SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Mr Spock,

You have written a very good thread. Let's call it a seminar exploring infidelity like a three dimensional Lego construction. You want to build to reach a conclusion but you must have the right piece. Once you reach a certain point you get stuck. The structure becomes fragile. You were repelled and frustrated.

You needed to go through this process. That was your way of coping.

By the way did you wife say that she knew or had some inkling of what you were struggling with?

Did she reach into her pile of Legos and pull out the pieces that your were missing? If so, she is a good WW in reconciliation for real.

[This message edited by LongWalk at 5:55 PM, January 26th (Tuesday)]

Read the thread. Hope it is not too late. First two things that do not exist: Fog Affair (this is merely the WS falling out of love with the BS and in love with the AP). Not applicable in your case. Next, Reconciliation and Forgiveness. Humans don't forgive. Dolphins and Elephants and Dogs and Horses and Bonomo Chimps and some Birds. Cats don't either. SI is loaded to the gills with BS's that would try and reconcile with the Whore Of Babylon.They are ballet stars doing the pick me dance. You are lucky again, not pertinent to you as a drunken ONS does not need to be kicked to the curb. In the above cases Women will watch very closely as to the BH's actions in trying to save the marriage. Anything that does not exact a terrible price from them will bring a silent sigh of relief. They will typical read all the books and treat you to the life of Riley for a couple of years then lose weight, start a new job, dress sexier and look for more cake or a possible trade up from you. The sick ones will affair down to get their fix of tawdry sex and perform sex acts with the new AP that you never experienced with them and may not even know existed. They fear betraying an Alpha because they KNOW it is a deal breaker and know the curb is coming. You have a tough problem. An Alpha with a WW in a real DRUNKEN ONS! A Beta would rug sweep it in 2 weeks and blame themselves for not being there to save the WW. Marriages even in Alpha betrayals stick ONLY for kids and money. The love is gone, the mind movies suck. Keep her as this type of Betrayal is the least noxious, without harmful intent to you and she seems genuine. But extract a price to feel justice and balance the marriage while still allowing her to stay with you. Once balanced you CAN fall back in love and with justice the mind movies will dull as you focus on the fact she had no intent. This is the only affair that can truly be called a MISTAKE as there never was intent on her part. Do this : tell her she has a choice, outright divorce with no contact other than co-parenting......or a divorce, never to be re-married again (you can always ask her years down the road if things go well) but you two will agree to be living together monogamously with the kids as a family.......catch.....she MUST GIVE YOU VERY FAVORABLE DIVORCE TERMS FINANCIALLY with 50/50 custody just in case you two split down the road. This is a big test for her and will measure her devotion to you and her trust in you. You will find healing and getting past this much easier in this situation....she handed you lemons so make lemonade. I "brokered" these type deals for 40 years as a Physician that had to do this type work due to my practice location. You get much the best of it as her ONS was not malicious.....but she gets to demonstrate her trust in you and gets to keep an eventually much happier Spock who will be a real loving husband again someday. Good luck Solider from a Viet Vet Stretch

Hi all

I promised to update you. So, next I'll tell you what's new. First, I want to really thank you all, guys. Stretch, especially you and I will immediately elaborate on the matter in details. Valentinessucks and NaiveAgain, I want to thank you for the compliments. Actually, after having read stretch's post, I do believe now, more than ever, sense it happened, that I, that we, could do it. I also must say that all of you described so well various aspects of my personality but you stretch have hit the nail on the main aspect of it.

Stretch, not only your post does not come too late, but it was probably the one that eventually would or could save my marriage. Man, it's like you reading me through the computer screen. There are so many answers to all of my questions that I find it even very hard to put the gratitude I feel in word. It's not only that you gave me answers, showed me the direction, but you also so eloquently could point the finger and solve the problem of why I'm feeling so "stuck".

I described the conversation with my wife (after her answering my questions) as one of those light bulb moments. I had the same feeling with your post. However, there was even something more to it. It is like a thirsty man going through the desert. He desperately needs some water – to survive! And then he gets it. If we apply the same analogy to the marriage, it is why I said your post most probably have saved my marriage.

Anything that does not exact a terrible price from them will bring a silent sigh of relief. They will typical read all the books and treat you to the life of Riley for a couple of years then lose weight, start a new job, dress sexier and look for more cake or a possible trade up from you.

But extract a price to feel justice and balance the marriage while still allowing her to stay with you -stretch

As you said, what I need from her are at least three more things besides the answers she gave me. A) A sense of justice (ultimately there would never be one! B) Retribution (extracting a high price for her choices)! C) Devotion (through really hard times and not only when everything's roses).

Once balanced you CAN fall back in love and with justice the mind movies will dull as you focus on the fact she had no intent - stretch

All of the three aspects are intrinsically intertwined and when applied together as one I do feel like you that through the balance, justice and devotion the result you mention here is possible.

Do this: tell her she has a choice, outright divorce with no contact other than co-parenting......or a divorce, never to be re-married again (you can always ask her years down the road if things go well) but you two will agree to be living together monogamously with the kids as a family.......catch.....she MUST GIVE YOU VERY FAVORABLE DIVORCE TERMS FINANCIALLY with 50/50 custody just in case you two split down the road. This is a big test for her and will measure her devotion to you and her trust in you - stretch

Based on the principles you outlined here and my needs from her as I described above I gave her a third option (together with your two ones where the second one of yours slightly differs from mine). Superficially, it looks as breaking or making "discounts" for her behavior, but in fact it makes her take a high toll on her actions. So, the third option was we stay together and try to reconcile more properly. Yet, I told her that in order to reconcile, I'll need to accommodate a very dramatic change in my life style. Selling, downsizing, laying off or reducing the business activity, all is what I'm considering right now and everything is possible! Partly, it was to test her reaction but as I never shoot if I don't want or throw empty threats if I can't back them up, it was partly also true. I'm not afraid of this. I can always come back if I want. There is nothing that can stop me in this if I decide this is what I want (once I healed)

Anyway, even if I sell the business, we will never be poor or have any problems to put food on the table. However, I don't have to sell it. There are other options and help for me if I decide I want to keep the business. The rationale behind it was a) to see her devotion for me in hard times when she does not get everything I offer her (or is she really staying with me only because of the financial and material comfort?! B) Retribution (as to the high price you mentioned and there is more to it!) C) A sense of justice (that is restored through retribution and devotion in hard times). Her reaction was unequivocal. She's chosen the third option and is even willing to do more if necessary (there is once again more to it). We also agreed to stop the sex until I heal and we properly reconcile. It's not healthy for anyone what we had. To take a sabbatical as someone suggested here. So, it's just another aspect of this third option.

As to the update, I went to my psychologist and it is obvious that I have C-PTSD and EBO. He wants to do and to write an assessment and evaluation so I have some official diagnosis of it. However, I started to look for various treatments for it. I do know more or less what the direction I want to take, but if someone has good experiences with different treatments, I'm open to explore those possibilities. What plagues me the most are the mind movies, obsessive thoughts and especially what I understood to be "emotional flashbacks". One thing I know, this everything will never break me, I may not get completely rid of it but I'm not going to let this shit define me or my life. Not this shit is going to lead me, but it is going to be me that am going to do this with this shit. I know it's a different war here, but I'm going to win it anyway. I am stronger than the sum of all of my shit! Never have I nor would I ever let this kind of shit define my life!

By the way did you wife say that she knew or had some inkling of what you were struggling with? – Long Walk

No! But I do not accuse her. It's not her fault, it's mine! When I need, I know to take responsibility. She told me that she didn't know that I had those feelings. But she's happy and grateful that I've told her as she now can try and work it out with me if I only give her the chance.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:12 AM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

LongWalk

Did she reach into her pile of Legos and pull out the pieces that your were missing? If so, she is a good WW in reconciliation for real. – LongWalk

Definitely, yes! Some of them very crucial for me! It was not her fault. There were things I refused and was reluctant to see with various excuses and justifications. Maybe, an unhealthy defense mechanism!? Possibly, yes! However, I think it was part of being or feeling stuck as Stretch so eloquently elaborated in his response. Until he came and enlightened my mind on this matter! Now, that I know all the extent of her internal work, it is mind-boggling!

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:44 PM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

And finally this one:

Humans don't forgive.

Stretch, one thing I know for myself that personally I don’t think forgiveness is necessary. WE NEEED TO LET GO NOT TO FORGIVE! If someone wants to forgive that's o.k. That's fine. Some people may need it and I'm fine with it. Personally, I don't have the need to forgive, only to let go. If, I've done this, then I'm more than able to fall again in love with her altogether with the retribution, the sense of justice that must be restored and the devotion in hard time that must be shown.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 10:58 AM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

EMDR is very successful in treating PTSD. EFT (emotional freedom technique) has also had success. From what I've read, I'd look for a good EMDR practitioner first.

T/J - stretch,

Your post is filled with so many over-generalizations that my mind has imploded. I'll start and end with 2 points.

1) What price makes the pain of being betrayed OK? IMO, nothing can do that.

2) What is forgiveness to you? To me, it's no longer wishing that harm come to the offender. By that definition, human beings most definitely do forgive. Of course, other definitions could lead to a different conclusion, and I'm curious about yours.

"Your post is filled with so many over-generalizations that my mind has imploded."

im glad someone said this because i sure thought that. and was kind of insulted too. it was a very black and white explanation.

EMDR is very successful in treating PTSD. EFT (emotional freedom technique) has also had success. From what I've read, I'd look for a good EMDR practitioner first.

To what branch of psychology does it belong or is it some "new age" stuff?

T/J - stretch,

Your post is filled with so many over-generalizations that my mind has imploded. I'll start and end with 2 points.

1) What price makes the pain of being betrayed OK? IMO, nothing can do that.

2) What is forgiveness to you? To me, it's no longer wishing that harm come to the offender. By that definition, human beings most definitely do forgive. Of course, other definitions could lead to a different conclusion, and I'm curious about yours.

1) What price makes the pain of being betrayed OK? IMO, nothing can do that.

I think you got him wrong. What he suggested is not aimed at working with the pain. This requires other tools. I intend to simultaneously work on it as well! What he mentioned was something to help me at a different level. He understood it very well and therefore gave a tailored response to my problem. Not some general treatment that is applicable to everyone. I think he's done his work perfectly. Personally, without the perspective, he's given me, I don't know if I had the power and determination to do the emotional work and stick to it through thick and thin. Now, I do and it combines both head and heart together

2) What is forgiveness to you? To me, it's no longer wishing that harm come to the offender. By that definition, human beings most definitely do forgive. Of course, other definitions could lead to a different conclusion, and I'm curious about yours.

I see this differently too and similar to him. Not wishing harm upon others is love, kindness or compassion. It's maybe a combination of all of them. I do find all of these three human traits important. Yet, I don't think forgiveness is mandatory. It's an option. What is mandatory is letting go and I think that does not contradict what he says. For me forgiveness is similar to letting go but not one and the same

Sisoon and sewardak, people are different. As I said his response was aiming at helping me with my specific problem. He did not intend to solve humanity's problem. I think he did it well

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:04 PM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

Thanks Sisoon,

EMDR is very successful in treating PTSD

I found it, but it states that EMDR is "similar" to CBT. Now, it's either CBT or not. It also states that it is recommended to do both???Why??? Has anyone personally gone through EMDR and had success with it? I have also C-PTSD which is more complicated than PTSD. Does it work with both of them?

Thanks

[This message edited by MrSpock at 12:22 PM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

Mr Spock, you are right. You absolutely DO NOT have to forgive. Don't let anyone pressure you to do so!

I have been reading this thread as I am a Star Trek nerd and can't add to much as I am a newly injured BS and can't make heads or tails of many things yet.

I can add though that I have been trying to logic my way through a lot of this. Analyse the who, what, when, where and whys but seem to be at the same place as I have started. It's illogical because there is emotion tied to every aspect. It has come down to the work I need to do within my self. I am trying to figure out why I am R with someone who is fully remourseful now and understands his choices were selfish, that he was lying to himself etc. but at one point chose to end our marriage contract.....

Any way, I am looking into EMDR as I have read over and over on many message boards that it helped many BS'S get over the mind movies Etc. It comes greatly recomnended.

Sleeplessincali

You don't analyze your emotions you stay and learn from them. This is how emotions heal the mind (improving the logic, wisdom, understanding and so on). Having learnt from your emotions you apply the wisdom to heal your heart. Otherwise, you simply don't know how and what you heal. If you are like me it is important to understand it, as there are not only emotions to any logic but there are also thought, drives, instincts, motivations and many more to every emotion. If one truly wants to heal than one must address the whole spectrum of the problem. We are more than our emotions although emotions are the very core of life. This is at least how I see the things and also intend to work on myself.

Understanding is insight based on direct seeing from which knowledge (wisdom) arises. It begins by observing emotions and learning through the use of your logical capacity. It continues then by applying this wisdom (knowledge) to emotions that when grow give you more meaningful understanding which deepens your knowledge. This reciprocal work of emotions and understanding (I'm simplifying because there is much, much, more to it) is what leads at the end to release of suffering including trauma. You begin the learning with feelings and emotions, by just being and observing them. Yet, ultimately what frees you is the knowledge (wisdom) you gained from emotions and feelings.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:14 PM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

Spock,

Many of us here have tried EMDR and found it successful. As with all things though, it may work for you, or it may not. It's not invasive, it's not mumbo-jumbo. I can't think of any reason NOT to try it...IF your therapist has experience with it and IF you find said therapist. This is one of those things that you probably don't want to waste a ton of time over-analyzing...either do it or not. That's the only way to find out if it will work for you. My PTSD was bad enough that I would have tried almost anything. I'm glad I tried this.

Also glad you found Stretch's post helpful. I'm more in line with Sisoon...I felt like my brain was exploding reading it. But it's again an example of not all things being helpful or appropriate to all people. So it's a good reminder that not only here, but in all of life, we should take what we leave and need the rest. While I disagree vehemently with much of what Stretch wrote, I don't take offense. To each his own.

Your wife did not realize how bad you felt. Is she not good a reading you and your emotions? Have you been extremely closed off from her? It is some combination ot these.

Your decision not to speak about your pain and suffering is due in part to your discipline. But the silence has caused a bilious ache.

Now that you have shared your feelings with your wife – and after all part of her job as spouse, friend and mate is to join together for better and worse – you will want to see if this vulnerability has put you in a position to be further hurt and betrayed.

That is why you want a pause in intimacy. You are afraid of rug sweeping.

This seems logical and emotionally consistent.

You may wish to renew sexual relations with your wife as early as you feel desire because you do have an opportunity to begin a new chapter or deeper reconciliation.

Keeping things bottled up inside may also have been an unconscious means to being the fixer in your relationship. Once you give up that obligation, your relationship may become qualitatively different.

I feel that you are not the sort of person who could stand Dr Pangloss. Let us hope for a better outcome than Candide.

Grace and Flowers

Many of us here have tried EMDR and found it successful. As with all things though, it may work for you, or it may not. It's not invasive, it's not mumbo-jumbo. I can't think of any reason NOT to try it...IF your therapist has experience with it and IF you find said therapist. This is one of those things that you probably don't want to waste a ton of time over-analyzing...either do it or not. That's the only way to find out if it will work for you. My PTSD was bad enough that I would have tried almost anything. I'm glad I tried this.

I do want to try it. It is also recommended to do a form of CBT together with EMDR. I want to do both of them as I know CBT helps a lot with PTSD. CBT also implies working on both of the levels, emotions as well as logic, head together with heart, so it seems to really fit my personality

Also glad you found Stretch's post helpful. I'm more in line with Sisoon...I felt like my brain was exploding reading it. But it's again an example of not all things being helpful or appropriate to all people. So it's a good reminder that not only here, but in all of life, we should take what we leave and need the rest. While I disagree vehemently with much of what Stretch wrote, I don't take offense. To each his own.

Grace and Flowers, I can understand how you came to this conclusion. I can also see why you're thinking that way. Let me reassure you I didn't interpret it this way. I still believe that in reference to MY PROBLEM and the type of person I AM, he did an excellent job (and was 100% right). I also do understand that his response would not be applicable to everyone. I know how to differ between things and not taking it to the direction you might have been pointing to. We must be tolerant enough to respect the difference between people without taking offence. I respect your opinion and am glad you do the same without taking offence. This is how it should be.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 1:46 AM, January 28th (Thursday)]

To answer some questions. I practiced medicine for over 40 years in a remote location (trained Internal Medicine, but by necessity did nearly anything in medicine for most of that time. For over 30 years IC and MC as there was no one else. I learned every infidelity has different details but the trick to see was what was really bothering the BS. Just as an illustration, SI has a thread where an early 40's WW with 5 kids youngest age 8, had a several month "Validation" affair with an intense volume of wanton sex acts (7-10 / week)...."All Ports In A Storm Sex".......some acts she never performed with her husband. But what seemed to particularly bother him was she sat around in the nude eating and drinking coffee while the OM drooled over her. She, of course, at home in a busy household could not do this. This bothered him. The Therapist must first found out the "what" bothered him, then the "why" of it and finally formulate a path for the BS going forward. He is in R now. They must do this again and again as one issue when laid to rest is replaced by another. Affairs just keep giving and giving don't they?

Mrs. Spock had no intent of betrayal, just extremely bad judgement getting knock down drunk at a GNO where some toxic women brought along the usual male predators. Seems to be one of these guys isolated WW, probably pretended to be drinking with her while discarding most of his drinks and when the time was ripe took her into the john, had his way and left her. DRUNKEN ONS is the only non intent infidelity. Spock, IMO, could not live with a WW that committed infidelity with intent.....many of us can't, I can't. Sometimes a therapist cannot save a marriage but can devise "life support" methods until the kids are grown and then the marriage can die in peace if the parties want this (sometimes one party wants this and the other will only just accept it). A therapist must know, most importantly, when the marriage is mortally wounded and try to facilitate the H and W exiting the marriage. When possible, try and re-balance a marriage imbalanced by infidelity with novel means. You find these means by finding what the BS is angry about. Often these "repairs" are completely different than the cheating....financial etc. Restoration of at least a modicum of "justice" is important for many men to allow them to move forward. Once in a blue moon....if nothing else works and despite telling the parties they need to divorce, but they won't, you can introduce RA.........but it the the trickiest thing to do as every detail must be thought of to prevent blow back.

Humans don't forgive because they remember but more important our species is the most aggressive species on earth and pain given is destined to be given back 99 % of the time, but we can accept most readily with re-balancing and justice adequate to ease the pain of the BS. I read and re-read Spock's thread, tried to see where he has stalled then suggested some paths that might help him. One more thing, as sad as what happened here Mrs. Spock did not lose her integrity as this was without intent. Spock therefore, before falling back in love with her should be able to do something more important in marriages......he can LIKE her again when the above things are put into place. LIKE is when you smile inside yourself when you see your spouse. I'm retired now and will hang around, wishing you both easier times ahead. stretch

Hi Stretch, once again a very powerful and helpful post

The question of intent

Mrs. Spock had no intent of betrayal. DRUNKEN ONS is the only non intent infidelity. Spock, IMO, could not live with a WW that committed infidelity with intent.....

True again, stretch. For me it's not the question whether she would have thought about the impact of her betrayal on me or not. I read here somewhere (can't remember where) the term of collateral damage. The thing is that for me whether I'm collateral or direct damage of her actions is irrelevant. She has inflicted pain and devastation on me and this is bad enough. Whether it is that or the other way, for me it is not important. You are right again. I would not be able to live with a wife that would have wanted/desired/has chosen to have/was considering/contemplating/thinking it could be nice/sought after/ and so on an affair (or even a fling/ONS). This is lacking here. I describe intent or the lack of intent therefore also as the lack of conscious and mindful decision. I still was stuck because of other reason but you already so eloquently elaborated in your other response. Thanks.

Restoration of at least a modicum of "justice" is important for many men to allow them to move forward.

Again, I'm not stupid and know that ultimately there is no justice to it. But yes, a modicum, a sense, of that justice I do need and can't move without it.

One more thing, as sad as what happened here Mrs. Spock did not lose her integrity as this was without intent.

I think you are correct again. As it lacks intent and there was no conscious decision as well as no desire to do this, I will agree with you again. As loyalty, devotion, dignity, integrity is so important to me so her lacking any intent, desire or any wish (wants) to have an affair, she didn't lose any of those virtues. Now you also helped me to see the whole context. Her actions afterwards are the best evidence for this truth.

Spock therefore, before falling back in love with her should be able to do something more important in marriages......he can LIKE her again when the above things are put into place. LIKE is when you smile inside yourself when you see your spouse. I'm retired now and will hang around, wishing you both easier times ahead. Stretch

Yes, the path to rekindle the love or build a new one again is hard and long. As everything in life it will also be a gradual one, a step by step. Thanks again, man.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:16 AM, January 28th (Thursday)]

I keep thinking about this. I can't help thinking that your wife, being as incoherent as you describe her when you found her, MAY, just may have been "Roofied" (GHB)....Gamma Hydroxy Butyric Acid. The reason I suspect this is that a drunk, even a very drunk woman, many times squirms, twists, and does offer some resistance when sexually attacked against her desires and predators know this and soon graduate to 'Roofies', They do so because the drug essentially makes the victim completely compliant to the perpetrator. The victim will even often remember talking with the perpetrator and complying with him during this time. They do so because the drug disconnects parts of the brain associated with judgement from the rest of the brain. The victim is completely compliant for hours to the perpetrator and even feels happy about it though this is not the real feeling but rather the victim OBEYING the perpetrator because of the temporary disassociated state. On recovery the victim feels shame (they only remember snapshots of what happened) because they have stepped outside themselves during the ordeal and see themselves as "happy during it" Most victims never report it for these things that cause them guilt......"They seem to have liked it...didn't they??"......so it gets buried. The perpetrators know this and it has proved more effective for them than the previous favorite, Quaaludes, Bill Cosby's drug of choice for his victims. Unfortunately GHB has a half life of only several hours.....again why predators like it. If you wish there are medical professionals that can interview your wife and venture you an opinion if that likely happened to her. Another piece of evidence is toxic women in a GNO event OFTEN bring "players" to the gig, as these lowlifes know that married women will be present without their husbands....a favorite prey for these Hyenas (no insult meant to the real Hyena, a magnificent African cat related hunter species). Think about it. stretch

T/J: oh my gosh, Stretch:

LIKE is when you smile inside yourself when you see your spouse

So true!

I've lost this.

Maybe you did , too, Spock?

Hoping time will bring it back.

My husband, like Mrs.Spock, is doing the work.

mr stretch - so BS here who say they have forgiven actually have not? that is your premise.

what about extending grace, and not exacting justice?