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I did discuss a post nup with my lawyer. He ultimately discouraged that route. I guess most divorce attorneys in our state shy away from them due to historically mixed-poor enforcement in court. I understand some of your concerns about my course of action, but having a concrete, enforceable agreement in place is the only way I will be able to mentally relax enough to move forward with other relationship issues. Lawyer thinks the agreement will stand up in court taking into account her lengthy history of infidelity. She is welcome to challenge/negotiate. I agree, this process should be purely business and, speaking only for myself, there will be no hard feelings. I have been involved in countless prior business negotiations with more material assets at stake and understand how they work. I doubt she will take this to a lawsuit as all of the data concerning her infidelity would become public knowledge. I will admit that I am better at separating my feelings and emotions from business transactions than she is...so only time will tell how she responds. Gotta hop on another plane so I will update again later.

A1,

I know there is a lot of back and forth here on how you are handling things but let me express to you why I think you are hitting a home run so far.

Not to rehash your story but to put things in perspective, You have just discovered an affair by your wife which is so horrible, it shakes me to the core and I wasn't the one who was cheated on. My incident with infidelity is a complete joke compared to yours. You were not only cheated on but you were betrayed as your wife abused her position as a SAHM and used the resources you broke your ass for in order to facilitate am long term affair with a SAHD who she treated better than you and perhaps loved more than you and who she used the bulk of her sexual prime years to give him her best. It only ended because he died. Those are years you can't replace.

I have seen people turn homicidal, suicidal or have mental breakdowns over less. Instead, you were composed enough to not rugsweep, to research and discover the truth largely on your own, absorb the truth, emotionally distance yourself, have a proper but difficult confrontation, were able to get her out of the house and go no contact, and enabled yourself to start the healing process.

You have been respectful enough not to use your daughters as weapons against your WW, you have kept yourself busy with activities, you haven't tried to retaliate, you have gotten legal representation, have drawn up a good, solid legal separation (I feel perhaps pending divorce though my gut may be wrong there in the end) and every single post on this thread by you has been respectful and informative. You haven't come here pouring your heart out with a woe is me attitude but instead have shown incredible discipline and respect for the posters here.

I see the rest of your life as being bright, prosperous, and successful. Whatever you do, think forward and consider how you will feel about things in the near and distant future.

Please continue to keep us informed.

Happy hunting this weekend

[This message edited by Western at 11:32 AM, November 29th (Wednesday)]

A1,

You have a clear head and competent counsel. Hell, that's 80 percent of the battle.

I’m happy to see you doing well, AO!

[This message edited by Drumstick at 6:38 PM, November 30th (Thursday)]

AO - don't forget to feel all the feels on this. it's easy to muscle through when you analyze and strategize for a living and treat this like a business transaction. take care of yourself.

Just happened on to this thread, quite the story. As brutal as it gets. B R U T A L. You can really see that by how posters are getting angered by your story, and thinking about it off-line. They/we are emotionally invested in your outcome. Phrases like, "If it were me..." Whew! Some random thoughts, no real advice...

- I believe the majority of infidelities are never discovered. You got "lucky" in discovering yours, although I also bet (with no evidence to support it other than experience) that those two pictures triggered something lurking, a memory tucked away. Makes you wonder how many other millions of others haven't been discovered. You look at people differently now, no?

- People live incredibly complex internal lives, and your wife's was as multi-layered as they come. You were a supporting actor in her life play. He was too. If what you said and what she said is true, she hit the bottom and stared into the abyss of soul-destroying narcissism, and clawed her way out when she finally looked into a mirror and saw The Truth of Things. I'd guess (again without evidence) that she sort of knew she was living in grace, with you not knowing. Yet she kept those pictures. Part of her life story. And she kept that envelope. Tough one.

- Would she have left you if he hadn't died? It doesn't matter. Enough had already happened. He died.

- Horrible things said about you to OM and other people? Friend network covered for them? BTDT. Yet you have a devoted wife now who has your back. BTDT too. How to reconcile those things? Starting point is just to accept they happened. It happened. She said them then, she acts this way now. Accept they are both truths. She believed them then, she believes this way now. Can people really do that? Yes.

- Have you ever had a friend who in earlier life was an arch enemy? The kid in the neighborhood that you fought with, shit-talked you, then older (even much older) came around to becoming friends with? Had the person who never really knew who you were, until you actually got to know them? Your story smacks of that to me. I know, you were MARRIED to her, but you know what? You certainly didn't know her, you know that 1000% for sure now. She probably didn't know you either. None are so blind as those who choose not to see. This mess has likely blowtorched the bullshit off of both of you, for better or worse. Something to ponder on.

- On the D or R thing, pure statistics suggest a betting man put his money on D. The majority of As where the man is the BS end in D, period. Whatever. As someone else said, the paths run parallel right up to the point where you make the choice. As someone else said, this puts you in control, and survival is all about control.

- You're an engineer. You just got dropped into the stew of the crooked timber of humanity, a nice, up a little too close and personal view of it. Take the time to look around, and really look at people. A lot to be learned about what makes others, and yourself, tick. Insight into the Truth of Things. Use it.

Spent some time at work and then went home to tidy up before the girls arrive tomorrow. Looking forward to their visit. We are going to fry a turkey, so wish me luck.

Try spatchcocking the bird next time. It involves ripping out the backbone and pounding on the sternum until it cracks. Instant therapy.

You've been heard, shipmate. You're doing fine. You'll be OK.

Sending strength!

I did discuss a post nup with my lawyer. He ultimately discouraged that route.

AmbivalentOne

IMO you need to get a divorce but leave the door open to redemption (i.e. eventual R and remarriage or just being friends).

Your families attend church which is good. This has played a part in all of this.

First it made the affair and being bad all that more delicious. Even if you do find your soul mate you can’t keep up the intensity that they did for nine years. Sneaking around in the church basement or in your marital bed gave the affair high octane jet fuel.

Second it was her penance after her AP died to put her family first. Her therapist basically told her to "go and sin no more" and “it’s your burden to bear alone.” She embraced the concept because it fit with her upbringing and way of thinking.

Now you’re at redemption. You're the only priest that can give her earthly absolution. If you do she can ask your daughters: “Your father forgave me why can’t you?”

Use it. For now don't make a declarative statement that you forgive her or that you will never forgive her. You need to keep possible redemption out there as a carrot at least until your divorce is final. Once it's final you can do whatever you want.

In other words to get the best terms in the divorce she needs to be on probation with hope of an acquittal until the divorce is final.

[This message edited by Michigan at 3:22 PM, November 30th (Thursday)]

how is it going A1 ?

En route home. WW emailed asking to talk more about living arrangements this weekend. We are meeting tomorrow afternoon.

I wish I could figure out how to look at her and only see the woman I have been married to for 28 years instead of the stranger in those pictures and emails. I have read about couples going through “hysterical bonding” after d-day and just can’t imagine it. I don’t want her to touch me, much less have sex with me. I have never put much stock in counseling, but I really hope the IC I am meeting with next week can help me figure out how I feel about her.

Thanks again for everyone’s thoughts and support. I will post again when I get home.

Double post

[This message edited by AmbivalentOne at 10:03 PM, December 1st (Friday)]

Your not the only one. I never got the hysterical bonding thoughts either..ever. went totally away from her from the start.

So your not the only one there.

As horrible and despicable her actions were, she did put in the hard work to improve herself. I also feel while she may have fallen in love with the OM, he was probably in it for sex. He never took the step to leave instead he played her for nine years. Had that accident not happened it might still have been status quo. You and the other OBS in half a marriage with the WS still cake eating. Again that is conjecture, the could have and would have of life. You seem to have a plan and I wish you well.

A1,

I’m so sorry for what you are going through, my heart aches for both you and I.

I’m fresh out of infidelity, and my SAHM had a DEEP EA with her SAHD, so some similarities between our stories. You had the severe pain of finding some very painful stuff, and I had the pain of my STBX rubbing the affair in my nose. It’s all horrific and bad, it’s all betrayal no matter how you look at it (you can read my story).

I don’t have much advice for you, as I’m still fresh and still riding the emotional rollercoaster, but your story touched me, and I felt I needed to voice my support and tell you that you are doing great! We are all proud of you, and support any decision you make.

You know I often wonder, and I reflect on my situation as I say it, what’s harder, having suffered through the horrific pain of infidelity, and then 1) having a remorseful wife on your hands or 2) a wife that has zero remorse or guilt for that matter. It sounds like you are faced with option 1 and I had option 2. If you had asked me earlier, I would have probably said that my option was harder. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that having to make the decision yourself is probably a lot harder. The decision was made for me, I just had to take it. If I didn’t take it, I would still be living in the hell of limbo, or what Bigger calls inactive infidelity.

So good luck to you, my friend. You have hard decisions to make, which is unfair given all what you’ve been through already. I hope you find peace somehow…

Hi A1,

I've followed you from day one but have never posted in your thread. First, as you know already, you really are handling this the very best way possible. I am a BW and I feel BW and BH handle their situations just a bit differently (although with similar goals in mind).

I post today because of what your most recent comment stated:

I wish I could figure out how to look at her and only see the woman I have been married to for 28 years instead of the stranger in those pictures and emails.

I am just over one year out and had a recent setback (major TT resulting in another dday) while in (false) R. I am struggling with this issue as well. Over in the General forum, squid started a thread regarding this subject. That thread has been one of the most relevant for me since joining SI last year. Here is the link:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=614911

Perhaps it will help you as well. Being that you are still in the beginning stages of this shit storm, it may be of help to you now, rather than a year from now. I wish you peace and strength to get through this journey and make it out to the other side!

Hi Ambiv

Been a while (16 pages) since I last shared thoughts on your thread as you were getting good advice already I thought I’d sit back. Didn’t want you to get overwhelmed. You’ve been doing great.

Mostly I wanted to send good wishes when you meet up with WW today. I know the weekends can be slow here and I wanted to recognize this important step. I’m sure it will be difficult.

You probably don’t know what you want yet and that is understandable. It’s good that you are starting IC. Truth is it may take years of therapy before you know what you want. I know that seems daunting.

The question I guess for today is in what form do you want to do this work? Separated and no contact? Separated but spending time together? Living together but separated? Living together but as husband and wife trying to R.

I assume you’re not ready for the last one. But I wanted to list them all.

When you meet, I think I would mostly listen to her. You don’t have to do the work, that’s all on her. I think if it were me I’d mostly convey the pain she has caused, the realization that you no longer know who she is, and that you don’t know how you will ever compete with the memory of someone that is no longer here.

She needs to be be able to start convincing you that you were her one true love, and not him, if R will ever be possible.

That work for her may start today depending on where her mind is. If she truly believes that he was toxic to her marriage thru the therapy she has already done, then maybe she has a chance. But if she still pines for him, wonders what might have been, then it will be an almost impossible task to convince you that life in a M with a ghost as the 3rd party can be a happy one.

The only thing more I’ll say is that if you do have any thought that R is a possibility, then you can only know that if you let her start proving herself to you. It can start very slowly, but you can’t do that without at least some level of contact.

Right now you only hear her in your thoughts, so it’s not surprising that you can’t imagine touching the person who speaks to you in your mind. Even if it’s meeting just once or twice a week, she needs a chance to have her real voice heard. You don’t know if what she will say and do will match what you think she will say and do.

Again, that’s only if you want to explore the possibility of R. If you are dead set on D, then I’d understand staying NC and working that thru with a lawyer and your IC.

Anyway sending you thoughts of strength. Make sure you eat and drink before you meet with her.

Take care.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:56 AM, December 2nd (Saturday)]

The honey trap can be dissapointing when your not in the mood to sew any seeds. I reckon it's going to take more processing time. I am curious to see what she says though.

En route home. WW emailed asking to talk more about living arrangements this weekend. We are meeting tomorrow afternoon.

I expect there are going to be two components to this meeting. Logistics and Emotional. The logistics are the stated reason for the meeting. Is she still living with her sister? I expect she wants to move on from that out of consideration for her sister's family.

The living arrangements will be the bridge to the emotional component. Because unless she needs money, she is capable of finding her own alternate living arrangements. Prepare for the meeting to be about returning home. To you. To the marriage.

Two questions for you:

Is this your first physical meeting since the separation?

Did your separation agreement proposal have terms for living arrangements?

"Logistics"...easy. But I believe the real reason for the meeting is the emotional component.

Kudos/props to you for being strong enough to meet.

I hate to be the bad guy here but will be as gentle as I can.

First, excellent post by Stevesn.

Next, I fear a trap in todays meeting.

I would hate to see A1 lose progress by having a weak moment annd then regret it shortly afterwards.

He will never know if he will be the eternal Plan B.

Can he get over the fact that his wife was essentially married to another guy at the same time as him for 10 years ?

There is a thread on the wayward forum regarding WS who do things for the OM/OW that they didn't to for BS. It is an interesting thread.

Only A1 will ultimately know what he wants but I am encouraging him to tread carefully. Among the options never discussed here is whether he can ever recover from this massive betrayal since he can never unsee what he saw.

Also, is he better off trying to recreate a relationship with someone who caused so much damage or to retire and live out his later years with someone new

1

Just adding a different perspective here

A1 just wanted to wish you good luck today!!

When entering tough negotiation situations, it’s good to keep in mind that there is no need to take any decision at that time. Go meet her. Yes – the pretense is logistics, but it will be emotional and there will be some communications about how final or decisive the decision to separate is. That’s OK – no matter what you think she does have a right to know about her future, just like you have a right to decide your own future.

Decide to yourself on this: The meeting is to hear ideas. There will be no firm decisions. If it’s only logistics then list what she wants, get your POV over but then tell her you will e-mail her your decisions later. On your behalf, you will not make or take a single decision with her near you – you will always give yourself time to think, analyze and decide.

If it turns emotional then take it on. Face the emotions. But be aware that any decision – R or D or whatsoever – taken under the emotional pressure you will be in – isn’t likely to be the correct decision. You are perfectly entitled to tell her you need time and will get back on your own time on any decision.

Take care to meet in a place where you can stand up and leave.

Remember – you have a lot of control.

Yes Western, he can’t undo what he saw, not any more than any other BS can undo, unthank or unsee what they went through. Yet we have couples that have reconciled and we have couples that have divorced. What AO can and can’t do is in his hands IMHO.