SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

But ask those same people if they have the right to know their fiancee, or husband, has cheated before,or cheated in every single relationship, and 99% of them would emphatically say yes, they would deserve to know that.

It’s really not the same thing. What two unattached consenting adults do is not the same as cheating. So yes, you could likely get two different responses.

What you describe is often referred to as a "Chasing Amy" moment, from a movie of that name where the protagonist is dating a woman, Amy, who has told him that she had only ever been with women before and, to him, part of their "specialness" was her learning and discovering that she liked men, then he learned that she had been in a group sex setting like you describe.

I think when people are dating casually, sexual history is none of their business unless disclosure of an STD is needed. But if they are moving into a committed monogamous relationship and/or marriage, then a full disclosure is really important. It's important for a range of reasons. First, knowing everything about the history of the person you're going to commit to is important. Has he/she been a spendthrift? Fired from a job for embezzling? Expelled from school for cheating? Etc. A person is the sum of his choices; and prior choices can be a bellwether of future choices.

As to prior dating, there are issues of cheating, lying, etc. Did your girlfriend date married men? I'd want to know that. Did she cheat on a boyfriend? Etc.

Second, there is the fact that sexual history is something that people must come to grips with emotionally. It just is. Jealousy and similar emotions, though ugly, are real. When I got married to my current wife, she moved from her city to move in with me. None of her exes were in our vicinity, but several of mine were, and a couple of them were incredibly beautiful by any standard of beauty. When my wife was about 8 months pregnant we were in a grocery store and bumped into one of them. It affected my wife profoundly. She was having body image issues because of her pregnancy, and suddenly she's looking at a slim, athletic, beautiful woman whom she knew I had had sex with. Fortunately, I had fully disclosed everything before then, so my wife could quickly get past it.

When I started dating my wife, we were non-exclusive by mutual agreement. When we got together, we did not sit around and talk about the sex either of us had recently had with somebody else, but we knew each of us had recently had sex with somebody else and, as we were deciding to become exclusive, we knew everything about those people: who they were, where the relationship was, how it was ended. That was the first step toward our full disclosure. Turns out my wife's sexual "number" was a bit higher than mine, but my resume included more experimental and/or non-plain-vanilla sexual experiences than hers, plus I overlapped multiple sexual partners whereas my wife was more or less a serial monogamist. She was a bit jealous of some of the more experimental sex things I had done with other women and wanted to try many of them with me.

Cheating shows a lack of boundaries, and a causal attitude about sex. So does banging multiple guys at once, or multiple casual sex hookups. Also,were they the other man,or woman? Did they hook up with married people, etc. So, yes, they are related. Very much so.

If I ask,I have the right to know about my partner's sexual history, if I'm promising to spend my life with him. Period.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:36 AM, November 28th (Thursday)]

I have a casual attitude about sex when single, and would never cheat.

I didn’t say you didn’t have a right to know. If you feel you do, fine. Just saying I don’t agree with comparing cheating to single sex.

Also,were they the other man,or woman? Did they hook up with married people, etc.

I specifically said two unattached, consenting adults. What you’ve said here is obviously not that.

[This message edited by landclark at 8:40 AM, November 28th (Thursday)]

For the case in this article, we don’t know how the conversation went down when the husband asked her. He could have been indicating he would have judged her for it, and made her feel like she had to hide it.

I'm curious where "lies by omission" fall in people's moral spectrum. Let's say a woman is dating a man, and it's getting serious, and the topic of threesomes comes up in a discussion unrelated to their relationship (a celebrity scandal, for instance). He says casually that a woman who had a threesome with two men would be a deal breaker for him. She's had several, but it never came up before. Is it her moral obligation to disclose this, because he's made it clear that this is a criterion for him in choosing a permanent partner? Or is it none of his business, because it happened before they met, and she has every right to conceal it?

I guess as a wayward, "made her feel like she had to hide it" sets off alarm bells for me. My BH and I are processing lies that I told that deprived him of his agency in deciding whether to propose to me. There are facts that I withheld that could have changed that decision. Don't get me wrong: I understand that cheating is very different from sex acts that take place with other people before a committed relationship is established. But is it acceptable to hide known deal breakers because you know they will be a problem? What if this unfortunate discussion occurs after you're already married?

Note that I'm not trying to jump on anyone's point of view or pick a fight. I'm genuinely curious what people think from an ethics standpoint.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I think anyone who wants to know their partners sexual history,has the right to know. To say it's not their business just blows my mind.

I disagree with the "slut shaming" diagnosis. Of course I agree that men and women should be held to the same standard. However, it is ok if you personally think 4 men having sex with 1 woman at the same time is going too far. Some people would see that video and be turned on, others disgusted. Both reactions are ok by me; people have different standards regarding sex.

BSR, yes, she should tell in that situation. He has the right to make an informed decision about his future spouse.

It's a matter of honesty and respect. Making the selfish choice to not disclose is making a choice for someone else, one they know the other person would want to know.

Why start a marriage on a lie? Why go into something,knowing if your partner knew the truth,they wouldn't choose to be with you?

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:54 AM, November 28th (Thursday)]

BSR, I think if you’re asked point blank and lie, that’s an issue. I wasn’t excusing her from lying, just saying I could understand how it could happen. If you know/learn something is a deal breaker for somebody and you’ve done that thing and withhold it, I would say that’s also an issue.

I think when we commit to a relationship we have some obligation to disclose certain things (illegal activity and such). I think we should answer any questions honestly about our past. I don’t think we’re obligated to turnover a play by play of everything we’ve ever done in our life. That just seems silly to me. To me that’s not lying, outright or by omission.

In life we are responsible for our actions. Our actions are our history.

It is no different than a credit or criminal history. When two people decide to move forward in a marriage it is not any different than a business transaction/merger in eyes of the law.

Thus it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to claim that the entire history of each person is NOT subject to review (call it due diligence if you prefer it).

Hence, the reason why martial fraud is codified both in state and religious laws.

If a party feels "ashamed" well frankly that is too bad, but their failure/actions cannot be hidden from an innocent party (in this case the spouse).

In my own case, the XW liked to played on both sides of the proverbial fence. It was my right to know and her failure to disclose....fraud.

@hellfire. Don't forget about the possible debts. People see it as a given that you can ask pretty much ANYTHING from political views to debts, yet sexual history is now a no go.

Why are facials bad? Threesomes/orgies? Anal? I get that in our society there are some taboos, but what makes anal sex bad but vaginal sex okay?

You're lumping quite a few things together here. First of all, why if it's not bad is there a need to not be upfront and honest about it and instead to try and hide it?

Secondly, anal, oral, etc are very far removed from threesomes/orgies. The former usually only become a problem when a man/woman was willing to engage in all these things, put in all this effort, be spontaneous, kinky, etc with all kind of strangers and former partners yet thinks their husband/wife should settle for boring once a month pity sex.

The second one is about values and preferences. You absolutely have the right to engage in these things if you find willing participants. You, however, do not have the right to demand people for whom this is a no go accept you regardless.

I'm curious where "lies by omission" fall in people's moral spectrum.

Lies by omission are just lies. Let's turn this on its head. Is it okay for someone, man or woman, to lie and deceive their partner? To know they have boundaries and deal breakers, which you have violated and engaged in, in the past. All so you can get them to commit to you and bring about a relationship that otherwise would not have come to be. To fulfill one's own selfish desires and take away agency and choice from the person one supposedly loves. All for one's own benefit. And if so, what kind of relationship would this even be, since from the very get-go it's based on deception, selfishness, and worse?

Personally I'd be honest about such things. It would obviously risk the relationship and any future me and a partner might have together. But I would not want to start a relationship in such a way and by taking away her choice and agency.

[This message edited by Marauder at 9:35 AM, November 28th (Thursday)]

Whatever a person feels is subjectively relevant to her/his decision whether to commit to another, that is what should be disclosed. Some people hold strong religious beliefs under which a woman must be a virgin to get married. If a woman is considering marriage to such a man and she is not a virgin, she has an obligation to tell him. And vice versa.

I personally don't harbor strong "slut-shaming" feelings about premarital sex. Both my wife and I had active sex lives prior to marriage, and as we were getting serious we talked about them. Sexual history, if not disclosed prior to marriage, has a tendency to come out during the marriage in trickle truth fashion. It's a bad thing if, years into a marriage, a spouse learns by happenstance about something in her spouse's sexual history that would have been a deal-breaker had she known about it when deciding to marry. What if you learn, 10 years into your marriage, that your husband had been caught as an adult having sex with a 12-year old cousin, but the family swept it under the rug and charges were never pursued? What if you found this out when your daughter -- your husband's stepdaughter -- was turning 10?

A person's sexual history is absolutely the business of his or her partner at the point where the relationship is moving to a serious committed relationship. So is his/her financial history, educational history, and professional history. Honestly, it beggars the imagination that anybody would disagree with this. It's pure wayward thinking to harbor the alternate view.

What kind of boss sends video around of an employees current wife ha ring any kind of sex, regardless of how many people are involved or the acts themselves?

Said by someone who obviously doesn't work in a male dominated workplace. A lot. I could probably have 10 of these videos by the end of the week if I asked my coworkers for them (AP's and hookers, they'd punch me in the mouth if I asked for videos like this with their wives).

To the question, is it any of your business? I would think "no", but, at the same time, I'd share whatever with a new GF/wife if they wanted to know. And "whatever" for me includes some way "outside the lines" stuff that would be difficult/embarrassing to share.

Honestly, it's hard to know what I'd accept from a GF in the future. I never asked my wife any details about her sexual past, she offered up "it was awful, and not all that interesting" as her version of it. After the affair, much like the OP, the truth came out. She was very sexual, doing just about everything with guys before we met. And repeated that with the AP. She'd denied me things for our entire marriage that I'd asked for and she did with other guys on the 1/2nd date. So, in a way, I guess I'm probably the worst person to ask this to because my view on it is terribly (and probably forever) skewed. Dating again, I'm not sure I'd ask, but, at the same time, I'd never accept anything less than what I wanted sexually (which is a very long list and includes a lot of typical "nos" from women, or at least those in the dating (as compared to the A world, where that list is typically "yes") world. That's terribly unfair, I realize that; and I guess I just would have to accept it, if it's a "no" it's fine, but I'm going to assume (as I should have with my wife) that you've done it before with other guys and it's "me" that's the no, not the particular act/request. Which, of course, wouldn't work for me.

It's funny how a woman's former promiscuity is supposedly none of her fiancee's, or husband's business.

Or it's "slut shaming" to ask/be upset about it. I'm all for people having free will to do what they want. I'd never impinge on a woman's right to have sex with whoever she wants, including sex for money or banging the whole football team in a single night. Don't care, knock yourself out. But if we're dating, yes, it does and would matter to me. Maybe it shouldn't. But it does. And I'd be lying to say otherwise. Especially if the same woman said "Yeah, I did DP every weekend in college" and then, on the other hand said "No, I don't do anal anymore". Again, totally her choice and her right to make that decision. But equally my choice to say "I understand, but that doesn't work for me". That's not slut shaming, that's just making decisions based on data.

I do consider it my business. I have no interest in being with a woman who's been gangbanged or who was perfectly happy to do certain sex acts with past partners that are off-limits for me. The former is just gross and the latter is unacceptable for me because I'm not going to commit to someone who doesn't want to give me their A-game, sexually and otherwise.

she is entitled to say she no longer enjoys those acts.

Exactly! I really enjoyed using cocaine when I was younger. I don't use it anymore. I don't have any desire to. I don't think I would enjoy it now. My life is different. If my fch asked me to use cocaine with him now, am I obligated because I have used it in my past?

ibonnie, those things are bad because of religion. It's wasting the precious seed. That's not the kind of sex god intended. Badness is a human construct.

To whomever asked, the reason those things are not advertised is because other people will slut shame women for doing them, or possibly gay shame men for doing anal. Why are people so concerned with the sex lives of consenting adults? What I do behind clothes doors with another consenting adult is no one else's business.

Loukas, what you are talking about is irrelevant. If any of that was such a concern of his, he should've disclosed it before marriage. You know, the way people disclose that they have "saved" themselves for M and expect their future spouse to do the same.

I don't think anyone has the right to know someone else's personal business. If a question is asked and not answered, one certainly has the option of ending the relationship.

My fch asked me about my sexual history. Apparently, I declined to answer (I don't remember the specifics of the convo). He chose to let it go. He could've chosen to walk away. That is his eight in that situation.

The video story has all the hallmarks of internet fiction and gets passed around in forums with various versions all the time. The “boss” element is a new wrinkle; I’ve seen other versions. It seems intentionally designed to rile people up and pit sides against each other like what seems to be happening here.

That said, I mean come on, of course a partner’s sexual history is relevant. If you want to know and it’s important to you, you should know. A partner can ask and the other partner can say they don’t want to talk about it. It’s then the asking partner’s choice if they can live with that. Asking is not an invasion of privacy, it’s common sense. Knowing whether a partner was highly promiscuous and enjoyed gang bangs is absolutely relevant to the relationship. Pretending it isn’t is whistling past the graveyard and no different really from wayward compartmentalizing.

Saying no to the query is also the right of the other partner.

I would say if you want to know, ask. You don’t need to know every position, but an understanding of sexual partner count and what types of sexual activity is well within your rights. If they say piss off and start quoting some grievance studies lingo to you, you can say “have a good life, best wishes to you” and go find a different partner who isn’t afraid of radical honesty and transparency in a relationship.

There are plenty of attractive and compatible partners available to both genders within reasonable geographic proximity. No need to get hung up on one who is too ashamed of their past to even talk about it with someone they ostensibly want to spend the rest of their lives with.

Falling in love with someone doesn’t require throwing reason, common sense, accountability and executive brain functions out the window.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:35 AM, November 28th (Thursday)]

Cheating after the fact is not the same as not disclosing all the nitty gritty details of your sexual past. I wasn't given a choice of whether or not to be in a relationship while my fch cheated. That was done without my consent.

That's why the only issue here is the lying. If prospective spouse asked, "Have you ever done anything like this?", and the answer is that you haven't when you actually have, that is a problem. If it was just a general convo about # of sex partners, age at first time, # and length of LTRs, I don't see a problem.

Exactly! I really enjoyed using cocaine when I was younger. I don't use it anymore. I don't have any desire to. I don't think I would enjoy it now. My life is different. If my fch asked me to use cocaine with him now, am I obligated because I have used it in my past?

I would certainly want to know if my partner had abused illicit drugs. It is relevant. Again, the partner can say piss off to the query and I’d be able to say “have a great life.”

This isn’t hard.

I don't necessarily care to know details but would expect truthful answers if I ask a question or two.

And for me? With a committed partner, I would be fine sharing any details they ask me for. I try my level best to be honest with people, even if the truth might not paint me in the most flattering light.

To say that it is none of an SO's business... No I don't agree with that.

Here’s something I’ve been saying recently:

“If it’s a deal breaker for you, it’s a deal breaker for me.”

Works in every situation where a partner has a boundary, wants something and the other partner won’t give it.

one thing being a betrayed spouse has given me is the ability to be much colder, more hard-nosed and more rational about relationships. I said this to my WW recently when she had the whole panic attack meltdown over my insistence on the polygraph.

Works like a charm. And if it doesn’t work, then you don’t need to be with that person — because they are unsafe at any speed.