SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Spock,

Would it be fair to say that there is a clash between your internal logical self and the external (WW)dynamic that you cannot control?

Its the adult version of the foot-stamping old "this is not fair" routine that just will not go away.

Maybe you've also had a well intended marriage counselor wringing her hands at your stubborn refusal to accept, try to forgive, and move on. Maybe your wife also is whole-heartedly contrite, reformed, trying, etc. Still, that is somehow not enough. It doesn't take away the images in your head, that's for sure.

The alternative? We all know. Shuck a long term marriage that you don't really want to give up on, rip apart an exacting plan, existence and assets.

What's it going to be, your life or your pride? You don't get to keep both. Is this sounding familiar to you? The impossible choice.

Don't want a divorce, but don't want to live with the specter of infidelity in you bed with you the rest of you life. I've decide that for some percentage of us, this is like accepting a disability. Its going to be with you, and you just have to tough it out. Not a rosy picture.

cinder555

cinder555

Would it be fair to say that there is a clash between your internal logical self and the external (WW)dynamic that you cannot control?

I think what you get correct is the clash itself and partially the fact that it involves external dynamics. Yet, I think the conclusions you made are oversimplifying. Besides, my main struggle is not between external dynamics and internal ideals, but the clash between internal ideals and my internal truth (and honor)! If we talk about the clash of internal and external forces so it's once again my internal truths vs. external expectations as well as the clash between all of them v. that which is good for my soul. It's like her infidelity caused a world war inside my mind. My wife's actions fit into the clash but it's not necessarily the clash itself. You can partially find the description of this all in my reply to HouseOfPlane

It's the adult version of the foot-stamping old "this is not fair" routine that just will not go away.

I don't think so. That's not some unfairness that some capriciously small child won't accept but some hard to accept injustice. It's also not some random injustice. It seems that there is a plan behind it. And effort put in it (I'm pointing here to the injustices inflicted by the system and not those by my wife's actions although they too exist). People fought injustice all over human history. And at times were very successful in changing it. I don't know, maybe injustice can't always be changed. This is the realization I had and was trying to express in my respond to HouseOfPlane. Yet, if I have to accept its consequences why further cooperate with it? Isn't it only cementing this injustice?

What's it going to be, your life or your pride?

Pride!? Why? I can't where it has to do something with "pride". Is my pain, a pride issue? Is my hurt, a pride thing? IS MY SUFFERING A PRIDE TOO? Is the betrayal, the humiliation and injustice, just a matter of pride? No, I don't think it's pride and it's even not ego.

You don't get to keep both. Is this sounding familiar to you? The impossible choice.

I think the choice is possible. The struggle is not within this impossibility. The clash is between within the willingness or unwillingness to accept the price; between meeting my own needs and meeting the expectation of others. It’s between choosing what's good for me and what is just; it's between the high promises of the ideal and the futility of real life; it's also about the willingness to realize what you did was useless. Again, it's what I wrote to HouseOfPlain.

Don't want a divorce, but don't want to live with the specter of infidelity in you bed with you the rest of you life. I've decide that for some percentage of us, this is like accepting a disability.

It's to use his kind of analogy, it's not necessarily what I'm thinking, so for me staying in the marriage could maybe described as being a life time prisoner of war; disability it's when you were injured, survived a the battle and was able to rebuild a new environment which has as less triggers as possible and away from it. .

[This message edited by MrSpock at 1:23 AM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

Thank you, Valentinessucks. While swmnbc's post was by far the best analysis as in regard to my wife's action, your is probably the best as in regard to my mind so far

Spock, I am so sorry for the pain that has brought you to us. The support here is amazing, isn't it?

Thank you. It is.

I think the bottom line for you is that your wife has been "sullied" by another man. It's a deal breaker for you.

It's like you can maybe read my mind better than me! That everything is like it has been hitting you on a very primal level. It's not that I really don't know it. I do. I knew it right from the begining. I was even not in limbo. Yet this is another struggle between my internal truth and external expectation from me (actually less those of my wife but by the others). And on behalf of that as you say there comes the strugle between that which is good for my soul and that which is just as well as the other struggles I mentioned in the previous responses.

We can reference the thread started last year by SpaceGhost. He knew straight away that he could not live with his wife's infidelity. He predicted a future living what you are living now, and he divorced immediately.

I respect those people very much! And yet, is it always possible? Especially to divorce immediately! Could there be other considerations?

The fact that you post here bearing your soul is testimony to the fact that you are feeling restless in your situation. I think you are trapped between what is just and what is right for your soul.

You're right. I'm restless; I'm suffering. Yet, my problem is not as another poster put it to sort my feelings. I have deeper questions. Some of them maybe existential! Those are the answers that I'm looking for and try to sort! So that at the end I may find an overall healing to all! And your observation is true. It's indeed one of the traps

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[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:37 AM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

One thing I've learned since having infidelity tear my world apart: we human beings are adept at "painting pictures" to suit our reality. I am one that was not able to do this in my relationships. EXCEPT, the fact that it was always my moon eyed love that I saw reflected back at me when I looked at my husband. He is a flawed human being, like all of us. I was well aware of all of the typical human flaws and was consciously able to put it all aside because we had that "special love." That love wasn't fanciful in real life. MY love for him was fanciful. He held the upper hand, emotionally, in our marriage because I had him on such a pedestal....thought he couldn't possibly lie to me.

Back to my point of creating a picture of our relationships in order to cope and be happy. It changes, it comes to light, when there are challenges in a relationship. That's how we cope and deal with reality. I suspect that you are like me: black and white, intense, somewhat consciously unable to "create an illusion" in order to cope and be happy.

I could paint that picture for you. I could tell you how to think of this situation in such a way as to recapture the essence of your marriage. I'm desperately trying to paint the picture for myself. I'm almost there, I just have to firmly believe his story (not allow conjecture, suspicion, etc. to muddy the waters of the facts that I have). When I can finally take a deep breath, sigh, and firmly believe events as he says they unfolded....I will be able to fully embrace my mooned eyed perspective again.

You know why?

Because we are all flawed human beings.

My husband is doing the work (and then some!).

With your present perspective, are you not just painting a picture that traps you in unhappiness?

Go into a dark room and ask yourself this: am I still with her only because of the assets?

If you can truthfully answer yes, then does that mean you are selling your soul?

If you answer no, then you owe it to yourself (and your wife) to try to paint a new picture.

Well said, Valentinessucks, well said. Again I agree with you on many of your observations and although you corectlly described me (as in comparison to yourself) there are some very important nuances and differences in how we see the things. I want to adress it all but have to go now. Later, I will tell you what I think about it.

Is my pain, a pride issue? Is my hurt, a pride thing? IS MY SUFFERING A PRIDE TOO? Is the betrayal, the humiliation and injustice, just a matter of pride?

Isn't it, though? Or something related to it? Not to downplay it all, but you (and I) suffered no direct physical injury, no broken bones. We did suffer an attack on this thing we've constructed called our self, which blew up this narrative we've constructed called our life story. But what else is there other than the self? We will go to the ends of the Earth to defend it. Yet it is mostly illusion.

It’s between choosing what's good for me and what is just; it's between the high promises of the ideal and the futility of real life

The ideal is what you live, the real life is what we mostly get subjected to, completely out of our control. I mean, how much of your circumstances do you really control? You could have been born and experienced life at any point over the last 10,000 years, and been born and eaten by a Sabre-Toothed Tiger at the tender age of 11. Being born around now, the majority of the 4 billion people on this planet live in places not so internet-friendly, you and I could have been any of them, living in the world's biggest slum in Nairobi or the son of royalty. Our wives could have been any of more egregious members of the SI wandering spouse catalog, or they could have buried their secret desires and took them to the grave, or never even had a feeling in that direction, although did you know 51% of ALL BOOKs sold are romance novels? All books sold.

There are deep currents below a placid surface.

I have deeper questions. Some of them maybe existential!

They are very much existential, Mr. Spock. Like it or not, whether you R or D, you've had the cover blown off of the superficiality the we mostly live our lives behind, and can now dig deep, deep, deep into what makes you tick, why it hurts so much, what it is that is actually being hurt, all of which lead to the ultimate questions of who am I and why am I here.

A fascinating book if you're interested is The Book of Not-Knowing by Peter Ralston. It's purpose is not to ease the pain of living, but to understand its source. Yet once you know its source, its power is diminished.

Live your life in truth, my friend. Sending strength!!

HouseOfPlane

On this, I completely disagree with you . Not because there are no true points, some of them are very true, but because it's paints only a partial picture of reality (if to use VS terminilogy) and not the whole truth. In the bottom line and especially in this case it is not a question of life as standing opposed the pride. The pride mentioned by the other poster stands vs. something different. In an hour or something I'll be back on the computer and I'll answer you both.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 8:28 AM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

HouseOfPlane

On this, I completely disagree with you.

That's cool.

My thoughts on forgiveness, if they help, are that it's the act of letting go of the anger, hurt, and bitterness. It doesn't mean I was wrong to feel angry, hurt, and bitter, and I grant myself as much time as I need to face those feelings and let them go little by little. It's first and foremost an act of kindness to myself to let them go because I can feel their heavy weight and I can't drag them around forever.

And the truth is, to be healthy, I need to let them go whether or not I choose to remain in my marriage. Divorce would remove the person who made me angry, bitter, and hurt, so maybe that would be a quick reprieve, but ultimately those feelings must be faced and worked through. Whether I reconcile as openly and optimistically as possible, or whether I divorce and commit to as amicable a co-parenting relationship as possible, I must choose to let go of the hurt for ME. And I must choose to let others in, whether it's my husband or a new partner, because I value intimacy and I'm smart enough to choose an appropriate partner, and I'm strong enough to weather that partner hurting me.

Have you read Marcus Aurelius' Meditations? They give logic to emotional issues. Here are some quotes that made me think of your situation:

“Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart.”

“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”

“How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it.”

“The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are.”

"Begin each day by telling yourself: Today I shall be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness – all of them due to the offenders’ ignorance of what is good or evil. But for my part I have long perceived the nature of good and its nobility, the nature of evil and its meanness, and also the nature of the culprit himself, who is my brother (not in the physical sense, but as a fellow creature similarly endowed with reason and a share of the divine); therefore none of those things can injure me, for nobody can implicate me in what is degrading. Neither can I be angry with my brother or fall foul of him; for he and I were born to work together, like a man’s two hands, feet or eyelids, or the upper and lower rows of his teeth. To obstruct each other is against Nature’s law – and what is irritation or aversion but a form of obstruction.”

“Receive without conceit, release without struggle.”

“Perfection of character is this: to live each day as if it were your last, without frenzy, without apathy, without pretense.”

“It is not the actions of others which trouble us (for those actions are controlled by their governing part), but rather it is our own judgments. Therefore remove those judgments and resolve to let go of your anger, and it will already be gone. How do you let go? By realizing that such actions are not shameful to you.”

“No man is happy who does not think himself so.”

“Live out your life in truth and justice, tolerant of those who are neither true nor just.”

“Do not be ashamed of help.”

“When people injure you, ask yourself what good or harm they thought would come of it. If you understand that, you'll feel sympathy rather than outrage or anger. Your sense of good and evil may be the same as theirs, or near it, in which case you have to excuse them. Or your sense of good and evil may differ from theirs. In which case they're misguided and deserve your compassion. Is that so hard?”

“Failure to read what is happening in another's soul is not easily seen as a cause of unhappiness: but those who fail to attend the motions of their own soul are necessarily unhappy.”

[This message edited by swmnbc at 10:07 AM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

Just to jump in before Spock gets back.

House, I think that's what I've come to realize since assaulted with this infidelity. I THOUGHT my picture was my reality.

What I've come to realize is that the picture has to change. It must be in flux, so to speak, in accommodation of human imperfections. What I need to do is convince myself that I'm not settling, or compromising my ideals by reconciling.

If my flawed husband cannot be the man I need him to be now (and, by the way, the only thing I require is radical honesty) and I stay, then I'd be untrue to myself.

I know, Spock, you may say that should be where I was two years ago. Clear that he had violated my trust and be done. It's not that easy.

“It is not the actions of others which trouble us (for those actions are controlled by their governing part), but rather it is our own judgments. Therefore remove those judgments and resolve to let go of your anger, and it will already be gone. How do you let go? By realizing that such actions are not shameful to you.”

That's really the core of it.

Valentinessucks

One thing I've learned since having infidelity tear my world apart: we human beings are adept at "painting pictures" to suit our reality.

Valentinessucks, I think that we human beings are adept at many more things but let me address this one. I would say that in regard of this category human beings are adept at painting picture to escape reality or better said to bend reality as to fit the painted picture they've created

Back to my point of creating a picture of our relationships in order to cope and be happy!

Humans indeed do this to cope with their problems, not only in relationship, but in general with every problem they have.

It changes, it comes to light, when there are challenges in a relationship. That's how we cope and deal with reality.

This is true especially when the problem creates big suffering. It is aimed at ending exactly this suffering they experience. As you say they do it to better cope and deal with reality as well as with the purpose to be happy (as you mentioned above). What they misunderstand is that it is a (false) coping mechanism which will not make them happy. The problem is that in the bottom line escapism rarely works. You simply can't escape reality.

I suspect that you are like me: black and white, intense, somewhat consciously unable to "create an illusion" in order to cope and be happy.

You are right, this is what I am. Only that I think that Illusion (escapism and its other forms) will not create happiness. That which is helpful in assisting us with creating happy life is being truthful and in sync with reality.

I just have to firmly believe

Here I differ from you. For me it's never belief but knowledge. If I know something I don't need to believe anything. That's fact. If I don't know, then the question of faith and belief arises. For me knowledge comes about faith and not vice versa. Some call it wisdom. So, for me wisdom is superior to faith and belief (although both are required).

With your present perspective, are you not just painting a picture that traps you in unhappiness?

If I reformulate the question to "with your present perspective, are you not bending reality to fit your beliefs (painted picture) or are you willing to bend your beliefs (painted picture) to accommodate reality", then I must admit that you've most probably found one of the most important questions I must ask myself in this whole story. Valentinessucks, this question is so deep that right now I have no definite answers to it. I must really take time to deeply reflect on it. But, I promise that when I have an answer I will let you know. Thanks, for that.

Go into a dark room and ask yourself this: am I still with her only because of the assets? If you can truthfully answer yes, then does that mean you are selling your soul?

This question must have a follow up. It's not only the question If I'm still with her because of the assets but because everything else (especially the external factors). The other follow up question does that if I'm ready to accept the injustice does selling my soul stops by this act or does it mean I sell it to someone else.

If you answer no, then you owe it to yourself (and your wife) to try to paint a new picture.

This question I think is irrelevant. Yet, unless I answered the question of whether "with my present perspective, am I not bending reality to fit my beliefs (painted picture) or am I willing to bend my beliefs (painted picture) to accommodate reality", I think this question will remained unanswered.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:16 AM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

As the wife of a retired Marine and mother of two active ones, I know a little about the way a military mind works. There is often a bit, and sometimes a lot, of black and white thinking that goes on, particularly on the battlefield where it is a necessary defense mechanism, both emotionally and physically. However, in interpersonal relationships, and especially love relationships, there is no place for it.

I suspect that deep down you actually do still love your wife but you see it as weakness. You use all the external factors of commitment to justify to yourself why you stay and therefore you feel trapped, but it is just as likely that you feel trapped by actual love and that just behooves you a great deal. If you didn't love her deep down, I don't think you would be in this much pain.

But if you really don't love your wife and you really are miserable because of it, then do yourself and your wife a favor and divorce her. I feel sorry for her, really, being stuck with a man who not only cannot love her, but can't even be honest with her. I would hate that. When my H cheated (the Marine officer who oozes integrity BTW, yet he still cheated) I would never have been able to stay with him if he hadn't claimed to love me still.

I too, struggled considerably with my remorseful H, even though I knew I loved him. I had to learn to forgive myself for loving him and staying. It took me about 6 years (the 3 yr mark was very difficult). Once I forgave myself for that, the next thing I knew, I had forgiven him as well. It was after that we went to Retrouvaille, which has enabled us to move forward even more, as that last hurdle is him being able to forgive himself. As a man of integrity, this has been very difficult for him. Even so, we are very happy with our marriage right now, maybe even more than ever.

Reconciliation is not about putting in the time and stopping the fights about the infidelity. It's about repairing and reconnecting. You have not done that. Because you refuse to. You. It is on you. Until you open your heart, it can never happen and you are hurting your family by staying in a loveless marriage.

And BTW, the argument that you don't want to give her half your stuff. Weak argument. It's just stuff, at the cost of your happiness and hers. Let her go.

Spock - I'm sorry for your pain. Your story is wrenching, as are almost all of them on this site.

My points and questions will be brief but please note that I have read all of the posts and your replies carefully. They are also more direct than my typical approach as I'm under a time crunch, so please don't be offended.

1. How much do you acknowledge that fear is at the heart of your inability to open yourself to your wife? In some posts you seem to admit this but it others you contradict this. You say that you believe she would not betray you again but then you ask why you would put yourself out there on that limb with someone who has cut it off previously. The answer is that some people are capable of learning, growth, and change. If you don't believe this, then you should end your marriage now, right? Because by definition you are with someone who can not change and will quite possibly hurt you again. But if you do believe that people can change and you are still unwilling to open up to her, then the explanation that remains is that you have a deep, paralyzing fear that she will hurt you. And for this you have my deepest empathy as I have felt this too. But, if you believe she has changed and will very likely not hurt you again, then it is incumbent on you to utilize your clear strengths of intellect, logic, and willpower to tackle this fear. Because this fear is illogical and it is holding you back from happiness with your current W and, I'd argue, will affect any possible relationship in the future. (ETA: I've thought this through more and realized that you likely already know this. So then what is truly left after you accept that this fear is not logical. It can only be pride, or more accurately, foolish pride. "Foolish" because it is hurting you and keeping you from happiness.)

2. Do you think there is a certain immaturity in thinking of your wife as "sullied" by her ONS? I ask this because in carefully reading your posts you seem to put great emphasis on the fact that another man was inside her. First, I get this. It fucking sucks and I've been plagued by this imagery and fact, too. But I ask because after three years I would think that you would realize that what truly sullies someone is the lies and the deceit. What sullies someone is the willful, conscious act of betrayal. Another man was inside of her? What if she had been raped or had sex before marriage? Would this equally "sully" her? If not, then focus on her decisions and her intent and try to get away from the primal reaction to her being physical with another man. If you want to live up to your screen name, then this, in and of itself, can't matter that much. Now, her thoughts and decisions around this event matter a great deal and that is what you should focus on.

Finally, like Western, I deviate with many on this site in that I think the context and the extent of the betrayal matters. Your wife didn't carry on an affair for a length of time. She didn't lie to your face every damn day for weeks, months, or years. She didn't harbor feelings for her OM. None of this means that her actions are therefore "no big deal" or easily excused. But I can't see how it is not a factor in your reconciliation with her.

Sorry, one more thing. (I'm trying and failing to keep this short! ) My wife, like yours, is extremely remorseful. She has worked incredibly hard in MC, IC, group therapy, books, workbooks, introspection, and all the rest to understand her brokenness and be a better person. And I believe she is well on her way to not only being a person who wouldn't cheat again, but being a better wife, mother, partner, and lover. If you accept the premise (and I know not all people do) that we can change and improve ourselves, then why wouldn't you want the person that she becomes? You are going to get the amazing wife you described in your post PLUS someone who has looked deeply into her darkness (and remember we all have our own darkness) and tried to fix it. How many people do this? Not many. Look around at your friends' marriages. Not to compare, but to realize that there are few out there with good communication, connection, and passion. For me, at least, I think I can come out of this shit storm with a happier marriage. To an outsider it likely seems bizarre that I can say my marriage is better than most. They might think, "Are you nuts? Your wife cheated on you. How can a marriage marked by infidelity be considered strong?" The answer is that the marriage we had which led to infidelity was not strong (in spite of the fact that we thought it was). That marriage is dead. Our new marriage, while not perfect, is characterized by better communication, MUCH higher respect and appreciation for each other, a greater sense of humility, much less entitlement, more patience, and far greater passion. I'm only 8.5 months out. Perhaps I'm a deluded fool. Certainly I was pre-A. But my story matches at least a handful of others on here. What does it mean that an outsider could look at your marriage and kill for what you have NOW?

In spite of the accusatory nature of my questions, I promise you my sympathies are with you. I've been there, I've felt the intense pain you are feeling. I want you to heal, whatever that means in terms of R or D.

Strength to you.

[This message edited by chifrudo at 12:18 PM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

Hopeful and Chif, thank you so much for articulating much of my thought processes these last two years!

It's surreal, but as I have this exchange with Spock, I get an inkling of what my husband must go through when he is trying to convince me of the possibility that my ways of thinking are hurting ME. I feel as though, in our exchange, Spock, you are mirroring me and I am mirroring my husband.

Then Hopeful and Chifrudo come along and articulate, for me, something so helpful.

Round and round I go........!

MrSpock,

I've read some of your thread here. I was a submarine officer and I'm told by my wife that I'm stoic and often express little feeling. As an INTJ, I do a lot of thinking and chess moves, etc.

Back in medieval times, when you were suited up in armor, sword or spear, and shield, you might meet someone whom you didn't fully trust but wanted to work with. The two wouldn't lay down their swords, they would lay down their shield. Why was that? Because you never disarm yourself. But setting down the shield shows a willingness to trust even if it may not be earned or right.

Spock, you have held onto that shield with white knuckled fervor. It's the fact you are holding your shield that keeps you on this battlefield.

You have had a rough experience, no doubt. You are battle hardened and know how to keep your troops as safe as possible in a tight spot. But this isn't war.

My wife insisted on cheating. She told me that if she couldn't have her "friend" then we were through! Then she raged on me and her 5 children for a year as she went into the lala land of affairs. It was horrible. She was completely non remorseful for the longest time.

So how do I forgive that? How do I heal my marriage after she left our children for the day to meet him over and over at a hotel? It's a tight spot no doubt.

My wife is a dentist. She makes real good money, as do I--about equal. Let me ask you, if it weren't for money--if you didn't have to pay a cent in alimony and you got joint custody, would you pull the trigger on divorce? If you could walk away and start over with another wife and another family (too) would you do it? That's my case. I would easily get no alimony payments and equal share of the kids. I could then tell everyone that she cheated on me and would. not. stop. for months and months.

If you could keep all of what you earned and not pay alimony would you divorce? If not, then set aside the injustice of the divorce laws / system.

If the answer is no, then is it the kids? Is it your vows? As a military man, you hold honor high and you don't give up on your guys. You don't leave them behind. Is it honor? Or is it charity? Do you feel you need to appreciate and acknowledge the efforts she has made to show remorse.

Really your situation -- confession after being taken advantage of in a drunken stupor and 100% remorse -- It's best case as far as physical affairs go.

A good book for healing after intimate betrayal is "Living and Loving After Betrayal" by Steven Stosny. Also EMDR should be quite effective for that "picking up you wife drunk" thread in your mind. It disassociates the feelings of betrayal, astonishment, and disgust with your memories of that night (or morning I guess). I would do it. It helped me a lot.

Perhaps divorcing her and remarrying would be symbolic. She killed your marriage. RIP Mr and Ms Spock marriage, dead by strangulation that one morning. Are you just pretending to be married now? If so formally acknowledging what was done that night may put closure on things. Then, make a conscious decision to remarry, if you so desire. But only remarry if you will open yourself up to her like a husband should.

Spock my recommendation to you at this time is to set down your shield. If she takes advantage of you again, that's on her soul. Your soul, far more at risk in this life than your body, should be your major concern. In a long enough timeline, your chance of survival is zero. You will die, I guarantee it. So what are you afraid of? That she will kill you? That she will embarrass or humiliate you? Perhaps that, even worse, you will betray yourself and your honor, that you will let her take advantage of you and dishonor you again?

Honor your soul and honor your wife. Set down your shield and let her back into your life.

There is often a bit, and sometimes a lot, of black and white thinking that goes on, particularly on the battlefield where it is a necessary defense mechanism, both emotionally and physically. However, in interpersonal relationships, and especially love relationships, there is no place for it

Black and white is a matter of morality and nothing that you mentioned and it is always correct. This is one reason I never cheated.

I suspect that deep down you actually do still love your wife but you see it as weakness.

Maybe, but maybe the whole concept of love as it is revealed through this thread is an illusion. By the way, if I recall it was her that was so weak.

You use all the external factors of commitment to justify to yourself why you stay and therefore you feel trapped, but it is just as likely that you feel trapped by actual love and that just behooves you a great deal. If you didn't love her deep down, I don't think you would be in this much pain.

If at all the pain does not result from my love but from her betrayal.

But if you really don't love your wife and you really are miserable because of it, then do yourself and your wife a favor and divorce her. I feel sorry for her, really, being stuck with a man who not only cannot love her, but can't even be honest with her.

The lack of love was never somehow a problem of mine, neither was honesty. The man she's stuck is the man she's betrayed, not the man that betrayed her or her love by dishonesty. She can if she wants divorce. Most probably she will also get all the money you mentioned below, by the power of courts of course which will be on her side. It seems that it's not what she wants. Most probably she knows why and it is not the theory that you raised

Reconciliation is not about putting in the time and stopping the fights about the infidelity. It's about repairing and reconnecting. You have not done that. Because you refuse to. You. It is on you. Until you open your heart, it can never happen and you are hurting your family by staying in a loveless marriage.

The loss of love is not created by me and I haven’t cheated. The loss of love is created by her and it's her problem. Not mine. And by the way, me haven't broken anything, I don't have to do any work to reconcile and to repair. I refuse to do it because it's her job and not mine. She's a grown up woman so it's time to take responsibilty for what she's broken. I'm sorry but your definition of reconciliation is not mine.

And BTW, the argument that you don't want to give her half your stuff. Weak argument. It's just stuff, at the cost of your happiness and hers. Let her go

If it's just stuff, then lets reverse the roles and she should give up. As the one that cheated, it's just such stuff; it's perfectly fine at the expense of hers and my happiness. I rewarding her cheating and claiming it's for her happiness is not just. I understand that for some people that do not have to deal with it, that's not a problem at all. For me it is. However, she could divorce if she's so miserable. Then the question of the money, finances and assets would be no more of a problem. The courts will know how to take it from me. By the way, I've decided to talk to her. And yes, as a man I have not a lot to say about my money. The courts will do the job for her.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:27 PM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

"I don't have to do any work to reconcile and to repair."

I remember thinking this. i had to change this thought in order to stay married. i certainly didn't have to do his work. but i had to do my own.

i see that there is no wiggle room in your head. that is ok. but it makes it hard to have relationships. really though, you're selling yourself short.

just my thoughts.

I'm sorry, but I have to say something. As a BS, one more thing we get robbed of (by our life-partner) is the security of our future. If we decide to S/D, then everything we have worked for (possessions, money) is cut in half through no fault of our own. Our life-partners decided to (without any consultation to their partner) change everything. If we react with the consequence of S/D, it's just one more payment we have to make.

[This message edited by SadieMae at 12:21 PM, January 19th, 2016 (Tuesday)]

I've read some of your thread here. I was a submarine officer and I'm told by my wife that I'm stoic and often express little feeling. As an INTJ, I do a lot of thinking and chess moves, etc.

I'm stoic and have never misinterpreted the philosophy as not expressing emotions. I was very open and vulnerable. Yes, until the cheating occurred.

Back in medieval times, when you were suited up in armor, sword or spear, and shield, you might meet someone whom you didn't fully trust but wanted to work with. The two wouldn't lay down their swords, they would lay down their shield. Why was that? Because you never disarm yourself. But setting down the shield shows a willingness to trust even if it may not be earned or right.

This is an interesting point. The situation is however more complex. Yet, your point is a good one.

Spock, you have held onto that shield with white knuckled fervor. It's the fact you are holding your shield that keeps you on this battlefield.

Here I'm not sure and will disagree.

You have had a rough experience, no doubt. You are battle hardened and know how to keep your troops as safe as possible in a tight spot. But this isn't war.

I'm not sure.

My wife is a dentist. She makes real good money, as do I--about equal. Let me ask you, if it weren't for money--if you didn't have to pay a cent in alimony and you got joint custody, would you pull the trigger on divorce?

Most probably yes. However, there are still other things that I have to consider.

If you could walk away and start over with another wife and another family (too) would you do it?

Until now, I thought that this is what I want. After this long thread I must admit that being twenty years younger and with my current knowledge I would have never married.

If you could keep all of what you earned and not pay alimony would you divorce? If not, then set aside the injustice of the divorce laws / system.

As above said, most probably, yes. Yet, there are other things to consider.

If the answer is no, then is it the kids? Is it your vows? As a military man, you hold honor high and you don't give up on your guys. You don't leave them behind. Is it honor? Or is it charity? Do you feel you need to appreciate and acknowledge the efforts she has made to show remorse.

Yes, as well as many other expectation from me.

Spock my recommendation to you at this time is to set down your shield. If she takes advantage of you again, that's on her soul. Your soul, far more at risk in this life than your body, should be your major concern. In a long enough timeline, your chance of survival is zero. You will die, I guarantee it. So what are you afraid of? That she will kill you? That she will embarrass or humiliate you? Perhaps that, even worse, you will betray yourself and your honor, that you will let her take advantage of you and dishonor you again?

Honor your soul and honor your wife. Set down your shield and let her back into your life

As I said I am going to talk with her and tell her the truth. I said it above. I'm not sure that it will end it what you say. But yes, I'm willing today to take the humiliation, give her everything, and disgrace myself with being completely under the control of the courts including finances, kids and my life. Yes, I said that it is worth to regain my honor, honesty, truth and so on. If I had known this decades ago I would have never married.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:22 PM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

SadieMae

Thanks