SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

All.. of this SPOCK stuff helps NO ONE..

This is a very tough time. for us all.

Kirk→ OUT ..

down to see my BS♥ on deck 1.

love Plan C's post = cut and paste that to the fridge

personally I wouldn't follow Spock as an example... you want detachment try Buddah

the problem is not the emotions, IMO, it's your lack of processing through fully

you wouldn't marry, huh = so you'd rather wish your kids didn't exist? what'd they do to deserve being blipped out? think about that before blurting out the IMO sour grapes "I'm taking my ball away and not playing" (please know I was BTDT as well and in fact I told my WH to his face how much I regretted wasting my life thinking I was married to such a great guy before I came to a point of a bit more thankfulness to allowing me to open my eyes to reality.) These kinds of injuries really give us a tremendous opportunity to grow inwardly to truly understanding truth

I read a great quote once that life doesn't have to be perfect to be happy and maybe after you watch some movies like "murderball" or "soul surfer" and listen to a speaker like Nick Vujicic (what did he do to deserve just a chicken leg?) you recognize the reason you were asked to drop the shield

peace as you process, brother

I think you may really benefit from some of Brene Browns work. Her theory is you cannot selectively cut off emotions. If you cut off vulnerability and sadness, you also cut out joy and connection. She has multiple TED talks. She does say she slants towards women, but brought up a man chiding her because a mans struggle to be vulnerable is even harder.

I bring this up because you seem to be wanting love and connection but are dead fast set on never being vulnerable again. Without vulnerability, love and connection cannot exist.

This goes for your relationship now, as well as any you have in the future including your kids.

I will say by staying with your wife with no love, by having sex with her with no connection, you do her no favors. Cut her loose if you can't get over it.

Thank you for the thread. A good one for those who are struggling.

Divorcing your wife is fine. Divorce and marriage are one of the freedoms of life. In some societies this right does not exist. Why have rights that one cannot exercise?

Speaking with your wife is a good idea. What do you think her reaction will be?

I suspect that your wife has some inner awareness of your lack of love for her. She has lived in the hope that you will love her again. It will a relief for her to know that it is over.

You can find a new woman.

[This message edited by LongWalk at 2:19 PM, January 20th (Wednesday)]

Only, it's the first time in my life that I will no longer be in control of anything of it – not my finances, not my kids, not my life, even not myself - nothing

Coming from a reformed control freak, the loss of control over circumstances can be one of the most terrifying things we go through. However, I have learned long ago that control is just an illusion. We don't control anything, except our own reactions, and the harder we grasp onto that facade of control, the quicker it slips through our fingers.

You know....there is another option here. You can take this situation of extreme pain and fear and grow from it. You keep talking about how it is your wife's job to do ALL the healing because she caused the problem, but here's the thing. If an earthquake hits, do you wait for the earthquake to fix your home and emotions? Or do you work to rebuild things yourself and heal from the trauma?

You are putting ALL the work on her and unfortunately that doesn't help anyone. Just because you didn't cheat does not make you the perfect partner (I don't mean that in a harsh way...it is NOT your fault that she cheated and I am not implying that at all....I am a BS....I get the pain of betrayal...but I have to look at my own issues and weaknesses also if I am to heal from this and grow). What I am saying is that no one is perfect. We all have room to grow. Try to reframe this experience. I know you talked about the reality of what really is and what happened, but we make our own realities and we choose our own paths. We do have control over how we react to extreme trauma. We can mourn what was and spend the rest of our life wishing the trauma had never happened, or we can accept what is and look for ways to get through the trauma not just as a survivor, but as someone who is stronger and emotionally healthier than ever. We can learn from the trauma, we can find real wisdom in working through the pain instead of trying to escape it. If we allow it, trauma can open up entire new worlds to us if we are only open to the idea.

The life you knew is gone. You have to accept that if you are ever going to know peace. Now, it is YOUR choice what you want for your future. You have been given a chance to rebuild and choose a new path. Which path will you choose? Again, both paths have pain, but one path has the chance of taking that pain and making something even more beautiful out of it. Sometimes there IS beauty in pain. It depends on what you do with it and if you will allow your mind to grasp what possibly could be.

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 9:30 AM, January 20th (Wednesday)]

Your description of your wife, that night sounds a lot like someone who was slipped something. Are you really sure he didn't put something in her drink.

This happened to a friend's daughter. She was with a group of old friends. She thought the booze had just hit her too hard and went to lay down. A little while later someone noticed that this guy was missing too. They went looking for him and found him on her. She was more than drunk her friends knew her well enough to know. The guys searched him, found pills on him and beat the crap out of him. If no one had noticed that he had slipped away. If they had not seen her, at that moment obviously drugged, no one would have believed her. She may not have even put it together because afterward, she remembered nothing. They had to tell her what happened.

It happened to my husband too. He and his dad went to a casino. My husband won some money. They decided to play a few more minutes then call it a night. My FIL found my husband 30 minutes later, disoriented with all chips gone. My husband also had no memory of what happened to him. They found out that it is actually a common crime at casinos. If people don't know you, they will just think you are drunk. It also kinda proves your point that it is not just women at risk. My husband is 6'2", 200 lb soldier. He was weak as a lamb when FIL found him.

Only you know if you wife is the, "let's get wasted and hook up" kind of girl. Nothing you've written makes her sounds like it.

If, for you,it is the fact that someone else touched her, not her intention or culpability, then she can't fix it.

If it is a true dealbreaker for you, there is nothing she can do to change that. If she has done all she can and you can't get past it, set her free.

How often has your wife drank so much she couldn't remember? Blackout drunk is more of a chronic drinker thing.

[This message edited by Changedforworse at 3:42 PM, January 20th (Wednesday)]

Mr. Spock - I did read pretty much the entire thread, especially the things you said.

Thank you for your service to this country - only those who have served can really know ...

In like fashion, only those of us who have been betrayed can really understand how YOU feel, so thank you again for trusting people here with your feelings. We understand "totally shattered."

Every case of infidelity is different, but all of them offer, to those who are open to it, opportunities for personal growth. We know (I've been posting here for nearly 14 years) what your wife needs to do, her 'stretch.' The question is, what is YOUR stretch?

You see, the situation that you find yourself in is not calling for your wife to do more and it's not calling for you to discard your relationship and start over. The calling is nothing less than this: For you to change the way in which you view the world. Why? Because the way in which you view the world combined with the events that have occurred in your marriage, are making you very unhappy. A Black Swan event if you will.

You have high standards for yourself and expect those around you to follow your lead. After all, how could they not do so? You have achieved much by any reasonable standard and know the path to this sort of achievement. Your integrity, determination and logic are central to who you are as a person. Type A, driven, classic, stoic, hyperfocused, ENTJ. Right?

All of these things work against you in intimate relationships. Why? Because intimacy is messy, imperfect, emotional, inconsistent and worse "illogical." It isn't "logical" for you to stay with your wife any more than it was "logical" for me to stay with mine. A simple weighing of choices, as you have been doing, will tell you that. But you're not going to make this a logical decision because your intelligence is telling you that there is more to the story, right? Isn't that why you came here?

Well, you're right, there IS more. There is a 'stretch' for you as well. It is nothing less than epic - for you to See the World Differently. Guessing from your responses to others, you may disagree with me, but I know that I'm right. How? Because I'm married to someone a lot like you who has struggled with a massive shift in personal paradigm of the world over these past 14 years. It has been my privilege and honor to have been a witness, and not less than an active participant, in such a transformation and I am so proud of her.

Do not for a minute think that I'm telling you to give up integrity, honor and self-respect. I would never do that. You can find your way to a different view of the world without compromising those important virtues. It will not help you to project them onto others, however. I see you like the word 'control' well one of the things that you learn along the way, as someone mentioned, is that control is truly an illusion. Now I would say something like "the only thing you can truly control is yourself" but frankly I think you have this one down! Maybe a little less control all around?

What you decide on as your 'stretch' is up to you, but here's a suggested starting point: Faith, Hope and Love. All totally illogical.

Faith in your wife, Hope for the future and Love for each other. Why take that leap? Because it is the road to happiness my friend, not logic. And happiness is important.

At least consider what Epictetus said "If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." It is not your circumstances that are causing your unhappiness, it is what you are making of them in your own mind. Now, I wouldn't say that to someone who has 'just found out' but you are stuck, three years down the road.

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 10:42 AM, January 20th (Wednesday)]

I came back to this thread again after my last post because there was a bit missing. TR got it for me (thanks TR!)

You have so many people on here who are taking time out of their lives to try to help you. We do this because we were helped through one of our darkest periods and many of us made it through not only in one piece, but even better than before. We want to help you through this also and find your peace and happiness again. It is a payback for many of us.

Type A, driven, classic, stoic, hyperfocused, ENTJ.

This is me to a T. Or, the old me. Like I said, I am reformed (a bit, you can never take all the type A ENTJ out of someone). I still achieve (I just graduated college with a 4.0 and was class speaker at our graduation.)

All of these things work against you in intimate relationships. Why? Because intimacy is messy, imperfect, emotional, inconsistent and worse "illogical."

You can't control what happens in a relationship. Therefore...sometimes...

For You to See the World Differently.

We have to open ourselves to other views. We have to realize when our own view just isn't working for us. It sounds like you are at this junction. Your view isn't working for you right now. So maybe it is time to consider trying to think about this a bit differently.

Truly hoping you can find your peace in this.

ETA: Oh, and also...this is something I truly don't understand and you may have explained it elsewhere so I am sorry if I am making you repeat this....where is the dishonor in loving someone and finding the courage to give them a second chance, when they are doing the self-work to become worthy of that second chance?

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 11:13 AM, January 20th (Wednesday)]

I am a BS struggling to recover. But in this post I write with a different perspective.

I was attacked/raped in my 20s. I get this is different from your wife’s situation. Please no more arguments about whether an intoxicated woman can consent. But the aftermath of that experience was disturbingly similar to what you describe.

Like your wife, I had a mental health breakdown. Like you - my partner heroically stayed my side and supported me during the brutal aftermath of a traumatic event.

Like you, he experienced his own trauma. Didn’t deal with, share it or find help. Stuffed it down. He ACTED like the loyal partner. But inside he seethed.

Like your wife, I desperately wanted the partnership to continue. But because he was not honest about his feelings, and I wanted the partnership so much, I ignored the signs of his trauma, misery and bad feelings towards me.

He had every right to his feelings. He had ever right to reject or leave me. But to continue a sexual partnership with me (as you have done with your wife) while he had left me in his heart without full disclosure - not okay. It felt like an intimate betrayal. In the long run, it was as traumatic as the rape.

By the way, he became verbally mean. And I came to believe I deserved it. As someone concerned with honor, I hope you would avoid that path.

I urge you to a) seek help for your trauma. b) be honest with your wife. c) leave her if you think that is what you need, but honor the decades of devotion she has shown you – before and after her fateful night of debauchery – by ending the partnership with compassion.

Thank you rbf1234 for sharing your perspective. I'm so very sorry that you had that experience.

I intend to teach my children that no one can consent to any kind of sex while blackout drunk. I also intend to teach them that if they have sex while blackout drunk, they made a dangerous choice, but they are not "sullied."

Reading and participating in this thread has reinforced for me how important facing and working through trauma is. Whether you choose to reconcile or leave depends upon your circumstances and your wishes and those of your partner. But the honorable and right thing is always to process your feelings as well as you can, and to choose a path of honesty, openness, and compassion as you move forward, with or without your spouse.

Thank you swmnbc for your kind response. I'm rather freaked out by having shared so much. It was probably a bad idea.

A lot of really, really insightful posts in this thread, starting from the original poster.

rbf1234, thanks for sharing. I won't forget the lesson.

Dr. Spock, pulling for you...

I sincerely wish my WW was making a fraction of the efforts you describe. A few simple questions:

1) Do you have it within you to forgive your WW?

2) What does your WW need to do to fully express remorse?

3) Is it possible to rebuild trust with your WW?

4) Can you let go of the delusion of who you thought your WW was?

The last question is the most difficult one. Infidelity is an expression of character absent a boundary. It's always been there lurking in the shadows, but wasn't expressed until the betrayal. You chose to marry someone that ultimately betrayed you. Do the work to forgive yourself and you will find the grace and mercy to forgive your WW. Let go of the delusion of who you thought she was and accept her as she is today. This is the work of the betrayed partner in reconciliation.

-JungAdmirer

"One should not profit from anything one betrays"

[This message edited by JungAdmirer at 1:28 PM, January 20th (Wednesday)]

One thing I could not come to terms with is the bond that he broke with cheating. He broke the innocence of our bond and I felt as if he is filthy...literally...ever since. I want to spray the ozone when they drive away every werk after bringing back my little son.

And I couldn't be with him physically while feeling that, though I did bc I was challenged. Long story.

Until I had distance from him and "it" I could not put these feelingsvinto words. There is a type of innocence about marriage of two and that trust.

idk if the theory helps at all but if maybe you can find the roots of your feelings its a start to clear your head.

Hi Everyone, I have a lot of things to do so wasn't able to answer for a while. I will later answer everyone and will update you about the talk I plane with my wife where I am going to tell her the truth. So, here is the first reference to notperfect5. I will later also answer the other posts and questions

Also EMDR should be quite effective for that "picking up you wife drunk" thread in your mind. It disassociates the feelings of betrayal, astonishment, and disgust with your memories of that night (or morning I guess). I would do it. It helped me a lot.

I think you understand it. It’s the imagery of how I found and seen her there; it's even embarrassing to anonymously describe it; the picking up of her while drunken; the fear of being seen and the embarrassment in it. It's the feelings of betrayal, astonishment, disbelief, shock and disgust – it's how how bizarre and surreal the situation was. And it won't leave; it just won't leave.

Perhaps divorcing her and remarrying would be symbolic. She killed your marriage. RIP Mr and Ms Spock marriage, dead by strangulation that one morning. Are you just pretending to be married now? If so formally acknowledging what was done that night may put closure on things. Then, make a conscious decision to remarry, if you so desire. But only remarry if you will open yourself up to her like a husband should.

That's an interesting idea, worth to explore.

I have chosen to try to reconcile with my wife who had an in my face affair. I don't know if I will be able to do it. My wife blamed me for the affair she laughed as I begged her to stop seeing him. I may have a heart attack due to the adrenaline dumping in my system since Aug 13. It's over now and she's getting what she did was horrible. I'll try.

I'm sorry for what you've gone and dealt with and on the other side I'm grateful that you brought this up. To be true even me, I would not able to stay in your situation. It’s not criticism. It's how I am. However, when I reflected on it a thought occurred to me and I think I realized that maybe intuitively or unconsciously I didn't leave because I could rationalize or understand my wife's incident as an exception

When you said:

Really your situation -- confession after being taken advantage of in a drunken stupor and 100% remorse -- It's best case as far as physical affairs go.

I think it was that. And I think if this exception can be valid for the future as well.

But when you say "I don't have to do any work to reconcile and to repair" I agree only in part. Healing you is your work to do, not hers. She can give you the tools to trust, to get answers, to feel loved and appreciated, but only you can heal yourself. That work is exclusively yours to do. She can drive you to the hospital, your IC and MC can stitch you back together, but only your body can close the would and make a scar.

Your going to have to do the work whether you reconcile or divorce, so why not do it now?

I agree with you. Healing is indeed my work to do. The sooner, the better. Yet, not in order to reconcile but solely for my own healing and happiness! I've done a lot, yet I have still to do much more than this in the future.

Only when I work on me to view myself as a strong, unbroken, resilient man will the pain from her actions subside. She did this to herself. She did this to herself. I am not diminished by her actions and I never will be. She's got to work on fixing herself and I've got to work on fixing me. Only when we are both strong and healed can we make this marriage work again.

The pain will never go. I don’t believe in it. I know it from my own experience – not infidelity related. I had a lot of it. Every human being has to work on himself, but there is nothing to work on myself in regard of her affair. The fixing and the healing it are for me! Not anyone else.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 6:33 PM, January 20th (Wednesday)]

JungAdmirer

Thanks I liked your post and questions. Here are my answers

Do you have it within you to forgive your WW?

I don't believe forgiveness is necessary. What we need is to let go. So, I don't think I'll forgive but under certain circumstances will be able to let go

What does your WW need to do to fully express remorse?

I think she is remorseful

Is it possible to rebuild trust with your WW?

The trust is rebuilt

Can you let go of the delusion of who you thought your WW was?

This is an important question. The answer is yes. Yet, my conclusion is different than yours below. I think at certain level, it's irrelevant. On another level, it's not only what she's now but a lot more things that surround it. In the bottom line the question is about what is rebuilt. It is specifically about love. And the question I have as in regard to that love, I explained in the previous posts. Reading some of the replies here, I started to doubt that there's though a true love in romantic relationships at all. I will adress this later too.

I will answer the other posts and questions later

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:01 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

Walloped and NaiveAgain

MrSpock - I disagree on one piece of the above. You ARE in control of yourself. Being honest and a man of integrity and honor is not dependent upon the outcome. It doesn't change depending on whether we are in control of the consequences of our actions. We do what's right. Full stop. Our actions are either ones of integrity, dignity, and honor, or they are not. The outcome is separate. So you are in control of yourself. And it is on you how you act from here on out. And no matter what happens, nothing can take away who you are and the kind of person you are. By acting with integrity, it defines you and you keep that. No matter what. -Walloped

However, I have learned long ago that control is just an illusion. We don't control anything, except our own reactions, and the harder we grasp onto that facade of control, the quicker it slips through our fingers. -NaiveAgain

NaiveAgain

Those are beautiful words. They really are. How I know it. Well, I didn't need infidelity for this. The best laboratory for this is the battlefield. You know what is the best army and best soldiers beside training and so on. It's the one that knows to improvise not necessarily to control things. A soldier that when thinga went wrong still has ability to offer a solution. The best military tacticians will tell that almost all the time (lack of control) something will not really work up to your plans. The best army therefore is not the one that doesn't do any mistakes. Under pressure and lack of ultimate control they will always happen, but the one that is able to offer the best solution. It's the balancing of what's controllable and what is not. That's my stance on things.

As to what you say so once there's lack of control a system that is based on that is judged by two factors. It's the test of equality and the one of simplicity. It means that to cope with lack of control and uncertainty you must simplify the things you do not complicate them. And the test of equality says that this must be for all and not only one group of people. In both tests this system fails. The only thing I control here is accepting this mistreatment. In this system I have to give her everything - because she cheated of course. In this system I lose my kids - because she cheated of course. In this system I'm treated like a class C citizen - because she cheated of course. Well, not very much of control, but as we will see immediately this is not always so.

If I would have cheated, left her and paid no money, no one would have come to my wife and tell her to let go, that's everything an illusion but to unleash the whole system against me which in this case can control this very well. So, the system can control something - sometimes at least. It is only not controlled for me (men). Proving that this system is neither equal nor simplifies things. Yes, I may have dignity, integrity and honor in my actions and responses yet this system strips you from any basic human respect and dignity as to your very basic life and existence. There is besides my actions no dignity and no glory in that existence and life. There is only desperation, despair, pain and agony. There is only misery, hopelessness, futility and no meaning in such existence. There is nothing beautiful about that specific type of painful existence, there is only misery I can find here.

You know....there is another option here. You can take this situation of extreme pain and fear and grow from it. You keep talking about how it is your wife's job to do ALL the healing because she caused the problem, but here's the thing. things yourself and heal from the trauma?

So, if this is the case I come to the realization that all I was living was a lie. This is also an illusion not only the lack of control. I regret what I did; regret contributing to a society that treats me this way. Regret involving and committing myself to a woman. I cry about all my friends that I buried and who gave their life for nothing. And therefore the new meaning would probably be to distance myself from this all. Stop contributing to society. Never involving and committing myself to a woman. I have to work less and only for me! I can work more and give money if I want for charity. Help the poor in Africa. Yet, there is no reason to involve myself with a woman so that I can be robbed from everything I have worked for - because she cheated of course. This is how I can control things. I have control only over myself. I will still not be able to control everything but I will simplify my life. Control what I can let go of everything else. With the exception that now I have dignity, integrity and honor not only in my actions but in my overall existence as well.This is the little bit different view of the world I begin to realize. By the way, I didn't say it's my wife's job to heal me. She can only hurt me. Healing that's on me. Yet, rebuilding and repairing the broken marriage is only on her. I haven't broken it and it is not my responsibility

You are putting ALL the work on her and unfortunately that doesn't help anyone. Just because you didn't cheat does not make you the perfect partner (I don't mean that in a harsh way...it is NOT your fault that she cheated and I am not implying that at all....I am a BS....I get the pain of betrayal...but I have to look at my own issues and weaknesses also if I am to heal from this and grow). What I am saying is that no one is perfect.

So, if you mention this "imperfection" of me in one breath with her cheating and in regard to the work in reconciliation than you exactly do what you claim you're not. My "imperfection is not hers concern. I always was and always will be doing this work. Yet, her cheating and not me, this kind of work on myself will never be done in the context of reconciliation. Never!

[This message edited by MrSpock at 5:03 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

I've read through this thread and have been struggling to come up with a clear way of articulating what is coming into my head, so I will bumble through this.

One of the concepts of healing from the trauma we've been through after discovering betrayal is that of "OWNING YOUR SHIT." This applies to both the wayward and the betrayed.

You've come here in anguish about your internal state after your wife has tried very hard to repair the damage she has done to you and to the marriage. She, so far as I've read, has "owned her shit" and tried to make amends. I'm referring to outward, visible actions. Perhaps she has also done the internal work to figure out where she went wrong and has tried to make corrections to her internal self too. To know how she lost control of her senses, how she came to fall down the rabbit hole, and as also worked to try to heal her shame, embarrassment, her moral compass, in order to be safer, trustworthy, honorable in fact, going forward in her life. I'm speculating because she isn't here to tell us first hand, but it is possible she is doing the hard work to heal internally.

On the other hand, you have fallen into the trap of blaming your wife for your pain. For your numbness. You argue very rationally how this is all her fault.

You are doing the work you think you need to do to repair your marriage. You are going forth doing the externally visible actions of moving on. You show her love, work to maintain a nice home environment, give her orgasms, etc.

But you are not owning your pain. You have fallen short in the internal work department. You are not claiming your pain, and holding it and saying this pain is mine, it has powerfully taken over my happiness, and I have given up all hope of conquering it while I stay with my wife. It is her fault, she hurt me, this pain I endure is eternal and it's all because of her. And because it is her fault I can't get away from the pain unless I get away from her.

Your emotional healing is your responsibility and yours only. Leaving your wife will not fix the pain problem. It will not cure your numbness. It will not make the mind movies go away, It will not change your internal state by changing your external situation. You will simply substitute other situations and environments and people, and still have the same you inside, the same hurting you.

Your inability to open up and reveal to your wife your constant mind-movies, the burning humiliation of her dirtying herself, the mechanical duty of sex that makes you want to stop as soon as you possibly can, is YOUR SHIT TO OWN. Your inability. Your paralysis. Your silence.

You have been unable to be genuine and authentic and vulnerable and HONEST about your internal state. THAT is what is hurting you. It is the lie you are acting out. You are acting as if you are OK, and the cognitive dissonance is killing you because you know you are not OK. She may have given you the pain, but you now hold it, and you are keeping it a deep dark secret. It is in your hands, cloaked. She no longer has any control over it, or even awareness of it because you are hiding it. And now you are bludgeoning yourself with it -- without recognizing that your own hands are holding the club and not hers.

I suggest that you do not need to divorce to find happiness and love again. You need to get some help to come to terms with your emotions that are keeping you trapped in unhappiness. You need to learn how to uncloak and show the club, and talk about the bruises, and the mind movies and the humiliation and sadness, and fear of losing what you've worked so hard for.

Find a psychotherapist. Enroll in treatment. Go for a year. Just you. Not a marriage counsellor, the problem isn't your marriage.

Actively work to heal your pain. Choose to try to rekindle your love. Choose to try to vanquish the mind movies. Spill your guts, take the homework. Draw on an artist's pad, start a journal, start using words that contain emotional content to describe what is happening inside you. Find where you hurt and are scared and are angry and ashamed, and get those FEELINGS out in the open where you can examine them, and sit with them, and realize they are part of you and you can be OKAY with them, and temper them, and morph them, and bring into your head and heart the feelings you WANT, like love and grace, like peace and contentment, like ease, like a giggle and a tickle and a burp and a fart, you can let go and be yourself, and you can look at your wife and her beautiful hair and the twinkle in her eye and her love for you and remember why you married her, you can recall the early parts of your life with her and truly forget for a moment the recent parts, and enjoy her and yourself -- without the torture of the club holding those mind movies between you.

If you want to fall back in love with your wife, there is a pathway to do that. It's not easy but you seem like a man who can figure out how to do something hard, and do it well.

Hi HouseOfPlane

It took me a long time but I owe. I'm sorry for the delay! Here it is

Is my pain, a pride issue? Is my hurt, a pride thing? IS MY SUFFERING A PRIDE TOO? Is the betrayal, the humiliation and injustice, just a matter of pride?

Isn't it, though? Or something related to it? Not to downplay it all, but you (and I) suffered no direct physical injury, no broken bones. We did suffer an attack on this thing we've constructed called our self, which blew up this narrative we've constructed called our life story. But what else is there other than the self? We will go to the ends of the Earth to defend it. Yet it is mostly illusion.

HouseOfPlane, when I look at that statement than I must say that I actually agree with everything. Yet, when I said that I completely disagree with you not because that is everything false, but because it portrays only a very partial picture of reality, I meant exactly that statement! So, yes, the self is an illusion; it's completely accepted today by the scientific society. It’s not more some eastern esoteric philosophy. So, will we go to the end of the world to defend that delusion? You bet we will. So, does pride create suffering? Well, as standing opposed to pain, it creates only one specific type of suffering, namely the mental one. Yet, as opposed to this kind of suffering, pain is simply inevitable. It's not a question of pride, but it's a feature of our life. It's the trauma of daily life and the pain of life itself. It's not the story but the very life we live. The mental suffering you can get rid of; you create it. The pain you can't do nothing about it. It's existential; it's inevitable; you grow into it!

So, as opposed to what you say, pain is not only physical and in fact most people and for sure at greater extent are suffering more from mental than physical pain and it is more the mental emotional pain that is more difficult. Emotions and feelings are life and it's painful. There is this simile that says that pain is inevitable and suffering is optional (I can't remember who said it). So, while affair through pride creates an optional suffering on the personal level by attacking the life story, its widespread nature embodies an attack not only on the story but through pain at the very raw emotional core of life itself. It's not only our delusion of ego that gets attacked on its life stories but it's also pain that's inflicted on our very human nature as living beings. This pain has nothing to do with pride and it's inevitable.

When we deal with the suffering on the personal level than it is correct that the pride is that which causes it! Yet, when it comes to decision it's not the ego and pride but actually the pain that is taken into consideration. In this case it's not the pride that stands versus life. It is in fact pride that stands versus suffering. And it is life that ain't standing versus anything of it but is a single choice with many sub options that we take. We can reconcile, divorce and do whatever we want, when it comes to personal suffering then pride and ego are obstacle to happiness; when it comes to choices then it’s the life with its pain and the choices you take. If you, HouseOfPlane, would come to me and say, look, MrSpock, no matter what you do if you put an end to the suffering despite the pain than I would agree with you. I'm also doing this; it's just takes time. When it comes to the decision the other poster mentioned above, then pride may play a role for some, but it is by far not the only consideration; pain is the most important one. And pain is real. It's not an illusion. Suffering is. In the bottom line, I don't think it is pride that contributes to my decision making in this case

It’s between choosing what's good for me and what is just; it's between the high promises of the ideal and the futility of real life

The ideal is what you live, the real life is what we mostly get subjected to….

The ideal is a story you tell in your head, it's not what you live. Yet what you live, your real life of course, it's what you get and are presented with.

completely out of our control. I mean, how much of your circumstances do you really control? You could have been born and experienced life at any point over the last 10,000 years, and been born and eaten by a Sabre-Toothed Tiger at the tender age of 11.

Read my two last posts to get an answer on this one

Who am I and why am I here?

This is exactly what I'm doing and I've shortly touched this in the two last answers too. Those are questions now I also ask myself as in regard to my marraiage as well.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 5:58 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

It's what you do AFTER failure that really shows what you are made of.

Yes I agree with this ^

Crazyblindsided,

Is someone not measured by not getting into the places that he merely can escape or worse than this sometimes never? Someone who proactively works on himself so he doesn't get there.

A wise person knows to avoid the place that the smart roughly escapes. I think there is a higher standard than that which is expressed above (although it is very high too).

[This message edited by MrSpock at 6:31 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]