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I mostly listened. I asked a few questions, but tried to focus on logistics. Like Christmas, caring for the animals when I have to leave town, coming by the house to pick up more clothes, etc.

This is good. Try to stay focused on the practical realities for now. Do not become a sounding board for her feelings. When she tries to talk about her therapy just tell her to stick to the matters at hand. You can tell her if and when you want to know what she is doing you will let her know.

Wether or not she can be coached into having empathy via journaling and exercises is not your concern right now. Her bringing up her issues works against you getting emotional seperation.

IMO you need to get to a headspace where you can decide what you want, based on what she did while her lover was alive. Not what she did after he died. Again IMO that was centered around her grief and loss. Not you. She had no other options at that point. Thus it should not hold much weight.

Stay strong. Compared to many BH you are doing extraordinary well.

You’ve done a great job to put yourself in a position where IC can truly be effective. While your situation sucks you’re handling this like an absolute champ.

The IC will be a critical part in helping you combine logic and emotions. To this point, it’s important to ‘click’ with them. While you don’t know what to expect you definitely will know deep down if this person gets you and is capable of drawing you a roadmap that is reflective of your ethics, morals and beliefs.

We’re rooting for you!

Have you suggested counseling for DDs? This is traumatic for them as well.

I salute you. You're handling things in textbook fashion.

A1 you mentioned "she hates herself for making all of the terrible decisions she did during the affair". I know you also mentioned that you mostly listened.

Did she try to give you some insight/reason as to why the affair? She supposedly did all of this counseling afterwards so I would think she should know "why" that is unless her counseling was solely to deal with her grief losing OM.

I ask this just because I'm curious, and you might not really give a damn at this juncture and it will be a question of yours at another point in time.

You continue to handle this whole mess extremely well. Sounds like your daughters are both in a lot of pain as well (which is certainly understandable). IC would be a wise move for them as well.

Your wife has a real knack for finding good IC‘s.

I think the one she had post-affair and the one she has now are on track.

But that’s not the issue.

The issue is what you want.

Once again: On this issue, your greatest asset is time. There isn’t any need to decide anything right now but there will come a time where you need to commit. But you have time…

It’s good the separation agreement has been signed. If this goes on to D then it’s good she had an attorney go over it. That might weaken any chance she has of demanding amends. By having a professional go over it and point out faults she sort-of forfeits the ability to claim duress or ignorance.

About your daughters. I think we need to keep in mind that they are 20 and 22. They are grown-up and can deal with their own issues. I think offering to pay IC or some help would be fine, but we have dealt with people their age dealing with their OWN infidelity here. Focus on yourself, they will be fine.

There is one exercise you could try:

There are 2 ways to move forward. I guess we can all agree on that. You can Reconcile or you can Divorce. Try this: Wear one idea for a couple of days. For the next 2-3 days then think you are divorced. Think what changes that would incur? Think how that would work out. Then for a couple of days think R. What would that require? What changes would that incur? It’s just a mental exercise, but what it might help with is listing what it is you fear in either case.

Ever see that movie about the guy that got his arm stuck under a rock? The one that eventually self-amputated? Well… I once listened to him tell his story and I experienced this immense “aha!” moment when he described how he felt after reaching his decision. It’s exactly how I felt when I decided that FOR ME reconciliation wasn’t a possibility. Once I had that moment then there was sadness, pain and all that. Even remorse for having to decide not to R. But never regret. Just a sense of peace and purpose.

For ME that was the correct decision. We didn’t have kids and “only” just over 5 years history. A long marriage, assets, pension, children… these plus the fact I am I and you are you mean your decision can be either R or D and that decision – if correctly taken – will be right for you. I just think that if it’s correctly taken it will give you a sense of peace and purpose.

A1,

I think you are doing a very good job of handling things, and that you are getting excellent advice here. Hopefully your IC will be good, and can help you begin to work through the emotional side of things.

What Bigger says about time being your greatest asset right now is exactly right. You have time to process everything. There are no textbook 'right' answers in these situations, because a lot depends on you, and how you feel once the initial shock and emotional turbulence has settled down. That takes time, and you should allow the process to run its course, in conjunction with your IC and any advice from here that is useful, because that is how your solution will develop and mature into something that feels right to you, and something that you can live with. You may well experience various mood swings and changing emotions, which people tend to refer to as 'the rollercoaster', but that is all part of the process.

The exercises suggested by Bigger would be good to try, and your IC may have others that can help you mentally and emotionally test-drive various options to see which 'fit' you, and which do not.

I also think that what Bigger and others suggest about you focusing on yourself and your process is very good advice. By all means check that your daughters are alright, and perhaps ask if they want to talk, but they are basically adults now, and they have every right to make up their own minds about what has happened. Similarly, I think you are very wise to remain neutral in terms of your advice to them about their relationship with your WW/their Mom. It is really something that they have to fix between themselves. Your focus needs to be on you.

I do think the holidays are a tough time when you are going through problems, but you will have your daughters with you, and one way you can add something positive would be to plan some nice activities for the three of you while you will be together. Perhaps you can involve the girls in that? People do love to plan nice things, and you would be surprised how it can lift your spirits. And it sounds like the girls are likely to be very supportive of you, so why not make this Christmas all about the love between you, which is a nice, positive thing to focus on.

It may be a 'different' Christmas, but that does not mean it will not be good. Enjoy being with the girls, and chat with them about how their lives are going, and what their hopes are for the future. It will actually be a great opportunity for the three of you to talk about things that maybe you haven't in the past. It sounds like you will be spending Christmas with two wonderful and supportive people, A1, so that's got to be a positive thing, hasn't it?

Whatever long-term conclusions you reach in regard to your WW, you will never be in an 'all is lost' situation, because you have those two wonderful young women in your life, with all of the love they have for you, and all of the love you have for them. As I said above, why not make this Christmas all about that? That would be a pleasant and positive thing, wouldn't it?

Our thoughts are with you, A1, and we are all wishing you the best.

[This message edited by M1965 at 7:25 AM, December 4th (Monday)]

again, A1, you continue to handle this situation well and efficiently. I give you all the credit in the world with you poise and your ability to think decisively.

It is also a credit to you that both of your daughters show character, fidelity and care so much about you.

I know everyone here keeps telling you to take your time and do what is best for you. I am not going to repeat that as that is the way you have been since the start and I would expect nothing else from you as your ability to be patient and think through every aspect of your situation has been your strong point from the very start.

Continuing to wish you the best.

Please keep us updated and what is on the agenda now ? The next step ?

[This message edited by Western at 9:08 AM, December 4th (Monday)]

A1

The Holiday season is time to be thankful. You have been given the gift of perseverance. You are up to handling the curve balls that life throws at you. You have two loyal daughters who love you. You are in great health. You have a great job. You somehow have 50,000 anonymous internet friends rooting for you with every fiber of their being.

If infidelity breaks us in any way allow it to break you for the good. Be able to see the good in life even though it may seem that all of it is all crap.

What your wife did, does, didn’t do or plans to do does not define you as a person. It never has and it never will.

Yeah, you know, journaling is an important tool for people to make cohesive sense of what is jumbled in their mind. Especially if done over time.

I just have to say though that it is a pretty fvcked up mess that someone has to journal putting themselves in someone's shoes to try and understand the pain they have inflicted. The fact that someone has to do that is telling to me. Because at the end of the day, she is just writing about a hypothetical scenario. Too easy an exercise.

Have you asked her if the OM had not died, would she have left you for him?

It sucks to be second choice. 9 years!

So sorry.

I keep reading your post here and I admire the way you are handling your case like a pro despite your pain that only other BSs can comprehend and feel. The way you are dealing with your case has probably set a very good example and standard for many others I am sure. So , please keep us updated as often as you can. Sending you strength and patience...

Have you asked her if the OM had not died, would she have left you for him?

It sucks to be second choice.

FWIW, my take is slightly different. From A1's description, OM was pretty much a total loser. I suppose one could view being second choice to a loser as really awful, but A1 is clearly not a loser and to me it seems more like an indication of how completely messed up A1's WW was. If someone's chooser is that defective, it really doesn't matter that much how she ranks her sex partners.

They had a long-term affair. From what I read there were no serious plans to divorce and set up shop together. From what has been posted both AP had the time to plan and implement if they had wanted to live together for eternity in the Sugar-Castle riding unicorns into the sunset. The fact they didn’t is really common in infidelity. It’s all fantasy and why risk a good fantasy by exposing it to reality? I don’t think AO was Plan B, but he definitely was Plan-the-base-of-a-secure-but-not-so-interesting-daily-life.

Well, it might not be exactly what she intended, but the WW's life has certainly gotten a lot more interesting.

What A1 was robbed of was the exclusive exploration of new levels of intimacy and sexual adventure with his WW. She spent all of that for cheap fantasy while A1 got less than he deserved for his hard work and commitment.

I hate the movie Jerry McGuire, but there is a phrase that I love that describes what the OM did, and that is "shoplifted the pooty"

Right Jduff. Thats what I have been saying the whole time. There are multiple levels of betrayal here, the pinnacle of it being the cheating but other parts include lost opportunity and disrepect

A1 how goes it today ?

A1:

Is your wife in therapy with the same I.C. she used 9 years ago?

Did your wife confide the affair to anyone in addition to her sister and her complicit friends? Did the AP's wife have any knowledge of the affair?

If she confessed the affair to your clergy, do you know if they supported her I.C.'s advise to keep it hidden or did they encourage her to be honest and reveal it to you?

Good Luck!

wow great post from Motod. Rare post.

Good questons. Answers ?

I went back to what AO says about his WW therapy:

Apparently, it took her a year in therapy to get over her affair. Then she began to realize what she had done to her family during those 9 years and she said she hated herself. She ditched her old toxic friend group. She went to therapy weekly for another 2.5 years. Her counselor apparently forced her to do exercises imagining how she would feel if she found out I had done all of the things she had. Made her visualize me physically doing those things. Made her write down everything that happened through the affair (that is what was in the envelope). I guess that her counselor suggested that instead of telling me though, that she work on our marriage and become the wife and mother she should have been during the years she stole from us. “Bear the burden herself,” are the words she used.

There is only an assumption that the IC suggested she didn’t tell AO.

If you look at the parts about the exercises the IC made her do then I see a very competent IC. A pro-marriage, pro-accountability IC. If I were to make any assumption based on the above, I think the IC probably did suggest she tell her husband, and knew some confrontation was inevitable at some point. Therefore, the WW had the journal.

Like I said earlier: WW has a knack for finding good IC.

A1,

I haven’t posted before as you seem to be doing tremendously well already and have received hundreds of varied pieces of excellent advice.

I generally stay away from commenting on what a horrible person someone’s WW is...I never found that particularly helpful when I was going through my early days here...but I feel there is at least something important to highlight.

You said about your WW.

She says she hates herself for making all of the terrible decisions she did during the affair.

And then,

I will say, she seems genuinely horrified by what she did and how her actions are affecting the kids and me.

Sounds great, and frankly I could say the same thing about my wife. But to me, and this is just my personal opinion, it kind of rings hollow in light of the affair lasting 9 years. This wasn’t a ONS or even a few months whirlwind affair like my wife’s. Nine years is a helluva long time to now be horrified about what she did.

At no point during those 9 years was she horrified? Think it was wrong? Recognize what horrible decisions she was making? And it didn’t stop her.

I don’t bring this up to trash your wife. But to help you keep things in perspective. Remorse is great, at least true remorse is. But in my limited experience, words don’t mean too much once the affair is found out. It’s what she does. So, grain of salt and all that.

You’ve got a lot to process, and so far you’re handling this mess like a champ.

Wishing you the best...