SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

She is still trying to manipulate you, through and through. She knows that you aren't as religious as her, yet still keeps bringing it up, knowing it has no meaning to you. It's between her and her deity, it doesn't involve you, and has no weight. Her words and actions are still selfish.

Quite sure AH is mature enough not to make too much of this criticism of his ww

Absolutely, I'm not here to be offended by anyone's comment. I'm too numb to be offended by anything else. After all it is an open public forum and every one is free to have an opinion even the guy that thought I was drinking a Kool-Aid, although I wouldn't be here venting my emotions if there was such a koolAid.

My wife and I are still negotiating terms of a separation, she wanted it to be just a verbal agreement without any legal weight, my lawyer advised against that and suggested one that could be incorporated into a Divorce decree should we go that route. It' is called "Marital Settlement Agreement." the problem is such a settlement requires a final agreement on terms if we go to D, things like spouse support, Kids custody assets division...ect and we are not agreeing yet. I won't bother you with the details of the legal part of this I know it is overwhelming. but to give you an idea on what the plan is , we'll be separated for 6 months I'm staying home with my sons she's moving out to her mom's at least the first month or two. she will still have access to the house but can't come without a notice and an approval. she already agreed to legally forfeit any rights to my business regardless if we D today or year from now.since the settlement requires us to have a plan for our properties I suggested we agree on selling them both after 6 months and split the profit 50/50 but she wants a way to keep the main house. I assured her that this was just a formality and I would not force her to sell if it comes to it she just has to take my word for it. so there is still a hesitation from her which is understandable she is as overwhelmed as me.

In a worst case scenario, I will have to find a permanent place to operate my business within the next 6 months which would involve many factors.

what a seperation means for us

1- break from each other to evalute

2- No dating other people

3- we will keep communicating via text or phone and face to face every 2 weeks.

4- she will start a secular IC as soon as possible ( she is making phone calls)

5- She demanded a MC, first she wanted it now with her pastor, after days of going back an forth I agreed to meet with him once and promised a MC with a secular therapist only if progress have been made 6 months from now and D was on the back burner. this is one of the subjects that's holding us up.

Wife doesn't want the separation but understands that she has no choice, she knows that I could file on the ground of adultery otherwise which I do not want to have to de. she was emotional when i told her that i didn't want to tag her with Adultery she cried, thanked me and said she didn't deserve my generosity. the separation is a good thing for me because it buys me time to save and keep my business, and to not rush to any decision. D can still be granted as the separation could be merged into the decree.

For her is also a time to settle down and focus on her issues,

Good update and a good strategy!! I hope the best for you and your family.

This is good progress, AH, and does what has been recommended: look out for yourself first.

I am glad you are following your atty’s advice and not allowing a verbal agreement. To me the fact that your WW is vying for that shows she’s still trying to control the situation and manipulate you.

Stick to your guns.

Buying time to figure out a plan for your business is a good thing. I always thought rushing to shut down your hard earned business was never a good idea.

You should really stick to your guns on the MC. Everyone here will tell you how worthless it is now, and likely harmful. I would gently suggest the following: allow a stipulation that you will consider reevaluating the possibility of MC once time has passed at the 6 month mark. This again buys time and gets her to sign the agreement. It sounds like this has been verbally agreed to already.

Many of us are concerned about the pastor but only you are in your own shoes and only you know if you can withstand the pressure and manipulation and guilting that is likely to come with that meeting. It is likely to be very unhelpful.

On the IC piece if you can I would suggest her finding a betrayal trauma specialist. This is a particular specialist who will hold her feet to the fire and is versed in dealing with infidelity. Very important if you can find one. Many are listed in the resource page here at SI. Others IC’s could potentially coddle her.

Ask you your attorney if you can stipulate that she must complete a written timeline document on the affair and submit to a polygraph.

1 - Why does she keep insisting on MC?

2 - Why does she insist you speak with the pastor?

3 - Does the meeting with the pastor include your wife (if so, why?).

4 - You need to start IC immediately (preferably before you speak with the pastor).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 7:42 AM, August 28th (Friday)]

AH why don’t you suggest that you will meet with the pastor only ONE TIME if and when she has spent at least three months in IC with a betrayal trauma specialist, has completed a written timeline for you, has completed and documented for you a written NC letter to OM, and passed a polygraph? And has read Linda McDonald’s book and proven she is working on McDonald’s plan?

In other words make it contingent on ALL of that.

Just a thought.

I would bet she will balk and hesitate at that and try to negotiate with you — and that will tell you something very important.

Any hesitation on doing a polygraph is a deal breaker.

As others have noted it is VERY odd she keeps insisting on MC and you meeting with the pastor. MC has been shown time and again to be harmful to betrayed spouses in the wake of DDAY. The pastor has a vested interest in “saving the marriage” which your WW already ended. You should make it clear to the pastor that when adultery happens the marriage is ended, the vows are shattered and the covenant is null and void.

He will try to twist you into knots using Scripture in unbiblical and proof texting ways — because unfortunately that is how the evangelical community is geared toward adultery these days.

Be very careful with this AH

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:03 AM, August 28th (Friday)]

1 - Why does she keep insisting on MC?

2 - Why does she insist you speak with the pastor?

3 - Does the meeting with the pastor include your wife (if so, why?).

I don't know why, she has insisted on MC even before all this started. She said that the pastor is an experienced certified therapist with a master degree, I'm pretty sure she wants to be in that meeting with the pastor.

4 - You need to start IC immediately (preferably before you speak with the pastor).

I'm afraid this won't happen. I had to agree just to get the settlement going. finding then scheduling an IC will delay things.

AH why don’t you suggest that you will meet with the pastor only ONE TIME if and when she has spent at least three months in IC with a betrayal trauma specialist, has completed a written timeline for you, has completed and documented for you a written NC letter to OM, and passed a polygraph? And has read Linda McDonald’s book and proven she is working on McDonald’s plan?

In other words make it contingent on ALL of that.

Just a thought.

I would bet she will balk and hesitate at that and try to negotiate with you — and that will tell you something very important.

Any hesitation on doing a polygraph is a deal breaker.

Thomus, trust me I have no desire to see him but had to let that one slip. She asked for a complete MC therapy with him at least I was able to get it down to one session. I won't lose much to sit down and listen to whatever we will say. my attitude going to this is I'm checked out but need the time to sort through my emotions and prepare for an eventual D, If she can do something miraculous to convince me otherwise during this time I would then consider R. I believe it is a win win for both of us considering the very bad situation we've found ourselves in.

AHguy, I understand your plan with the MC. It seems reasonable to me. Just don't be afraid to pull the plug if it starts to become counterproductive for you.

Regardless of when, I would also suggest you try IC. It helped me a lot.

You mentioned custody as part of your separation discussion. Aren't all of your kids over 18? Maybe I'm confused.

And as far as why your WW keeps insisting on MC, it is one of her last ditch attempts to stop the D. She will use every session as an opportunity to manipulate. To start it will probably just be to delay the D. "Give it 6-12 months before you decide". You seem to be in a good place, where you are in control of yourself and your emotions, so I don't think it will work. Just wanted to warn you. And by "I don't think it will work", I mean the manipulation. If you see positive steps from your WW and you decide not to file right away, that doesn't mean you are being manipulated.

Ok well do not allow the pastor or her to:

1. Blameshift

2. Scapegoat you by using your WW’s false rewriting of the history of your marriage

3. Talk about repentance unless it is true metanoia which can only be demonstrated over a long period of time

4. Use The Book of Hosea - we are not meant to emulate Hosea and anyone who says we are is using Scripture falsely.

5. Try to say “God hates divorce” - this has been taken out of context

6. use the example of Jesus and the adulterous woman (this is actually an interpolation and is noted as being a made up anecdote in most Bibles). And the way it has been used this also confuses forgiveness with reconciliation.

7. Try to say men are “hard hearted” if they divorce over adultery. That’s not what Jesus was saying at all.

8. Try to conflate or combine forgiveness with reconciling the marriage. They are two separate things and should be treated as such.

Others may be along with advice to help you in that mtg.

You should try to insist you have sign off on which IC she sees and that you will be able to talk to this counselor as well.

AHG, I think you're handling this the right way.

Prepare some things to bring up if he harps on about forgiveness and keeping the marriage intact by giving it to God like she's been saying. Bring up the fact that her sketchy behavior started years before when she said the A started with GNOs and tell him you suspect that she isn't being truthful about the number of OM there have been or the start of the A. That kind of response always shuts someone up when they go on about rugsweeping because *SHOCKER!* it reminds them that the WS is a liar and they have not been told the full story. We see this a lot and just about every time the third party has been given a very sanitized version of events that casts the WS in the absolute best light making it seem like R/rugsweeping would be an easy given so if you suspect he has not been informed of what about your experience has you leaning towards D, tell him your side and allow him to give you advice based on the truth if he's going to give you any good advice at all.

I'd also like to point out that it makes sense that your WW wants you to see this pastor specifically. She is trying VERY hard to control the narrative of the A and to control the outcome by convincing you to R with her. If you go to a neutral 3rd party, she no longer has control. The pastor already knows her (likely minimized) story and is in her corner. Of course she's insistent on seeing him because they already have a game plan on how to convince you into not D'ing her.

Bring up the fact that her sketchy behavior started years before when she said the A started with GNOs and tell him you suspect that she isn't being truthful about the number of OM there have been or the start of the A. That kind of response always shuts someone up when they go on about rugsweeping because *SHOCKER!* it reminds them that the WS is a liar and they have not been told the full story. We see this a lot and just about every time the third party has been given a very sanitized version of events that casts the WS in the absolute best light making it seem like R/rugsweeping would be an easy given so if you suspect he has not been informed of what about your experience has you leaning towards D, tell him your side and allow him to give you advice based on the truth if he's going to give you any good advice at all.

Very good advice here, AH. Also I just want to say it one more time: most of what you're doing here is good, but it is likely to be completely unreliable insofar as her "work" over the next six months unless she sees a betrayal trauma IC, gives you a detailed narrative written timeline ("I don't know" "I don't remember" and "you already know everything" are not good enough), and unless she backs up that timeline with a polygraph.

For example, how are you supposed to believe anything this woman says at this point? She is a proven liar many times over. How do you know if she screwed other men in the 5-6 years she was doing GNOs and getting all tatted up? The chances of this are pretty high.

Do not be afraid of the truth. You really need to know what you're dealing with here, and I'm afraid you only know the tip of the iceberg.

You need the truth to make an informed decision. Without truth from her, any talk of remorse is a joke.

The polygraph has been brought up several times on this thread, but I think you've only addressed it once or twice and dismissed it as something you didn't want to do in the event of D. Ok, but now you're entering into a no-man's land with her and agreeing to at least some form of counseling.

So now, all the advice you've received about staying entangled with this woman applies.

This includes:

1. Getting a VAR for yourself to record any in person encounters with her.

2. Getting an STD panel for yourself and documented STD test results from her, with the stipulation you can ask for this again at any time.

3. Getting a detailed WRITTEN timeline from her. As in now. By the end of next week.

4. Getting a polygraph to verify the timeline and other questions, such as sex with other men in the course of your marriage.

5. Reading Linda McDonald's book and doing exactly what the book requires.

These are what I refer to as "non-negotiable" bare minimum items necessary in any attempt at reconciliation or even a quasi-no-man's land like the one you're entering into.

It took me far too long to get a written timeline and polygraph from my wife. I avoided it because I was AFRAID. Unfortunately my WW confirmed my fears by continuing to drag her feet, creating drama and ultimately failing the polygraph.

But it gave me CLARITY.

In another case, Beyond Rage got a polygraph from his wife IMMEDIATELY. And she passed. So he knew what he was dealing with and he can make informed decisions about his WW going forward.

Please give this some thought.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:49 AM, August 28th (Friday)]

Why don't you require the STD test, written timeline and polygraph BEFORE you will see the pastor?

These are things she should have ALREADY done if she was truly remorseful.

She can start reading Linda McDonald's book RIGHT NOW. Today. Download on Kindle and read it.

The written timeline should only take a few days of sitting and writing. Butt in chair. Pen and paper in hand. Everything from start to finish.

The polygraph can be scheduled next week. Costs about $500 and the examiner will help you with precise wording on questions. Accuracy goes down somewhat with each additional question, but three or four questions still has very high accuracy. You can also give her a list of additional questions before the exam and see what her reaction is -- even if the examiner isn't going to ask them.

STD test takes less than an hour and you get results back quickly within a week or so.

Also you can ask the OBS for a copy of EVERYTHING she has.

Again, don't be afraid of the truth.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:54 AM, August 28th (Friday)]

AH, if you meet with the pastor, I wanted to pass something along to you.

More than likely he'll bring up forgiving people as this is what Jesus commands us to do (and he is right).

However, you can reply back to the Pastor the scripture of 1st John 1:9 where it says, "if we confess our sins he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness".

So Jesus does forgive us "if" we confess our sins. That before you can get to "forgiveness" you need to know the specific sins she committed so that you would know what you would be forgiving.

That you don't have all of the facts and why should you believe anything she says to you as she has been lying to you for years.

That the trust has been broken and trust isn't something you give away....it's earned.

One step to earning that trust would be for her to take a poly so that you can get some confirmation on whether she's telling you the truth on some very important questions that you have.

Just a thought AH.

For once, no snark. As you move into separation, the best way to do it is to hold firmly to the agreed upon guidelines. I can assure you that your wife will begin testing those boundaries very soon. There is always some excuse to do that, many of which might look valid, but in fact are not.

From my own experience, once you go down the road of letting the boundaries slip, it is hard to get them back. If the goal is to extricate yourself from the drama, it’s a lot like the old story of the tar baby. No matter how hard you try, it gets worse. And you will feel self imposed guilt for letting yourself down, and the Ww knows you well enough to work that.

Don’t let your principles slip just to go easy or be a nice guy.

Of course, the biggest issue will be the sexual tension if you are not seeing other women. Your ww will work that against you as well, so at least be aware which head is doing the thinking. Your resolve will go out the window once you start sleeping with her, despite the self loathing that you go thru for letting her “win”.

If you really think that this is a precursor for divorce, Maintaining anything but a civil distant relationship is counterproductive.

She's betting on the MC or the pastor to convince you to R. It's all they are trained to do. Which, of course, minimizes the A and WS all for the good of keeping the marriage afloat.

FWW, I went by way of the Marital Settlement Agreement. There was no mandatory 6 month "cooling off" separation period where I'm from. But we did negotiate for almost 2 years. In the end it took less than a month from when I filed to me walking out of the courtroom (by myself) with 2 copies (one for me, one for her) of the final judgement in hand.

AH, I think you've got a good plan going. Just see that as long as she is persisting in trying to get you to do MC or pastor is just her trying to control the situation. I think you know this. Never let your guard down.

D based on A doesn't brand anyone. Nobody reads divorce decrees. My re-maried fWW has a court issued D decree with our names and A as the grounds. It is 30 years old and I am certain not one person exist in the vastness of the globe that knows about her A from the D decree. It's not a brand, it is an acknowledgement by the cheater that it is in fact the basis for the D. That's all.

But I get it is your choice and for reasons that make sense for you.

We're pulling for you AH!

Get that timeline and poly!

Not to thread jack, but Thumos’ advice has been spot on!

Like him, I strongly recommend she has to have a polygraph and give you a timeline of the last SIX years as I’m suspecting there were other scumbag guys that she at least made out with in parking lots on random Girls Nights Out.

Congratulations on getting the opportunity to save your business.

Now stay strong and keep moving out of the Hell she put you in.

However, you can reply back to the Pastor the scripture of 1st John 1:9 where it says, "if we confess our sins he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness".

So Jesus does forgive us "if" we confess our sins. That before you can get to "forgiveness" you need to know the specific sins she committed so that you would know what you would be forgiving.

This is such good advice here, AH. Arm yourself with the FULL ARMOR of Scriptural truth and authority. That pastor is not a mediator. There is only ONE mediator.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:59 AM, August 28th (Friday)]