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But therein lies the dilemma. Walloped, your wife could be going onto the third year of the affair if they were not caught. And isn’t that the worst part of this? Just like a1 never knowing where he stood, it’s almost impossible to evaluate on those merits IMHO

First Christmas in 33 years we won't spend together.

This gutted me to read. I wish you peace and strength during this time. Take care of yourself and lean on your real life support.

Hi A1. Well, nine pages ago I promised to stop circling like a shark. Just dropped in to offer what I hope is constructive. I thought I would discuss something you have alluded to a bit. I work with a lot of engineers. There are two things I have noticed. The first is that most every engineer I know has a real desire to understand the issue down to the most basic fundamentals. They can really get to the solution of a problem by learning all they can about all the bases.

Though you are shell shocked now, I suspect that you have or will begin to analyze and try to ferret out what really happened and why. Here is the great trap. With adultery there is no rational explainable reason that is either acceptable or satisfactory. In truth there is little more than they wanted to, liked it, and were sure they were clever enough not to get caught. But they rarely will admit to that. So there is a quest to find the real reason, be it childhood, mental illness, and of course the big one - it's your fault. Try not to go down this rabbit hole. Understand that people risk everything for the shallowest reasons.

The second thing about engineers is they don't act without understanding all possible permutations of each step ahead. Since lives are literally on the line, this is a good trait. But in trying to prognosticate future behavior of flawed people this can lead to indecision and inertia. So in dealing with emotion you most often need to take a leap of faith. Or go with your gut. To illustrate this point, consider that with 9 years of counseling and self reflection your wife's default is to ask you what she can do to make it better. She is clueless. So don't worry too much about every step that needs to be considered in fixing this. It's an art, not a science.

In short, you seem to be doing everything right so far. As you cool down, try not to over analyze your wife by assigning motives or reasons beyond the fairly obvious. All that will do is give her a convenient buck slip to use on your heartstrings.

And don't be afraid to trust your inner compass. It may not be scientific but it is usually the safe way to proceed.

See you in another 9 pages or so.

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 9:38 PM, December 5th (Tuesday)]

What jumps out at me is that her IC is telling her that she needs to understand your pain.

To me this means that your wife lacks empathy. empathy in the ws is the leading indicator if true R is possible.

What I am getting at is your WW has not changed at all. She continues to see things as they impact er rather than how they impact you or someone else like the kids.

She villianized you for nine years, I read her IC telling her she still has not changed.

I guess that her counselor suggested that instead of telling me though, that she work on our marriage and become the wife and mother she should have been during the years she stole from us. “Bear the burden herself,” are the words she used.

#Bigger

There is only an assumption that the IC suggested she didn’t tell AO.

AO's description is so specific that I could never reads it as him making an assumption of what was discussed in IC. When AO says "I guess" I take it as a figure of speech used to distill down what his W told him.

Yes: Who knew, what did they know, when did they learn it, what did they do with that knowledge, what did they advise her.

This is not so much to get inside her head during the adultery and the years of "bearing the burden herself".

It's to find out who should be cut out of your life completely, or restrictive boundaries established (e.g. the SIL, for the girls their Auntie).

Those betrayed deserve the information so they can make there own determinations about associations with those who had knowledge. That right was taken away from them for years.

I guess that her counselor…

Those are the words AO used. If that‘s not an assumption then I don‘t really understand the concept of assumptions…

The e-mails, photos and so on were on a disused computer. There were no memento’s. Earlier on some posters were “assuming” WW visited OM grave and all sorts of stuff. Nothing to support that “assumption”. It begs to ask why she kept the journal and how was it written. I think the reason might be because of an inevitable confession and/or confrontation. But that’s only an “assumption” on my half, sort of like your “assumption” on what his words mean.

Bigger I don't recall anyone "assuming" that his wife visited OM grave. I do recall people wondering (myself included) if his WW visited OM grave (at any point from the time he died through DD) and that if indeed this was the case that A1 might want to know this.

Hope you do find some help in IC.

You have had a horrible experience.

Your actions are admirable.

Did she ever try to stop the A? If he did not die, she would have left with him?

Has she had any other affairs? Hope you get a good attorney for the D.

Walloped, your wife could be going onto the third year of the affair if they were not caught.

Absolutely. There, but for the Grace of God...

Or, it could have lasted two more months and then she might have ended it on her own. That’s why I’m not playing the “What if?” game. There’s no point. We can only deal with the facts as they are.

However, while A1 will never know for certain if her affair would have ended had OM not died, 9 years is not a flash in the pan. Regardless, it was what was. She did not seek out somebody new, she spent time working on herself and her marriage, and she never left A1. Small victories, I know.

My point wa that this is all subjective, and while A1’s wife may have a very different worldview today given the years of therapy she had (and kudos to her for doing that), 9 years is a very long time. To me, it’s hard to reconcile that length of time with her comments now that say that she’s horrified by her own behavior for that many years. Better to own what she did, full stop. She’s sorry for it, it was over for a long time, she’s been in therapy and had recommitted herself to her marriage, etc., but none of the “I can’t believe I made all those bad decisions for 9 years straight.” It’s just too self-serving and doesn’t have the ring of genuineness to it. So, careful A1.

A1 - If you haven’t been directed there yet, in the I Can Relate forums, there is a thread for those dealing with LTA’s. It might be helpful for you to hear other folk’s perspectives and perhaps gain insight into their WS’s mindset.

Best.

I agree walloped

Booyah

Go back to pages 8-14 of this thread and search for grave. Some posters indicate very strongly and/or directly that WW must have gone to the gravesite. Some quotes:

>Do you still visit the grave as much as I know you used to?

>I'd suggest that you try to independently determine if she has an annual remembrance by gravesite flowers or newspaper memorial. Lacking independent verification, I believe you should ask her if she visits the grave, places flowers.

>She goes to his grave, she pines for him.

>grave-visiting frequency and last occurrence

I have an agenda on this thread.

That agenda is simply to keep AO heading out of infidelity. He has two paths to get there; reconcile or divorce. I really don’t have anything invested in either paths, it’s totally his call.

Right now, he’s not really on either. In his case that’s OK because – as I have repeatedly pointed out – he has time.

Yes – the affair was for a long time. But it always remained an affair. That in itself tells me a lot. But the length of the affair, the pictures, the acts, the secrecy, innuendo about this being an exceptionally bad affair … all that stuff that is SO CHARACTERISTIC for ALL AFFAIRS in some way or another… still leaves AO with 2 options out.

I think hammering on there really only being one option out (as some posters have been doing directly and indirectly) or insisting that all divorced BH are happy… that’s limiting AO options and it makes the relevant posters irrelevant IF AO decides to reconcile.

“I can’t believe I made all those bad decisions for 9 years straight.”

What the typical human does, is never introspects at all. Instead, they stay the course into the grave. They stay in the shallow end of the pool where instant gratification lives.

I guess I'm a rarity, but I can look back now at many things I've done, and really dig in on them, and it just makes me grimace. Like, WTF was I thinking? These are multi-year things too, where it took something to give me the chance to actually look back, and then the willingness to actually do so. And I've made changes because of it, some of them radical.

In fact, I bet *anyone* who had the courage to do so and went through intensive digging about their past would end up finding things. Finding the truth about a lot of stuff. Stripping off the outer layers of BS driving so much of our lives, so to speak, and getting to the heart of things. Who am I? What is all of this stuff about? If they are at all honest and open, they will change.

So, I accept A1's statements about his WW, and am sorry for both of them. Because no matter what things are today, as we used to say in the Navy, "you can't unfuck a goat".

I agree with Bigger. AO's main goal is to survive infidelity. His WW has had 10 years of which to work on her own version of surviving infidelity, by becoming in AO own words a great wife. Where as AO's journey has just begun, how long of a journey is of course up to AO.

The what ifs could carry on for another 10000 posts which would not be constructive for AO's situation as there is no sure way to confirm anything now except for the fact that a long term A occurred and the OM died 10 years ago.

Ultimately its AO's decision whether to R or D, which by all accounts he is handling this issue as he see's fit.

I will be here to support AO no matter what to survive infidelity.

Sending strength my man

Of course.

R or D only matters to the extent that both are paths for AO to get out of infidelity, which by all accounts he is anyway at this stage.

As I’ve said before to others, personally, I never found posts trashing the WS very helpful or saying this was the worst betrayal or those shouting for D. But similarly, I didn’t find ones sugarcoating things helpful either (not saying anyone is, btw). To me when I was going through my early days, the posts that were most valuable were the ones that were strategic in nature, advice about actions to take, and an evaluation of my evolving situation that highlighted potential pitfalls and analyzed conversations, etc., so I could make the most informed decisions possible as I tried to move forward. The decisions itself didn’t matter. What mattered was the objective outside view from SI members that kept me honest and on track.

By that measure, if AO’s wife says or does something positive, it should be called out. Her years of IC, her journaling, her work on the marriage after the affair, etc. These are all good, important things. By the same token, if she says things that sound a bit self-serving, while it’s to be expected, those should be called out as well. The goal is to provide an outside POV that perhaps sees things in a different light so AO can process and utilize that information toward forging his own path.

The goal is always to support AO. Which path he takes is entirely up to him and for him alone to decide.

I agree. As I've often said here, whether she's had an emotional affair, a one-night-stand or a case like this where she effectively outsourced him for nine years... at this very precise stage in time A1 is dealing with things in exactly the same manner as anyone else. His near-term goal is to disengage and find a feeling of empowerment.

Once he's disengaged emotionally and feels like the decisions being made are *his* then he can evaluate his unique variables for his unique position.

[This message edited by Sharkman at 1:53 PM, December 6th (Wednesday)]

We haven't heard from A1 in a while.

[This message edited by Western at 11:13 AM, December 6th (Wednesday)]

perfect succinct post from Sharkman.

T/j again. Sorry.

Booyah - You've been a member of SI for four months. I cannot find that you've ever posted your story. Are you even a BS?

I'm a bit curious as to your agenda here on SI, because you sometimes see to have one. It always make me suspicious when someone here won't share his own story.

Sorry for the t/j

A1 - I hope you're still doing okay. It's certainly good to take a break from here for a few days. Maybe polk around a bit on other's posts and see what else is on the site beside this gargantuan thread.

And take all the time you need in deciding whether to R or D. She will wait. If she doesn't, then you definitely have your answer.

Take care.

Booyah - You've been a member of SI for four months. I cannot find that you've ever posted your story. Are you even a BS?

I'm a bit curious as to your agenda here on SI, because you sometimes see to have one. It always make me suspicious when someone here won't share his own story.

Funny....I read his latest post before I read yours, and I agreed with his post.

I, too, have never posted my story here, but I have elsewhere. I don't consider what I'm doing here as any kind of agenda. And from his last few posts I don't really see one on his part either.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 3:49 PM, December 6th (Wednesday)]