is entirely on the adulterer. You were in the same marriage.

She is playing you along. She is using your want and need to do whats right for your workers and business against you. She said she would do any thing, well that's not true! She won't let you have peace of mind. We met with the pastor, and "I was the bad guy". I was suppose to let it go. He talked a lot about restoration. What I wish I would have asked was how he was going to restore me being her one and only? How he was going to make it that I was the only one in her? How was he going to make it that only my seed had EVER been in her? We all know there's nothing he could do. As ChamomileTea said "There's no reimbursement a WS can make for the pain they've inflicted, no coin which does justice to the magnitude of the injury. A WS can't make it right. They can't make it even." So at the end of the day,it's your choice. Do you want to "In R, you eventually have to wipe the red out of your ledger, write-off the debt as uncollectable." or

tell her when the time is right, tell her, You are deficient, No deal, I want better than you. I still encourage you to fine out before you make any promises to fine out what ALL you don't know.

1) Any other men

2) Any STDS

3) Full and Complete time line with poly

Stay strong . You can make it. You did NOT do this she did this. I support you!

IMO you should first visit with the Pastor alone. You're the victim and the therapist needs to diagnose you first (alone).

Why? so he knows what your issues are without your wife interrupting with excuses.

You can also speak more candidly (without her there to challenge, contradict, or add drama).

This is your opportunity to inform the Pastor why you don't trust her.

Why? because (make up your own list to guide you during the meeting with the Pastor):

1 - first, he's encouraging R but doesn't really know the facts or your wife (she's not selfless, frail or weak willed, she was not seduced)...she's stubborn, tough and determined to get her own way.

2 - that your wife makes promises but does not follow through or adds conditions later.

3 - not only did she not confess, she only admits to what she believes you already know. She is currently withholding information as to the full extent of her betrayal which is deceitful.

Therefore, she is still living a lie, plus your marriage was for the last 6 years and still is based on deceit. Forgiving can't start until you know what she did.

4 - her immediate concern was the lost of her kids' respect (and still is) vs the damage to her marriage/husband. You feel like her plan B.

5 - she initially blamed you for her affair and after reading books and counseling has back pedaled with the 'right' words.

However, her current action in pushing for MC (which by definition implies you're at least partially responsible for her affair) is evidence that deep down she still blames you.

Consequently, she's at risk to cheat again in the future whenever she convinces herself that she's entitled to more than what the institution of marriage offers.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 9:06 AM, August 29th (Saturday)]

For Buster123 and all of you that are urging me to ask her for details of her Affair, I get it. I was just focusing on getting the agreement rolling, now I will face her with all the tough questions. As a matter of fact she wants to meet before she leaves to her mom’s today and I will ask her for timeline.

IMO you should first visit with the Pastor alone. You're the victim and the therapist needs to diagnose you first (alone).

Why? so he knows what your issues are without your wife interrupting with excuses.

You can also speak more candidly (without her there to challenge, contradict, or add drama).

This is your opportunity to inform the Pastor why you don't trust her.

Why? because (make up your own list to guide you during the meeting with the Pastor):

Maybe I’m not a good negotiator, but I just had to settle for this one time meeting with the pastor, BTW, he too has asked for a meeting with just me and him but I refused to go. I’m not sure she will be in that meeting but even if she is how bad could it be? I will make sure he knows the glory details and can’t wait to tell him about the heater incident.

I’m working today so I wont be able to answer all of your questions and comments I’ll update you once I come home and meet with my wife.

I’m not too worried about the pastor, you’ll do fine.

When you ask for the timeline, be sure to make it very clear that, at this point, the most important part is the truth. She has to let go of the outcome. It would be more damaging for you to have a DDay 2 than whatever she has to confess. I’m not a religious person. But maybe this will help? Lying to you now is lying to God.

You can’t consider building a new relationship on a foundation of lies.

For Buster123 and all of you that are urging me to ask her for details of her Affair, I get it. I was just focusing on getting the agreement rolling, now I will face her with all the tough questions. As a matter of fact she wants to meet before she leaves to her mom’s today and I will ask her for timeline.

Excellent, don't forget to ask her about the time prior to her 2 year LTA, be prepared, make a list of questions so that you don't miss anything (you can go back and read some of the ones suggested here by me and others), tell her they will be subject to a polygraph, tell her that if "jesus is really back at the steering wheel" that you expect her to tell you the truth and be 100% honest regardless of how painful the answer is. Remember this is NOT a negotiation session, however if she refuses to answer them right then and there, that all bets are off and you would just file for D and not go to any meetings with the pastor or MC, as for the complete and detailed timeline of her LTA (and any others she may confess to) give her a week or two to finish it.

You've got the right idea about the pastor meeting. The truth will throw him and your WW off balance if they keep trying to push their forgiveness narrative. Your WW will be on her best behavior with an audience and will have to either own up to her dirty deeds or shut it. That's typically how these kind of things go.

Sounds like you are going to ace this

She needs to own up to what level of std risk she was , this does require a full list of participants dates and a list of acts . She needs to say all these things infront of the pastor so the true sordid pathetic truth hits both of them and not the “ lost lamb rejoins the flock after a brief frolic with a butterfly “ version

Just because her recents std tests were negative doesnt mean she didnt give you something in the past . You have an absolute right to know all of this , pastor better agree with you on that upfront otherwise terminate the meeting

Good luck !

[This message edited by siracha at 12:25 PM, August 29th (Saturday)]

I was just focusing on getting the agreement rolling, now I will face her with all the tough questions.

Make sure that those are YOUR questions, things that YOU want to know. The questions of this gallery are unimportant. Other people don't have to live your life or deal with your triggers. Every new piece of information will create a new trigger. It's important that you understand that. If you find out that your WW and her AP had sex in a particular motel chain, every time you see that sign or hear that slogan, you're going to trigger. Same thing for restaurants, shopping, food items, songs, etc. Even worse, if you ever do decide to R, intimate knowledge of their sexual activity can trigger you so badly that you're unable to perform.

That's not to say that you shouldn't ask questions and get answers. Only that you would do well to consider those questions and think about how getting answers for them will serve you and your healing process. When it was me, I passed these questions through the lens of "How does knowing this answer help ME?" In one example, I noticed on my phone bill that my WH was out of town on a particular day in the locale of OW#2. This was at the apex of his affair with OW#3 with whom there had been declarations of love and lots of future-faking. So I asked him.. did he have sex with OW#2 that day? Bear in mind that I was already triggered with dozens and dozens of calendar dates where he had betrayed me. But this answer provided insight into his REAL feelings about OW#3. If he had been as emotionally involved as he had claimed to her, no way he's have fucked OW#2, but he did and he lied to OW#3 about where he was that day.

It is completely natural to want to know EVERYTHING, to burn with an almost frantic craving to search through every jot of information. This is your brain's way of trying to recreate your reality at that time. But morbid curiosity will create so many triggers and each of those triggers will need to be resolved. So, follow your OWN judgment on what you decide to ask.

Since you have to go see the pastor instead of referring to your wife as wife you might consider using a more current title for her. Adulteress. As this takes away the notion that the pastor will be starting from that she is your wife therefore deserving of some innate credit. You your self said she fired you when she made the POSOM more important than you.

Hi AH,

I agree with Robert22205https that the right time to ask for a timeline (subject to a polygraph) is BEFORE meeting with the Pastor. However, IMO, I will ask her the question of whether there are any other men except Mr. Millionaire in the last 2 years ever emerged in the marriage? You need her to tell the truth in front of God, in front of pastor. Meanwhile you can quote John 1:9, the prerequisite of forgiveness is CONFESSION. Without the confession of the full truth, how can you forgive (but you are not Jesus)? How can you forgive for what you don’t know?

You can also tell the pastor that MC is the process of repairing the machine (marriage). You and WW are the parts of the machine. If the parts is broken without repair itself, how can you repair the whole machine? She already said that she is willing to answer any questions you would like to ask, even the tough questions. It is the time to honor her words.

Chamomile Tea Posted: 4:07 PM, August 28th (Friday), 2020

There's no reimbursement a WS can make for the pain they've inflicted, no coin which does justice to the magnitude of the injury. A WS can't make it right. They can't make it even. In R, you eventually have to wipe the red out of your ledger, write-off the debt as uncollectable. And I've had some people tell me, "oh, but that's IS forgiveness".

ChamomileTea Posted: 3:39 PM, August 29th (Saturday), 2020

Every new piece of information will create a new trigger. It's important that you understand that.

Chamomile Tea wrote it objectively, you have to think for yourself, and sometimes may be a little selfish for yourself.

[This message edited by glassofwater at 5:55 AM, August 30th (Sunday)]

I follow you thread for the past two weeks, when I read the furnace incident, I can’t help to stop reading for nearly an hour and thought if I were you, after reading the text between WW and OM, what would I feel? I dropped tears! Frankly speaking, that dialogue has been haunted me for the whole 2 weeks. I have the same feelings as you, angry, humiliation, betrayal, pain, loss of confident, and I cannot escape from it………..

Something cannot be undo. What you decide to go, R or D, is the consequence not punishment. Therefore don’t feel bad for any decision you make. Follow you heart. The most difficult part for you to give up is the happy memories with her in the past. It’s gone……forever.

[This message edited by glassofwater at 6:46 AM, August 30th (Sunday)]