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I Can Relate :
BS Questions for WS - Part 14

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Underserving ( member #72259) posted at 2:21 AM on Monday, April 5th, 2021

Thank you HO!

My WH also said he was trying to end it without causing the AP to freak out. In his case she “didn’t know” his real last name, or that he was married, and he was afraid she’d figure it out, and then expose the whole thing to me (I do think she learned he was married but never told him. I have many reasons for believing that but zero proof)

The fallacy with that is he continued the emotional aspect pretty strongly for a couple more months. I do believe he started to taper communication from there, but those couple of months are hard to rationalize. That’s when the phone calls until 2 in the morning started. So why do that, but not continue with the sexual aspect? It seems so out of the ordinary to me.

[This message edited by Underserving at 8:24 PM, April 4th (Sunday)]

BW (32)
Found out 3 years post end of A
D-day 12-9-19
Meh-ing through R

Infidelity brings out the cuss in me. I’m not as foul mouthed in real life. ;)

posts: 657   ·   registered: Dec. 9th, 2019
id 8648103
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HatsandBats ( member #75938) posted at 7:18 PM on Wednesday, April 7th, 2021

Question: I have a thread on Just found out. I’m not sure if there are any WHs who have left for the AP on this thread.

My WH left 6 months ago. It was the first time he’s cheated in a 25 year old relationship. It’s been a bit rocky - he’s an alcoholic who relapsed out of guilt, has realised he’s co-dependant, and is just coming out of rehab & heading to see the AP. He definitely sees his future with her. I am completely failing at NC despite the good advice I’ve been given. One of the things I’ve be told is that he likes the fact that I clearly still want him and that he doesn’t feel bad.

I think the opposite. He wants me to be happy without him & hates that I’m clearly still so devastated and want reconciliation. This seems more consistent with his personality.

Anyway I wondered if any Waywards have a view - did you value & enjoy the centrality, when the hurt you’d caused was so awful?

PS I know NC is best, getting there.

posts: 97   ·   registered: Nov. 30th, 2020
id 8648664
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BraveSirRobin ( member #69242) posted at 9:50 PM on Wednesday, April 7th, 2021

Anyway I wondered if any Waywards have a view - did you value & enjoy the centrality, when the hurt you’d caused was so awful?

I'm afraid I did, but that doesn't mean I wanted the jilted person (in my case, the OM) to suffer. I hoped he'd find someone else because I was choosing not to stay with him, and I was pleased when I heard he'd gotten married. However, I also wanted him to remember me as "the one that got away" and to reserve a piece of his heart for me that no one else got to touch. That fantasy made me feel powerful.

Waywards are really bad at either/or, which is why we try to have it all. I suspect he wants you to be happy for a variety of reasons (residual affection, nostalgia, guilt), but he doesn't want you to be actively glad he's gone. You're supposed to almost get over him.

WW/BW 51 (Me)
BH/WH 51 (TimeSpiral)

posts: 2038   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8648708
frustrated

MaintainThePain ( new member #78496) posted at 2:42 PM on Thursday, April 8th, 2021

Question for WW's who developed an emotional connection and fell in love with their AP..

If you decided to R with your BH, did you still have feelings of love for your AP? How long did these feelings last? Do they ever go away?

My WW has openly admitted to still having feelings for her AP . I feel like I can't even begin to mend anything until the AP is out of her heart and mind. There's no room for me in her heart if the AP is there.. that's what my gut says anyway.

Maybe I am still thinking irrationally because I am still in the hurricane of processing DDay. Any other insight into this topic would be appreciated.

BH - me 35
WW - her 39

DDay: 10/05/2020
WW finally left AP: 12/30/2020

"The world is full of Kings and Queens who blind your eyes and steal your Dreams," - Ronnie James Dio

posts: 33   ·   registered: Mar. 12th, 2021
id 8648832
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ff4152 ( member #55404) posted at 1:47 AM on Friday, April 9th, 2021

NVM

[This message edited by ff4152 at 1:11 PM, April 9th (Friday)]

Me -FWS

posts: 1858   ·   registered: Sep. 30th, 2016
id 8648969
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BraveSirRobin ( member #69242) posted at 4:41 PM on Friday, April 9th, 2021

Hi MTP. I remember reading your first post in JFO and wishing I could reply to it. So much of what you describe reminds me painfully of the months after my A.

I had feelings of love for the OM, and while I ended the A voluntarily, I refused to go NC. It wouldn't have been complicated to do. He had moved to the other side of the country. I told him before he left that both the romantic and sexual aspects of our relationship were over. And yet, when BH said he needed me to kick OM out of my life completely, I told him no. It seems baffling when viewed logically. Why would I spit in the face of a suffering BS who was offering to reconcile for the sake of an ex-AP?

One of the challenges of analyzing a WS's behavior is that we deceive ourselves about our motivations as effectively as we deceive everyone else. There's a mess of truth and lies mixed together that can be hard to unpack.

OM and I started out as friends, and when we began developing inappropriate feelings for each other, I was conflicted. I felt scared. I felt powerful. I felt desirable. I felt grateful that he had anesthetized my fear of inadequacy. And I felt responsible for him, because he had been hurt by someone romantically in the past, and I was going to hurt him again when the affair ended. I had such deeply internalized fears of abandonment that rejecting someone felt like the worst thing I could do to them. Cheating, in my mind, wasn't as bad, because it was something I was giving from my own heart and body that was mine to give. I truly didn't consider that I had promised those things to someone else and was gifting stolen goods.

I'm sure there are plenty of WS who do the math on D-Day and dump their AP without a backward glance. I believed it was wrong to encourage OM's vulnerability and then throw him on the trash heap. Anyone with sense in their head would be more worried about the vulnerability of their BS, but I reasoned that BF would be ok because he "won." I picked him, ended the A, and broke OM's heart. Under that logic, the least I could do was honor my promise to stay friends with the guy I jilted.

This narrative conveniently helped me ignore how important it made me feel to have two men battle over me. I pretended to myself that it was over even though I knew OM was still silently pining. It's standard romance novel bullshit, but I ate it up. That's one of the reasons we encourage BS to detach. It's not the most important reason (which is self-protection from a person who has proven themselves to be emotionally dangerous), but it also reminds the WS that security is no longer owed to them. After betrayal, the responsibility is on the WS to prove themselves worthy, not the other way around.

Like you, my BF was afraid to detach because he didn't want me to run to OM's arms. Unlike your WW, I always knew I wasn't going to. In the four months of the A, I had seen that OM and I would have been a disastrous long term pairing. I just refused to accept that any contact meant the A was ongoing. Waywards have a hard time believing that we can't fix what we did and/or avoid the worst consequences of it. Because we have such broken moral compasses, we can head off in the wrong direction even when we try to go in the right one.

My bullheaded insistence harmed my BF (now H) terribly. It didn't help OM, either, because NC was inevitable. Staying in contact just gave him false hope and kept him from getting on with the business of forgetting about me. It probably wasn't as hard as I imagined, either; WS and APs are pretty good at looking out for themselves. But whether he was deeply attached or not, a clean break was still the right answer.

You have one bitter advantage that my BF didn't. I refused to admit the full extent of the EA/PA. The truth your wife gave you is brutal, but at least you know what you're working with and can decide if it's a deal breaker. I denied my BF that agency and told myself that the details I was hiding were inconsequential. BF knew OM and I slept together, he knew we exchanged ILYs, so I rationalized that he knew the worst and could make his decisions based on that outline.

All these toxic choices fucked with BF's head. Although I was sympathetic and gave him lots of hugs and reassurance that the A was over, I expected him to decide whether or not he could forgive me without even telling him what he was forgiving. I used my resentment about NC to develop entitlement about reconciliation. Because I gave in on BF's most important demand, I thought he owed me guarantees in return. He was so relieved that I agreed to go NC that he complied. He rugswept and ignored his gut feeling that I was still lying. Eventually, though, he couldn't pretend anymore, and that's how we ended up back here when OM and I haven't spoken for decades.

As far as how long it took to stop having feelings, I don't remember exactly, but the NC helped enormously. I went years without thinking about OM. In times of stress, though, when I was feeling inadequate for some reason, I still romanticized the memory of the A. I didn't wish I had chosen differently, nor did I relive the sex, as most BHs seem to fear. I mostly forgot the sexual details. Instead, I fed off the memory of being wanted and irresistible the way a former high school football hero lives in the memory of winning the Big Game. SI helped me to see that the OM was just a source of validation. That doesn't mean he had no qualities that were genuinely attractive to me, but what really sold me on the affair wasn't what I saw in him, but what I was soothing in myself. Once I started examining those psychological wounds, I was able to see OM was just a band-aid.

I'm glad that you're pursuing therapy with counselors who are trained in infidelity and trauma recovery. Don't rugsweep. Take all the time you need. If your WW can't support you through that, then you are better off going it alone than making promises you are in no condition to make.

WW/BW 51 (Me)
BH/WH 51 (TimeSpiral)

posts: 2038   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8649278
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MaintainThePain ( new member #78496) posted at 6:34 PM on Friday, April 9th, 2021

@BraveSirRobin Thank you for your honest answer.

You are correct, hearing that my WW still has another man in her heart right now is as brutal as DDay itself, for me anyway.

I appreciate your honest response and the input you have provided. I find myself circulating on a few different subjects, one being that I wish NC happened right as I found everything. I have zero empathy for any reason why contact would need to continue, but that is because of my current position.

I can't make much sense of life right now, but I know I am not going to rugsweep anything. I am going to do my best to heal my trauma before making a decision on R or D. I'm just not there in my headspace yet.

I had mentioned in my post, an A was always a deal breaker for me and my WW knew that. I can't tell you how many A's I saw in the military, among friends, and even family and my advice was always to D because betrayal and breaking moral values is unforgivable.

I am now in this position myself and find myself trying to make amendments to my own character and beliefs to see if R can fit. What a crazy world.

Thanks again for your honest response, it gives me more to think about and to chew on.

BH - me 35
WW - her 39

DDay: 10/05/2020
WW finally left AP: 12/30/2020

"The world is full of Kings and Queens who blind your eyes and steal your Dreams," - Ronnie James Dio

posts: 33   ·   registered: Mar. 12th, 2021
id 8649317
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BetterNowReally ( new member #77292) posted at 9:15 PM on Friday, April 9th, 2021

BSR,

I also appreciate the honesty of your post. It is definitely praiseworthy that you are willing to reveal such unappealing truths about yourself in an effort to help others. Good for you, and good for everyone who can benefit from it, which I think will be a lot of people.

I was wondering, though, about the "rest of your story." It is probably on the site spread over many posts, but perhaps you could consolidate for me.

I was especially wondering about what you did to help your spouse, or make it up to your spouse, or otherwise right the wrongs so to speak. And how long did it take you to get to it?

I am asking because my WW after hiding two of her affairs from me for over twenty years and most of the worst details of her third affair for about thirteen years then insisted that we rugsweep it all and also treated me like crap for another couple of decades. But in the last year and a half she has totally changed, "got it" as they say, is completely remorseful, caring, compassionate, attentive to the point of doting, and does everything that I could ever expect of a dream wife and is even better than the wife I had hoped for in the first place.

However, I do have some resentment over the "lost years," as in, WTF, why couldn't you have done this or even something remotely resembling it years ago.

Did your husband have these types of feelings or resentments? What did you do and what he has he done to battle those types of feelings (if he has had them)?

posts: 8   ·   registered: Feb. 11th, 2021
id 8649360
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timestandsstill ( member #29921) posted at 10:30 PM on Friday, April 9th, 2021

No, it wasn't a lie. Speaking as a compartmentalizer, I never lost my passion, admiration, or affection for my BH. It was all real. That doesn't excuse my poor boundaries when I allowed someone else into my emotional life, but that was due to holes in me, not anything lacking in how I saw him. Even at my worst, I never had to fake feeling in love.

Thank you, BraveSirRobin. I've been struggling to make sense of everything on my own and sometimes feel like my grief isn't even valid.

[This message edited by timestandsstill at 4:31 PM, April 9th (Friday)]

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
― Eleanor Roosevelt

posts: 174   ·   registered: Oct. 22nd, 2010   ·   location: PA
id 8649375
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BraveSirRobin ( member #69242) posted at 12:47 AM on Saturday, April 10th, 2021

I have zero empathy for any reason why contact would need to continue, but that is because of my current position.

I get that, for sure. I don't think there's any legitimate reason, either. When I describe my former thoughts, it's to illustrate my wayward logic, not to defend it.

I was wondering, though, about the "rest of your story." It is probably on the site spread over many posts, but perhaps you could consolidate for me. I was especially wondering about what you did to help your spouse, or make it up to your spouse, or otherwise right the wrongs so to speak. And how long did it take you to get to it?

The basic overview is in my profile. Our situation was complicated in ways that weren't relevant to MTP's circumstances. I'm a madhatter, and my H had ONS both before and after my A. Our work on D-Day 2 involved unpacking rugswept offenses on both sides. I'm not implying that our scales were balanced, because I feel that what I did was worse than what he did, but it was all tangled together, and we both had to work to unsnarl it.

I am asking because my WW after hiding two of her affairs from me for over twenty years and most of the worst details of her third affair for about thirteen years then insisted that we rugsweep it all and also treated me like crap for another couple of decades. But in the last year and a half she has totally changed, "got it" as they say, is completely remorseful, caring, compassionate, attentive to the point of doting, and does everything that I could ever expect of a dream wife and is even better than the wife I had hoped for in the first place.

However, I do have some resentment over the "lost years," as in, WTF, why couldn't you have done this or even something remotely resembling it years ago.

Did your husband have these types of feelings or resentments? What did you do and what he has he done to battle those types of feelings (if he has had them)?

He certainly was furious that I hadn't given him the full truth. If I had admitted the scope of the A, he might have ended things with me, and at the very least, he feels he would have insisted on immediate NC. That would have saved him a world of hurt. However, he also realizes that if he had been honest with me about OW #1, I'd have had the option of ending things with him before I ever met OM.

I don't think he feels that I treated him like shit for all those years between D-Days 1 and 2. We really were pretty happy for most of our marriage, and we also got through some terrible times together. What we want from each other is absolute honesty, patience, and remorse, and so that's what we give.

WW/BW 51 (Me)
BH/WH 51 (TimeSpiral)

posts: 2038   ·   registered: Dec. 27th, 2018
id 8649391
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Username123 ( member #77150) posted at 9:30 AM on Saturday, April 10th, 2021

Waywards,

What was sex like with your BS just before and during your affair ?

My wife tells me sex with me during her affair was the same as sex with me just before her affair. She says she was always very satisfied with our sex life including just before and during her affair. If this is true then why did she engage in a one year long affair that was mostly sexual and not very emotional ?

posts: 223   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2021
id 8649430
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Lucky77 ( member #61337) posted at 10:34 PM on Saturday, April 10th, 2021

Hi Username,

The big thing about affair sex for me was how illicit it was. All the running around in secret. A real Garden of Eden/ eating the Forbidden Fruit kind of thing. It was exciting and got the blood really pumping because of how I was getting away with it. All that dopamine got addictive so I kept going back for more.

The actual sex was fine. It's mostly just grunts and body fluids. By far not the real joy. I'd go so far to say that it was worse than sex with my W if I were to really look at it.

WS
1 year PA/ 2 Yr EA
Oh the depths of the betrayal

posts: 331   ·   registered: Nov. 7th, 2017
id 8649520
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Username123 ( member #77150) posted at 11:31 PM on Saturday, April 10th, 2021

Lucky77,

Your comment reminds me of how my wife talks about her affair sex. It makes no sense.

Think about all the positive things you say about your affair sex:

1) It was a garden of eden experience "A real Garden of Eden/ eating the Forbidden Fruit kind of thing."

2) It was exciting "It was exciting"

3) It got the blood pumping "got the blood really pumping"

4) It was addictive "All that dopamine got addictive"

5) You kept going back for more "so I kept going back for more."

How do you think your BW or any BS reads the above comments.

My wife told me it was an addiction. She didn't even stop to think how I would feel hearing that she was addicted to another man or addicted to having sex with another man.

Then you close by saying "I'd go so far to say that it was worse than sex with my W if I were to really look at it". This is not a believable statement considering all the positive things you said about sex with your AP. My wife tried telling me about the same thing.

[This message edited by Username123 at 5:32 PM, April 10th (Saturday)]

posts: 223   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2021
id 8649533
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Darkness Falls ( member #27879) posted at 1:10 AM on Sunday, April 11th, 2021

This is not a believable statement considering all the positive things you said about sex with your AP.

And Lucky’s BW is free to believe or not believe him, just as you are free to believe, or not believe, your WW. I find it offensive that you (repeatedly) ask (the same) questions of WSs on SI and then basically accuse them of being liars when they answer you.

As to your question

if this is true, why did she engage in a one year long affair thar was mostly sexual and not very emotional ?

, we are not your wife, so of course there is no way any of us can answer that. I would suggest you ask your wife that question, but I’m pretty sure you already have, which brings us back to you being free to believe her or not. If you don’t believe her, what do you hope to gain by continuing to beat the dead horse?

WS - remarried to BH but not in R

D-day 2010

posts: 6312   ·   registered: Mar. 8th, 2010   ·   location: USA
id 8649556
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Username123 ( member #77150) posted at 2:24 AM on Sunday, April 11th, 2021

Darkness Falls,

First, I was not addressing you at all so if you are taking offense at something I said to someone else you have an internal problem.

Second, waywards lie all the time so it should not be surprising I don't believe my WW or other waywards. In fact I am pretty damn sure my WW still lies to me about details of her affair from two years ago.

From now on please stay off my threads and comments. You are not helpful. In fact if you reread your response to me it is obvious you were not being helpful at all.

posts: 223   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2021
id 8649566
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Darkness Falls ( member #27879) posted at 3:37 AM on Sunday, April 11th, 2021

so it should not be surprising I don't believe my WW or other waywards.

Then why come onto our thread and ask us questions??

Omg, really. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 9:38 PM, April 10th (Saturday)]

WS - remarried to BH but not in R

D-day 2010

posts: 6312   ·   registered: Mar. 8th, 2010   ·   location: USA
id 8649573
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Username123 ( member #77150) posted at 3:52 AM on Sunday, April 11th, 2021

Darkness Falls,

You are a perfect example of a dishonest wayward. You are staying in a marriage that is terrible by your own admission for the sake of your child until you can divorce your husband at future date. You don't even have the honesty to tell your husband this truth.

[This message edited by Username123 at 4:03 AM, April 11th (Sunday)]

posts: 223   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2021
id 8649574
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forgettableDad ( member #72192) posted at 12:43 PM on Sunday, April 11th, 2021

Second, waywards lie all the time

mate, nobody lies all the time. That statement, in and of itself is a lie.

If you walk down the street and meet an asshole, shit, you met an asshole. If you walk down the street and meet two assholes, heck - you got shitty luck. But if you walk down the street and EVERYONE feels like an asshole - maybe they aren't the problem...

Your wife shouldn't care how you feel when you hear the truth. Because that's the truth. The truth doesn't care about your feelings. You need to decide whether you want to divorce her or try and build a new relationship togehter as equals.

In the end, we're random words on the internet. If you really just want someone to tell you what you want to hear, try a fortune teller.

posts: 261   ·   registered: Dec. 1st, 2019
id 8649636
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Zorak ( new member #74500) posted at 5:22 AM on Monday, April 12th, 2021

Why would I want to stay with a cheater? Why not find a person who's already moral, rather than someone who's just figuring it out?

posts: 9   ·   registered: Jun. 1st, 2020   ·   location: Virginia
id 8649833
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forgettableDad ( member #72192) posted at 8:00 AM on Monday, April 12th, 2021

That's not a question for us though, that's a question for you.

I can tell you my actions, my emotions, my memories of being me having an affair and working to become a better person. I can't speak on behalf of my wife or anyone else, least of all you.

posts: 261   ·   registered: Dec. 1st, 2019
id 8649840
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