SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Good point ^^^

I’m guessing this is what happened: your WW was going along with life, confortable with her marriage and family, taking everything for granted (like most of us do).

Then someone came along, gave her attention and compliments, and she liked it. She hadn’t fell this new relationship feeling in 20 years, so she went along with it.

As her new relationship progressed, she realized this was wrong, but she didn’t want it to stop, so she came up with reasons why her marriage was bad.

After spending over 1/2 a century on this earth, I came to realize this crazy fact:

People believe what they need to believe when they need to believe it.

So she spent a year in a separate relationship, believing that she was in love and her marriage was bad. A year of consciously lying to you. This was no mistake.

It’s easier to believe in a bad marriage than to believe the reality that she’s a cheater, she is destroying her family, and hurting her husband and children. A cheater who is selling her body, sex for a few compliments.

She believed her fantasy so much that she was ready to leave it all for her boyfriend. But of course, he wasn’t interested, he didn’t want a girlfriend, just free sex.

I have read cheaters forums before. When asked: what would you do if you get caught? Women would say "cry a lot and beg for forgiveness". Your WW tears are not convincing and not useful, like you say.

She has lost her BF and about to lose her BH. It’s not about money and half of your stuff. It’s about feeling loved and protected. But she can feel safe. All she has to do is cry a lot and tell you she was bad (from her perspective)

Where does that leave you?

I suggest that you think about conditions, minimum set of requirements, for R. Non negotiables...

You love your WW. I bet that sometimes, you just want all this to go away, and things to go back the way it was. You also know that it’s not possible. So you have to be firm with what you need.

She has to face what she has done. Writing a timeline (it doesn’t have to have the sex part, if you don’t want to) and have her read it to you. All the lies... the time she went to the restaurant, the coffee shop... etc...

A Marriage is based on trust. You may consider R but what are you reconciling exactly? You don’t know.

She will need to rebuilt that trust. The story I wrote above? She will need to tell you something like that.

Ask her if she was in love with her boyfriend? Was she planning to leave you for him? Did she had friends and family that knew about this? That encouraged her to do this instead of coming clean?

Let’s hear the truth. No truth, no trust. No trust no marriage.

Hang in there. We’ve all been through this and you will to. Give yourself time.

You have been given good advice here. There is no such thing as an infidelity Bingo, and as much as you have tried to convince yourself in your first several posts that you won one, you must realize by now that you are being dishonest with yourself.

particle, there are a few things that I haven't seen a response to and I don't know if you missed it or you are choosing to ignore. I only bring these up as I think they are important for YOU to consider.

1. As others have pointed out, she came back to you AFTER her AP didn't want to commit. This means you were plan B. Now her opinion of that may have changed, but that is how it worked out. Have you addressed this with your WW?

2. You haven't read the texts yet. I know you are putting off finding out all of the details. If she is willing to give you the whole truth, I would strongly suggest you take it now. It's like pulling off a bandaid. Best to do it quickly and deal with the resulting pain. Also, you cannot forgive someone if you don't know what it is they did to you. People have recommended this to you to actually help you heal quicker and not prolong the pain.

3. Did she tell you she spoke to a lawyer? No. You had to find that out. She is still not being completely honest with you. She should have told you this. In some ways, you are encouraging her to lie by omission by NOT asking for all the details on the A.

I would suggest that you need to enact the 180. Not of spite or anger but to give yourself some distance so you can think. As you have stated, you have loved your WW for 20 years. And she is certainly using that to manipulate you, perhaps unintentionally, but it is still happening. I’m not telling you that you need to D. But you do need to be able to clearly consider your situation without influences. And that is NOT happening right now.

A very knowledgeable detective here is Australia said

“Assume nothing, Believe nothing and Check everything “

Very applicable in all facets of investigation and is very applicable to a BS looking into the actions, responses and words from a WS.

One day at a time

Buffer

...so to continue with my rant, I would suggest something like this, in your own words of course:

"WW, when you CHOSE to have a BF, you broke our marriage. You effectively divorced me without telling me. Now you want a new marriage....

A marriage is based on TRUST. I have no trust in you right now, you will have to rebuild that. You will need to tell me the truth on everything that happened.

You tell me all the truth, no matter how shameful to you and painful to me, I will consider R. You lie to me, I will find out and I will Divorce you. I would rather be single than put effort to build a new marriage on foundation of lies.

I will not spend the rest of my life monitoring your every move. So it will be your job to rebuilt trust. Crying and saying you are a bad person doesn’t rebuilt trust. Fix what’s wrong with you and rebuild my trust.".

Then ask the hard questions. You don’t have to R, but as long as she is not lying to you, you still have the option of R or D.

Good luck.

So...

This has been going really, really fast, too fast, everything has been spinning. It's like I am in a time freeze or something, I am losing track of time and I haven't slept. it feels like a week since I last posted. Just really weird.

I haven't read all the replies since I last posted yet because I wanted to get this out first. I am probably going to miss something so please feel free to ask me questions so I can get it all out and you all can help me see things I might be missing or misinterpreting.

I read the texts. I read all of them, pretty much right after my last post. It was crushing. I cried for about an hour solid and threw up a few. But now I feel "better"? The bad news is that everything one would expect to see between two people having a good time was there. Nothing vulgar, nothing dirty, just normal giddiness I suppose. The "good" news is that there was not a single bad word about me, there was no "I hate him" "can't wait to leave him" or even any discussion about her getting a divorce or running away with OM or anything like that. It was just a long litany of "can't wait to see you" and timing texts and shit like that. OM did give her advice on how to "hide" once so now I want to find the fucker and beat his ass (but won't)

Interestingly and I am not sure if this matters, maybe someone can chime in, the last few weeks+ seemed more distant, I mean they were still getting together but the texts were not nearly as flirty. Does that mean anything? It doesn't seem like she was just going to end it or anything but these was a lot less chatter. There was zero talk about them running away together or sharing an apartment or anything.

I also checked the CC records to see if she had done something on important days, like our anniversary, my birthday, fathers day. I was convincing myself that if I saw any activity on those days, it was over (not sure if that would have happened but it was emboldening for me to think that way) Nothing, she seemed to avoid this person on these events. That's not "good" it's just not "much worse".

I was not able to see how it started, it is clear that the affair started before they started texting each other. That said, it does seem like the texts align with her timeline she gave me. I also randomly sifted through all of the rest, and there are a lot of texts. Almost everything benign, some weird ones but nothing else and no one else and no one I could see also "in on it". It seems that facebook friend was the only one.

I was also able to map the days and times, it was random and not as much as I initially thought (like that matters at all) I think I would rather it had not been random and instead like an "appointment" if that makes any sense.

So that out of the way, I now know "everything" or at least as much as I can know and it's changed me.

Thank you to everyone who insisted I read them. I mean, fuck you, but thank you (lol).

I am doing all the bills and finances now, every single bit of it, she is forbidden to take/spend a penny without me knowing.

I am going to go see a lawyer immediately. (didn't tell her this)

I am going to insist she see a professional. (mentioned this, will reiterate tonight)

When she came in from her garden work, I asked her to open her phone right at that moment, I checked her messages right in front of her. Nothing untoward since that night. I also checked (which I hadn't before, phone numbers and who she had been calling or had been calling her)

I asked her to write me a letter about what she did, how she was feeling, detail as much as she can about the affair separately. (I am bringing this with me to the lawyer along with the credit card bills)

I reiterated the need for GPS and trackers on phone. (yes, yes, of course, I understand - she said eagerly)

Then I opened my notebook, the one I had been writing questions down in and was scared to ask... I asked.

I asked all of them and I told her not to cry, to hold it together because I needed to get it all out and if she cried or turned it toward her... She answered almost all of the questions, I still got a bunch of "I do not know" but in general I got a lot of answers and some of them were not at all pleasant.

I feel better, I still love her, I still want this to work, I feel she is remorseful, but now I no longer feel scared. I was so scared to lose her, so very scared, I think that has mostly passed.

is this a good thing? Is this progress?

She is doing and saying all the right things, there are no signs, there are no messages, no texts, no calls, she's coming home on time (call when she gets there, calls when she's about to leave), not going anywhere, she is open to all my "conditions" and understanding of them, focusing on me and it's all consistent. No signs of resistance or self defense or preservation. Other than the self pity crying that sometimes derails our conversations, it all seems "right". My timelines and awareness of the days are muddled at best, like I said, I am cramming in a lot of things into a short period of time. I go from crying for 30 seconds to feeling great. So I am bound to be making mischaracterizations, misunderstandings or whatever.

I am still hopeful but no longer scared, am I fooling myself still? am I missing something? Should I be really angry now? Is this a stage one goes through before calling it quits?

What a fucking whirlwind.

(sorry for the language)

Update: while I was writing this out, and previewing 100 times, I saw a post or two, some are saying that she went to OM and he wouldn't commit and that's why she is back. This did not happen. The night I kicked her out, she went to her friends house. I know this for a fact. She did not contact him other than to say it was over, I posted the text I believe earlier, that was their only contact. The reason I know this is a fact is that I saw her call her friend that night, she was crying, asked if she could sleep over, then because we were still talking/arguing her friend called and I saw her number pop up and she said "I'll be there soon" Her friend called yet again 5 minutes later, obviously worried. I have talked to this friend (she's my "half" friend), who clearly does not know she had an affair, she said "she really loves you, I am hoping you work it all out". I confirmed with spouse that she doesn't know. So while I guess it is possible it is entirely illogical with the info I have, she did not go to OM that night. She did not get turned down by roommate boy and come back to me. I am also going to insist she tell her "best" friend about the affair. She needs to feel some shame coming from somewhere other than me.

To the person who suggested my kids be told everything, the oldest does, he is an adult, I told him everything because he saw me distraught. otherwise I wouldn't have. Kids do not need to know all the details, they do not need to resent a parent. My kids mean the world to me and putting them through that purposefully is not something a good parent would ever do. To me that is selfish and self serving. My youngest will never know through my lips. If this doesn't work out, we will be two loving parents who do not hate each other making sure they understand it wasn't because of them. I explained it all to my oldest without a hint of resentment or hate, I told him that shit happens, humans be humans and his mother loves him and our family and nothing will ever change between us.

On a side note, I have never been to a forum or any place where people are so willing to help and offer advice on such an ongoing and consistent basis, this is really amazing. Thank you. I hope someday to be able to contribute to that side of helping people. I have definitely become more empathetic to others recently. (which is kinda shameful in itself)

Hey Particle

Just a random left field question, what are the ages of your WW and the POS OM?

Just the meeting at a educational facility, is he younger by a few years, or is there a larger age gap?

I ask, assume nothing, believe nothing but check everything.

Well done on reviewing the texts. I also like the idea with a concise time line and getting your WW to read it aloud in a reverse role as the BS.

One day at a time

Buffer

She could have used the friend's landline after she went to bed. Or left after the friend was asleep. Or maybe they used a messaging app as well, that she has since deleted.

She could be contacting him while at work .

Look for a burner phone.

Particle,

Read all the posts since your last post yesterday. You are making good progress, but something still smells here. There is definitely more to her miraculous turn around.

She could have used the friend's landline after she went to bed. Or left after the friend was asleep. Or maybe they used a messaging app as well, that she has since deleted.

She could be contacting him while at work .

Look for a burner phone.

Yes, and she could be having a gangbang with 10 guys in a work closet or she could be an alien from Andromeda...

At some point, as well meaning as everyone is, I have to go with my information at hand and my gut and intuition. They let me down before because I wasn't paying attention, now I am at full attention.

I am not going to entertain those notions, they do me no good.

I am not oblivious to all the ways someone can practice deception. I am not (any more) oblivious to what I know about my wife. If I had payed attention and pushed, I would have easily found out about this very early on. I look back and all the signs are there, I chose not to question my reality. She is not a great actress, I was a shitty detective, digital skills notwithstanding.

I am never going to make that mistake again.

Particle. I’m glad to see your update and you taken some building steps in your relationship.

I was too tired to write last night after getting caught up, but what came to mind that I wanted to tell you was that if you love your wife, which it’s clear you do, you have to let her work the rebuilding process and take the steps necessary to repent and show empathy and make hard decisions and take difficult actions.

You cannot do those things for her. And if you are ever going to reconcile and have a happy life together, a big part of that is the feeling that she has worked her ass off to change who she was and is no longer capable of making the destructive choices she did in the last year. She has to do this work if she will ever make you feel safe and loved again.

Just saying I’m sorry and I love you isn’t enough to rebuild on.

So asking her to do difficult things, like writing a complete timeline including what she thought and felt along with what they did is part of that important exercise to confront who she was and what she did. She needs to feel those things in order not to just bottle them up and suppress them.

None of us is saying you have to read what she wrote You May or may not down the road. Your decision completely. But if she truly wants to become someone worthy of being in a relationship with the man she her self damaged greatly, she needs to take steps like these.

Same with starting IC. Require it. Let her do the introspection she needs with a professional skilled in taking people thru this work.

And I agree she needs to expose what she did to more than just you. I’m glad your older son knows a limited version. Families need to work thru these things together and your wife should want you to have the open support of as many people as you need while healing.

Same with her friend. If her friend loves her too then she’ll feel supported by that person. Perhaps her friend should read the detailed timeline, or the IC, with the goal being that Those experiences lose their luster and importance. That they become unspecial, common and yes, even distasteful and disgusting.

Yes there is an element of embarrassment in this whole process. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. You cannot protect your wife from that. She needs to feel these things in order to process them herself.

So what I am trying to say, we know that you know how consenting adults behave when they are cheating.... but the things we suggest you ask of her are not just for the hell of it. The process, the work, that she does now are building blocks for your future relationship. It’s natural to want to protect the ones you love, even from themselves, but this is a case that you have to let go, even tell her, “I need you to confront what you did head on if I’m ever going to feel safe with you again. Trust is rebuilt one moment at a time. I need you to take these steps in order to rebuild that for me, otherwise we will never make it”

You are doing well particle, your eyes are opening, along with your ears and mind. We want you to find and get what you are looking for, we just know you’re not going to end up getting it if you don’t let her work thru the process to make it happen.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 9:18 AM, June 1st (Monday)]

Unsure2019 -

Read all the posts since your last post yesterday.

I intend to thanks. I am coming back to this sporadically as I have things to get in order.

There is definitely more to her miraculous turn around.

Please elaborate.

Buffer -

Just a random left field question, what are the ages of your WW and the POS OM?

He's younger than both of us, but close to her age. Not a child but definitely a man-child could have been part of the appeal, will find out more as I plan on pushing more on this particular topic very soon.

Stevesn

“I need you to confront what you did head on if I’m ever going to feel safe with you again"

I started this yesterday, she didn't initially understand what I meant. I basically said she has to come to terms with what she has done and I have to SEE that to move on. I couldn't really elaborate on what I needed to see, but it's a start, the letter will be interesting. I assume the first one she writes will just be all I am sorry and a bad person, which isn't going to cut it.

I get that now thanks to everyone here.

She is not a great actress

She lied to you,every minute, for a year. She's a better actress than you give her credit for.

I'm not trying to cause you more pain with my posts. My advice, comments, and suggestions come from hard earned knowledge.

A burner phone is quite common. Suggesting you look for one,is not meant to twist the knife. Neither is my insistence than she most likely contacted OM on dday. This woman was having an exit affair. She was heavily invested. Most wayward wives, in long term affairs, would have found a way to contact OM.

Almost all BS come here thinking their situation is different. That their WS is different. Most of the time are wrong. Maybe your wife is a unicorn. I hope,for your sake, she is.

I wasn't trying to piss you off. If you would rather I not post on your thread, that's ok. There are other members here who may feel they benefit from my advice. I do tend to be blunt. I don't sugarcoat. I feel a BS has been lied to enough by dday, that I won't pat them on the head and tell them it's all ok. It's just not my style. My advice is meant to be compassionate, but to the point. Sorry if I offended you.

Hellfire -

If you would rather I not post on your thread, that's ok

Hell no, keep posting. I read it all. My thoughts are raw, I respond raw. Reminders are good, but they can test my limits at the time and a filter is something I no longer have.

Thank you.

That said, how do I look for a burner phone if she has no access to disposable unaccounted for income? I get she might have a stash, but is there something I am missing? I can ferret out anything digitally but physically going t0o the store to buy a burner with cash... is there something I can actually do about that?

[This message edited by particle at 9:53 AM, June 1st (Monday)]

As much as you want to believe it, your WW is not ” back”.

Just adding to this. Coming back isn't good enough. She was living a lie during the affair and prior to it too. She probably thought she was a good person, and good people don't do bad things, so what she did wasn't bad. Never underestimate the power of rationalization.

If this affair doesn't change her for the positive, doesn't create an upheaval in her understanding of herself, then it means she has gone back to that lie.

There is no going back.

One things affairs can be good at, is blowtorching the bullshit away. The most brutally truthful discussion often happen post-affair. See that here all the time. You see "I wish we could have been this honest before" written in so many threads. This is the gift in the box full of darkness.

Fight for this, accept nothing less.

Sending strength!

Burner phones are very hard to find. That is why we suggest a voice-activated recorder be placed in her car or wherever she tends to be by herself. If she is calling him it will be from wherever she is not around you. Her place of work will be a tough one. But in her car is the best bet. She may pop out of the office for work on her lunch break and give him a call. The VAR would detect this. That's how I found out.

This comment:

She is not a great actress, I was a shitty detective, digital skills notwithstanding.

...minimizes the profoundness of what she did. And in some way it puts the responsibility on you. Stop letting her off the hook. I know you don't see it that way. But it's another form of rug-sweeping. I sense how desperate you are to fast forward through this.

This is a marathon. Not a sprint. She has a ton of self reflection and change to go through. It will take a lot of time and continued effort. If you are the one leading this then you are letting her off the hook. She will be looking to you for clues on how she should be acting. This is not what R looks like.

squid

That is why we suggest a voice-activated recorder be placed in her car or wherever she tends to be by herself.

Any suggestions on this? I mean I can look but if others have gone this route a recommendation would be good.

This is helpful, all the words are helpful, even those I do not want to hear, I didn't really give that any thought, now I am.

That said, how do I look for a burner phone if she has no access to disposable unaccounted for income?

I thought that too, my XWW's AP paid for the phone. Where there is a will there is a way.