SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

To everyone, I am reading all responses.

Buffer -

Did she re write the marriage? Making you out (in her mind) not to care so she could do what she did.

Not in that sense. She didn't believe I didn't care. She believed I was absent, as in making her "do everything" which is far removed from reality. She felt she was alone in raising our kids (false) and taking care of the home (also false). This is from her, she did not communicate her issues and she has come to (or at least told me she came to) a realization that the issues she felt were invalid to begin with and could have been solved by talking to me.

One thing that night that stuck with me was a simple example she just blurted out for her "why I don't love you anymore", so simple and petty I was shocked. The little issue was truly minor and in fact the reason she had to do this one thing and I balked at doing it was simply because she was better at it. And it is so damn trivial. That's it. I didn't avoid it to not do it, I avoided it because she was better at it. Once I told her that she seemed really ashamed, like instantly ashamed. Like a light bulb went off. That's actually when she first started crying that night (before I kicked her out). She could have said something and at least that very tiny bit could have led to open communication and avoided all of this. So there were clearly dozens if not hundreds of little things adding up over time, each one making the other seem more magnified.

(not excuses, all her fault)

In all marriages there is a dynamic, who does what. In ours, she stayed home, took care of the kids during the day. I worked. When I came home I spent time with my family, did all the things a father does with their children and I fawned over my wife. But she didn't "see" that, all she saw was her at home, doing nothing, or "everything". I also did everything related to our little home at the time, I practically rebuilt the house from the ground up. Every little thing from plumbing, electrical, to flooring and kitchens. She loaded the dishwasher, I fixed the dishwasher. That was the dynamic and all the things I did just did not register. I also worked late in the night on three businesses to make things better for us, this is AFTER my time with the kids and her and them falling asleep. Two businesses failed, the third was literally the charm. I did "everything".

She has now admitted that, without my prompting I might add, and she says she see's it and understands it.

I assume (because I can't give her this excuse) this all was partly because of her desire or need to do something "more". I mean life as a stay at home parent can be boring. I know that now because I am the stay at home parent, it's easy work, but very very boring. Not an excuse... there are better ways, but I am just trying to get to the why.

In a way, I did see this take a toll on her which is why I encouraged her to finish schooling and follow what she wanted to do, which is completely ironic, because that's where she met the OM. Fuck me right? Yeah - fuck me. I bettered my wife's life, confidence and gave her the means for a self sufficient paycheck and that's what she does in return. Fuck me...

I digress...She has repeatedly blamed HER lack of communication. Not mine, hers. She has also repeatedly said that the things that were in her mind building up were just totally false and she see's it clearly now. And she's given me examples, again, without prompting, of why she was wrong and what she now sees.

So while I do not have a why for the direct affair, I do have a why as to how the distance in her head started to get to a point where she could do it. It's not valid, it's certainly no excuse, but it is a why of sorts.

The next why is much harder because none of the above is an excuse or a valid reason and it doesn't answer the hard question that I am dreading that I must ask and get an honest answer for. It is also slowly dawning on me that the inability to see the forest through the trees is a major flaw

To those insinuating or outright saying it. I am not a doormat, this is 20 years in marriage and more before, this is a person I have loved completely, cut me some slack for a bit? I am still not yet in the stage of actually understanding or comprehending ALL of what she has done. I may be slow on the uptake, but I am not a doormat. I understand that is coming, I am not sure how I am going to handle it. This might all be for naught. Once it hits, my feelings might change.

Particle-

You are in shock and hysterical bonding. Trust me, I was in the same place. Please write down for yourself all of the actions she has taken during this affair. Write down all the things she has said to you. Write down dates and times off all these things that are more fresh in your mind right now.

Hysterical bonding makes it hard to be strong with your wife. My HB lasted for almost a year, and when I came out of it, the confusion, anger and pain (more pain) came with it. You will start to question a lot of things and you will want information from your wife to set these things straight in your mind.

Gather as much information and details that you can get right now. Get it from her and from what you know now. Keep a log or diary or whatever. You will at some point need this. Ask me how I know.

Peace to you.

sleepylove -

I have. I have a running draft in my email of all the details, questions and things I know and what she has said to me and I am adding to it daily.

That said, I also have a full compliment of digital records, messages and email to fall back on as well.

In all marriages there is a dynamic, who does what. In ours, she stayed home, took care of the kids during the day. I worked. When I came home I spent time with my family, did all the things a father does with their children and I fawned over my wife. But she didn't "see" that, all she saw was her at home, doing nothing, or "everything".

This fact pattern is classic. There are dozens of cheating SAHM threads here with this exact same fact pattern. Utterly cliche. It all boils down to her thinking "me" rather than "we".

Still, explaining a thing is not the same as excusing it. People who go down that path are, let's face it, morally broken. Weak. If you knew that about her before you married her, that she is a morally and intellectually weak person with a low stress threshold, well below the normal stress that a couple with young children experiences, a person who will break the marriage if her low stress threshold is surpassed, choosing to fuck another man behind your back and lie to you about it, would you choose to marry that person? Because that is in fact who you are married to.

Particle, I agonized over the why’s for a long, long time. I felt they were really important so she/we could prevent this from happening again.

Went through all this in IC, researched it to death, talked about it to death.

I don’t know why, but one day I realized why my WW cheated on me, numerous times.

1. She wanted it;

2. The opportunity was there;

3. She didn’t care about or didn’t care to think of the consequences.

There was no aha moment, no great realization, simply, my WW was selfish.

Now, there are underlying issues that contributed to her actions (low self esteem, body image issues, family of origin issues, depression, etc.), the list goes on.

But when you break it down to its simplest form, my wife was totally selfish.

Mine has made good progress on herself in IC, mind you, it took an ultimatum from me to actually do it.

Take it easy brother. This is a long, very emotional struggle. My best piece of advise is stay away from alcohol, I didn’t, it did not help, at all.

Particle,

It appears you are so invested in getting back to “Pre A” that you are already making excuses for your WW and her behavior. News flash, there is no going back. You can pretend, rug sweep, take some of the blame, but nothing will change the fact that she chose to fuck another man for a year and lie to your face about it over and over again.

I hope I’m wrong, but I see this shaping up to be one of those 40+ page threads where you insist you know better than the collective wisdom of dozens of supporters, want to argue with supporters trying to tell you the truth, that your WW is different than all the rest of the WWs, that if you just minimize it, it will all go away. You would be wrong and most likely pay a much higher price down the road than you would pay now. It’s really discoursing to see what’s coming in the days and weeks ahead. Good luck!

To those insinuating or outright saying it. I am not a doormat, this is 20 years in marriage and more before, this is a person I have loved completely, cut me some slack for a bit? I am still not yet in the stage of actually understanding or comprehending ALL of what she has done. I may be slow on the uptake, but I am not a doormat. I understand that is coming, I am not sure how I am going to handle it. This might all be for naught. Once it hits, my feelings might change.

Your writing is outstanding. Your introspection is equally outstanding, really amazing. Anyone referring to you as a doormat has an agenda. You're doing great.

I agree with Tsert-

You are far from a doormat. You are handling it the best you can. Just know that this will be an unbelievably painful roller coaster ride. Consider all the advice you are getting, file it away and be prepared.

Totally agree with Tseratievig. We mean well, but it can be overwhelming. Take your time particle, do things on your timeline.

Go back to page 2 and read the comment from notanotherchance.

That is the sort of blunt talk that you need. Because I experienced the same amount of crying and "I can't believe I did that" sob story bullshit, only to see it never evolve into true remorse. Ultimately only leading to divorce.

One thing I do know is that 100% of cheaters go into self preservation mode the moment after discovery. That is what she is doing.

She lied to you for 1+ years and suddenly she's remorseful? Come on.

I am not calling you a doormat. But, for sure, you are in shock, still reeling from trauma (ptsd), and desperate for things to return to normal. There's no going back. The affair is here to stay, whether she's engaged in one or not. It is now part of your history.

You are asking for the experience of others. I have not seen one example here at SI in my 3 years of being a member of a WS suddenly "getting it" in the wake of discovery. I certainly did not happen to me. But I have lost count of the times I have read of a WS seemingly having the "epiphany moment" only to either switch back to being wayward or to learn the affair went further underground.

Take from that what you want.

Your feelings and emotions are going to get way worse before they get better, brother. Right now you are trying very hard to fast-forward the process. It just doesn't work that way. I'm over three years post Dday, a year and a half divorced, and I still have days when I struggle. So forgive yourself a lot.

Also, try a little humility. All of us here, and I mean ALL of us, at some point early on after discovery believed we knew more about our spouse than anybody else here could. But being on the outside and having been through the shitstorm ourselves, we can recognize the WS patterns better than the BS that is in the middle of the that storm.

Trust me, we're on your side.

Your WW needs to get herself into IC. Self analysis for a wayward is about as effective as a brain surgeon giving himself a lobotomy. And, to be blunt, you sitting on the sidelines cheering her on isn't ultimately helpful either. The two of you have different journeys in this. Some of that needs to be done separately, then later you can see what you can each bring back to the table. She should be leading the reconciliation, doing most of the work. She destroyed the marriage after all.

So, to answer your question from your original post, it's too early to forgive. That's just another form of rug-sweeping.

Good luck.

You’re doing well. Don’t fret too much about that. You’re being inquisitive, asking us questions, talking to her and communicating what you need from her, and figuring out what you need to be doing. This is a long road. It’s important to focus on you and what you need these early days. Keep that in mind.

I agree with making her write down every single time she was with or communicated with the AP while it’s still fresh in her mind. You don’t have to read it right now. You may never read it, but down the road you may want it and youd both wish she did it now because a year from now it will be harder for her to remember.

So I would ask her to write as best she possibly can, each time from the first day she saw him in class to what they first talked about, when they stayed after to grab coffee together to what she felt, what she thought, who she thought about, what they discussed, when they first touched and what they did physically and what they said to each other about the relationship.

If they were in class together 50 times over the last years she should try to write out as many of those times she can. If she lied about having to go out and spent the night with him or The fucked in her car or whatever, each time what happened, what was said, what was felt and what was thought.

At the very least, the purpose of this, if for nothing else, is to absolutely remove any specialness from it. To ensure there are absolutely NO SECRETS between them as to what happened.

While you are doing well to get into her “whys” and the absolutely wrong choices she made along the way, there are still many steps to your healing and the consequences and actions that need to be felt and taken by her in which to assist with that healing.

So I hope you will consider asking her to do this exercise, whether or not you read it, alone or as recommended with her, this month or in a few months or down the road or never, just having her do that will be important to the rebuilding process.

Otherwise just keep doing what you are doing. And keep posting and asking questions. And focus on you and watch the actions she takes. Again IC being the most important for her to start.

Not an excuse... there are better ways, but I am just trying to get to the why.

Unless you can climb inside her brain YOU will never realize the why. That is all on her. She is the only one that knows why. Be it boredom, excitement, coercion, sex addiction...etc, etc that is up to her to figure out & until she does she could turn around & find another lover tomorrow and that's why if you are hell bent on R & dealing her no consequences for her failings as a W she needs to find out the why now before you invest your efforts on a lost cause.

Sending Strength

Particle, I’ve been right there with you. Married 20 plus good deeply loving affectionate years, no indications-at all, of discontent, no “Red Flags”, just a total blind side to everyone in our lives. We have children, great quality of life, healthy, in shape, beautiful house, stability, happiness, educated professionals who thought we really had our shit together, the cute couple everyone envied...

Next thing I know, we’re the freak of the week on Jerry Springer.

I’ve read all the advice you’ve received so far and it’s all good stuff. Some advice may not apply to your situation but, continue to remain open minded-as you have. I’m really impressed with how your managing things thus far. It’s obvious your no stranger to taking control and navigating troubled waters. Qualities necessary for every successful entrepreneur.

There’s a few things you need to carefully consider:

1. Make sure you know the full depth and breadth of your WS’s betrayal. The level of betrayal. Some acts of betrayal maybe absolutely unforgivable by you. Make no uninformed decisions. Your going to be putting a lot on the line for this woman. You need to know what-exactly, it is you’re being asked to reconcile and eventually forgive.

There should no longer be intimate mutual secrets between these two illicit lovers. Mutual illicit intimate secrets lead to latent romance or romantic sentimentality.

This leads to a smoldering underburn of latent romance that can rekindle again with her old AP, or a new one, when things come into alignment, when conditions are just right. Also, these unknowns, any mystery, WILL haunt you forever. You’re imagination will go after any lingering nagging mystery and assume the worst. Get it all out in the open. Expose it and let it wither and dry up under the bright light. Things seem smaller and less threatening under bright light. It’s easier to move past knowns than it is to move past unknowns. For her, things will seem less sexy, romantic and attractive under bright light as it is revealed for what it truly is-was.

Personally, I would read all the texts. I would want to know what she said about me and our relationship. Might be incredibly revealing. Might be not as bad as you imagine or, it might be something absolutely unforgivable that poses a danger to you and your family and your future.

2. Your WS should proactively ditch the conspiring friend and anyone else who did not discourage this incredibly destructive behavior. They are not a friend of the marriage and they are definitely not a true friend of hers. This unresolved issue WILL haunt you. Her lack of action WILL cause resentment. She is placing you, her and your chances for R at great risk by keeping this idiot amongst you. This is a total disregard for your feelings, your feelings of security, your sanctity and the safety of your marriage. It’s extremely inconsiderate and Unremorseful.

This is where my Ex WW blew it.

3. Keep in mind this A lasted a year. She had many, many opportunities to end it. She must have had many scary close calls, wake up calls that she failed to act on. This had to take an emotional toll on her, a toll on her responsibilities, put your health and safety at risk, and possibly had a direct or indirect affect on family finances. And yet she continued. She didn’t stop until she was caught. Also, if she could cheat on you, she’s capable of cheating on him. Were there any others?

Timelines. They really help explain the whole evolution of the A, how it began, how it continued, how it ended, what exactly was betrayed, and what damage it caused along the way.

You’re in damage assessment and just palliative damage control mode right now. You need to know the extent of the damage so you can decide whether to save or abandon ship.

My ExWW seemed absolutely remorseful-at first, but she couldn’t sustain it. She became impatient. She wouldn’t make sacrifices. Began to resent her new situation. She felt sorry for herself more than I. It began to show after about 4-6 months.

I don’t know if you believe in unconditional love but, her efforts at saving the marriage must be virtually-reasonably unconditional.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 7:53 PM, May 30th (Saturday)]

Why?

Entitled, I am me! I deserve to experience the thrill of the chase, the secrets, flirting, the butterflies and the first kiss.

Selfish, Why can’t I be happy, me, me, me. I am a good mum, I took care of his family. I deserve to be happy.

Detached, BS doesn’t make me happy. He never does... BS head is in his bum. He doesn’t see me!

Compartments, This is my other life. Not my home life, I need to set up my other life. They are separate lives and will not clash.

Blind, BS won’t find out, he doesn’t even realise I am doing this one in front of him. BS will not see. BS doesn’t hear.

Delusional, if caught I can gaslight my way out of it. I am the mother of BS children. He will believe me. I will not get caught, I am too smart.

Blinkers on, If caught, BS won’t leave me, I am the mother of his children, I only have had one A, I am not a serial cheater.

Just my view

Buffer

I just read through all of this and have a couple of thoughts:

I would suggest bringing up, a post-nuptial contract as a condition for reconciliation significantly limiting her assets, should she cheat again. If she balks, take that as a warning.

Those saying that she's lying or not being honest are just looking out for you. Her actions look good. If this continues, she's likely truly remorseful. Only time will tell.

You don't yet know (i believe) exactly how this started. If this was the only affair, have there been other "almost affairs", flirting, etc? These questions need to be answered.

Finally, you're obviously a strong successful business man. The so-called "shit-show" of reconciliation is that you kept your word in a contract (marriage) while your spouse did not. You must decide to stay in the contract that you have already been "screwed out of", so to speak. You can reset, but you never forget. Your wife really has no repercussions as previously mentioned. And you are 100% correct that a revenge affair is a bad idea.

I wish you the best, and hope she's being truly honest. Good Luck!

It's no fun to be married to someone who thinks "they're the worst piece of human trash".

You obviously really care about your wife of 20 years, if she really thinks that of herself she needs to get her head straight.

To lie, deceive, cheat, sneak around, screw around on your spouse for a year - that is cold. Not a nice side to see in your spouse, but there it is. Perhaps counselling can give her the peace of mind to be comfortable 'only' being a housewife. Your marriage has a lot of work ahead of it (maybe years), make sure the two of you are all in to get it right.

When the anger hits you, make sure you can deal with it, take up boxing and punch the hell out of the heavy bag, something.

Good luck, and I don't think people here think of you as a doormat. I think they're worried you're going to rugsweep this now for heartache later. Reconciling, if we could call it that, so quickly with your wife often means the betrayed spouse isn't seeing things quite clearly.

It's no fun to be married to someone who thinks "they're the worst piece of human trash".

She's just talking, she doesn't really think this. She probably thought she was pretty awesome when she had two men for her to choose from for the last year or so.

And that either you were a fool or she was pretty smart to keep you in the dark for a year. If she had only tossed that hotel receipt the A would still be going on...

Things right now are looking like you are on track but I am afraid the time is coming when it all hits you again, when you think that you have it under control.

Do you have any reason to be sure this is her first and only affair?

Wow. Just so much to get through, to think through.

Unsure2019 -

It appears you are so invested in getting back to “Pre A” that you are already making excuses for your WW and her behavior.

I understand why you and others might think I am making excuses for her. I am a rational and logical person, I see a problem, I dissect it, break it into parts to find out what the issue is. That is what I am doing here with the advice, words and my thoughts in response.

I am NOT making excuses for her. I read back my own responses and I see why one would think that, but I am not doing that. Honest.

I hope I’m wrong, but I see this shaping up to be one of those 40+ page threads where you insist you know better than the collective wisdom of dozens of supporters, want to argue with supporters trying to tell you the truth, that your WW is different than all the rest of the WWs, that if you just minimize it, it will all go away.

You are wrong. That's a good thing. If someone tells me to divorce, I'll never recover, or she'll always cheat, or she never actually ever loved me, then yes, I will probably discount that, but all the words ARE getting through to me.

Again, it might seem like it, but I am NOT making excuses for her. Here or in my head.

squid -

I read your entire post just so you know but

Also, try a little humility.

I am ashamed, embarrassed, scared among many things, the way I organize my thoughts and write them down here, is not really an indicator of my self-esteem at the moment. If I am coming off with some hubris, it's unintentional and false. I consider everyone here to be an unfortunate "expert" and me the newbie on his first day. I bristle hard when someone tries to shock me into an emotion with "she fucked him for a year man" or "his cum inside her" and other things that don't really need to be repeated over and over, but that's just knee jerk.

Stevesn -

Others have talked about the need to discuss and document every little detail, I don't really think I am "ready" for that? I have the texts for example, not ready to face them. Is that ok, does it need to be right now? That's the hard part, I can open them anytime I want...

notanotherchance -

& dealing her no consequences for her failings

I have read about consequences for her quite a few times in this thread. I do not know what that actually means. What does a consequence for a cheating spouse look like?

Is it spilling and telling everything, is is her accepting GPS on her phone and a car tracker? Is she to do 100 pushups every night? If I believed this wasn't bothering her, what she did, I would not be trying at all. If I believed she truly was a monster, again.. Maybe I will believe these things soon, I am not sure.

RealityBlows -

Not to belittle or disparage anyone else, but your post was the most on target for me personally. Your post said "You are Me".

There should no longer be intimate mutual secrets between these two illicit lover.

What does this specifically mean? I need to know what exactly? Like did she do anal for the first time ever with the OM? Did she use a sex swing? I am not trying to be crass or snarky. I know what they did, we all know what adults do, even if it isn't on a DVD I can pop in and watch. I do not think I need those intimate details.

DO I really need that? (legitimate question)

Or does this mean something else like a secret place or something?

Personally, I would read all the texts. I would want to know what she said about me and our relationship. Might be incredibly revealing. Might be not as bad as you imagine or, it might be something absolutely unforgivable that poses a danger to you and your family and your future.

I am not sure words said to someone else to start or keep a sexual relationship going is any worse than the actual act of betrayal, so I do not see the point of using words she might have typed in a text before they got together, or to start the affair as relevant. She's already told me her "why" of sorts and I am pretty sure, because they were devastating to me, that nothing else could make me feel worse. Am I fooling myself here? Is this a typical response?

I mean, I understand that at some point she must have said or wrote the equivalent of "My husband sucks, never there for me, never does anything". I also understand that there will be some "can't wait to see your dick tonight" shit. I don't see how physically seeing that with my eyes serves any purpose. I already know it's there, it has to be there.

So.. again, Am I fooling myself here? Is this a typical response?

Your WS should proactively ditch the conspiring friend and anyone else who did not discourage this incredibly destructive behavior.

Good news on that front? I checked her FB and that person is no longer in her friends list. I do not want to talk about this person with her because she does not know I can access her FB yet.

I also saw a test the waters message she sent an attorney 3 weeks ago, she responded a week ago (I missed this one) thanking him for his response, no longer need any services. (to which he said "congrats, hope it works out").. She also removed herself from a group of really toxic people. Not specifically about this subject, just really toxic unhappy women.

So either incredibly crafty deceit or progress, I choose to believe the latter at this time.

You’re in damage assessment and just palliative damage control mode right now. You need to know the extent of the damage so you can decide whether to save or abandon ship

I think I am currently at 80% on this truth. These posts will hep me get to 100%, then I assume the shits really going to hit the fan. I think that's when I am going to hit the "angry" phase.

Can I ask... is the angry phase a make or break, like when the BS gets angry, is there a sign or a common theme among WS who are truly remorseful and not?

toughtotrust -

I would suggest bringing up, a post-nuptial contract as a condition for reconciliation significantly limiting her assets, should she cheat again. If she balks, take that as a warning.

That is a great idea. I read it somewhere before (here maybe?), but I am definitely going to do this. Any resources I can find for that, just to put a simple one together to hand to her and see if she whips out the pen? She's not a lawyer, to her it will feel 100% even if I do not actually get it done right away in a professional manner.

MickeyBill2016 -

Things right now are looking like you are on track but I am afraid the time is coming when it all hits you again, when you think that you have it under control. Do you have any reason to be sure this is her first and only affair?

Just the digital trails going back 12 years or so. Nothing other than that and her word, which obviously cannot be trusted.

To everyone else, I am reading... thank you. Please know my thoughts are often jumbled, I am often a little distraught when I come here and even though I am trying my best I am still stumbling my way through this.

Brother, some BS don’t want the intimacy details. Others do and need to know.

It can help them to put it all in perspective and help against being TT.

Some BS are told the sex was crap, OM was smaller, bad breath, never climaxed etc. Yet it flourish for months or years. So by getting the Time line done be it XXX or PG13 and knowing WW did perform certain sexual favours they they would never do with their BS. It helps them to put it in perspective. Hence some ask for their WW emotional responses to their OM as well. Just thing some need so to make the R or D call

The anger will flow like a king tide, it won’t be once or twice but in waves.

Brother, this is a tough situation.

My one concern is that your reconciliation efforts seem to be going awfully fast. There is a lot that is unprocessed on both of your ends that is going to come back hard.

It wasn't that long ago that she was sneaking around behind your back. Her guilt and shame, and your anger, is still in there somewhere smoldering. One day that rage is gonna come out, and she will one day tell you that she 'isn't happy' (because she so much guilt and shame eating away at her that she hasn't dealt with properly, even if she doesn't know that is it). Until she does the work with an IC to be a safe partner AND does the work to win you back, these won't go away.

At minimum she has to quit her job AND get rid of her toxic friend(s) who were encouraging her affair. This isn't about 'makin that evil bitch pay', it is really about her doing the work and dealing with the consequences, to help the *both* of you move past this really.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:22 AM, May 31st (Sunday)]