SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Sewardak

What about extending grace, and not exacting justice?

Why is there a contradiction?

Why not both of them?

Why not letting go and justice?

Why there has to be forgiveness if letting go does the same job?

Why do we have to give up on justice even if we believe forgiveness and grace are important?

Who said one is superior to other?

Hint: people are different, have different needs and this is judgment in itself! By the way, not everyone is religious. Grace and forgiveness are basically such concepts. For other people there are other substitudes for it. In the bottom line there is time to everything! By the way, if it works for me and apparently it works for my wife, why is there any problem? Of course, you could claim that it is not really what my wife wants and feels….but aren't you doing in this case exactly what you claim that stretch was doing in his post to others? The thing is that when we help people we must see what works for them and put our beliefs and opinions aside. It is very hard to do so but I believe this is exactly what stretch was doing.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 8:27 AM, January 28th (Thursday)]

Hi Valentinessucks

First this one:

LIKE is when you smile inside yourself when you see your spouse-Stretch

So true!

I've lost this.

Maybe you did , too, Spock? –Valentinessucks

And finally this:

With your present perspective, are you not just painting a picture that traps you in unhappiness?- Valentinessucks

If I reformulate the question to "with your present perspective, are you not bending reality to fit your beliefs (painted picture) or are you willing to bend your beliefs (painted picture) to accommodate reality", then I must admit that you've most probably found one of the most important questions I must ask myself in this whole story. Valentinessucks, this question is so deep that right now I have no definite answers to it. I must really take time to deeply reflect on it. But, I promise that when I have an answer I will let you know. Thanks, for that.-MrSpoke

Valentinessucks

I don't think I have forgotten this but due to my insincerity I've disconnected or lost it at the end of the process. I still believe that I hadn't to do anything at the initial stages to reconcile. Yet, I also know that despite this I did have the responsibility to be truthful and sincere about everything. Healing myself as well! Failing to be so I missed the point where my wife has done everything to reconcile, I was reluctant to see it and then join into the process to rebuild something new. It is there where I lost it through disconnection in due to the process.

However, there is something even more important. Not being sincere with my wife and truthful with myself I started to do exactly what you've mentioned. Instead of bending my beliefs and opinions so that they meet reality I was constantly painting a picture which basically means disconnecting myself from reality and bending truth so that the fit my beliefs. This is the deeper process of how I lost, disconnected and forgotten. In fact, it was even worse. At some stage, after a long time, I was already deceiving myself. So, as I said you have pointed to one of the deepest questions here; stretch helped me to get the answer.

When we have sex it's a nightmare. With the time I learnt to just function so I can please her. I see it as being a kind of unpaid gigolo. I make it all about her. I make her climax, give her the best time she needs and afterwards come as fast as possible to end it and get away from her. She tries and wants to reciprocate my efforts, to make the sex about me too, but I don't let her, I manage to keep it that way. I hate myself for giving her that pleasure! I hate myself for not being able to stop it right there after her climax. I hate seeing her happy face all over the time.

Mr. Spock, first I want to say I can completely understand that for you cheating was a deal breaker and it appears that you can't get over it. I agree with cheating being a deal breaker at least that is how I see it. BUT that isn't what you chose in your actions. You went forward in an attempt to save the marriage. That said, it is not too late. It seems that there is absolutely nothing your wife can do to have you truly move forward with her in the spirit of a real marriage.

When I read the above quote from your initial post, I think to myself that your are the one betraying the marriage now. If she knew your disgust and contempt of her especially during intimacy, I imagine she would be forever destroyed. Maybe that is actually what you want? Would that be enough retribution or justice for you?

Why not divorce, release her, release yourself?

Mr. Spock, first I want to say I can completely understand that for you cheating was a deal breaker and it appears that you can't get over it. I agree with cheating being a deal breaker at least that is how I see it. BUT that isn't what you chose in your actions. You went forward in an attempt to save the marriage. That said, it is not too late. It seems that there is absolutely nothing your wife can do to have you truly move forward with her in the spirit of a real marriage.

When I read the above quote from your initial post, I think to myself that your are the one betraying the marriage now. If she knew your disgust and contempt of her especially during intimacy, I imagine she would be forever destroyed. Maybe that is actually what you want? Would that be enough retribution or justice for you?

Why not divorce, release her, release yourself?- abc123wife

The thing is that when we help people we must see what works for them and put our beliefs and opinions aside. It is very hard to do so-MrSpock

abc123wife, I think you must reread the whole thread and especially the last pages

[This message edited by MrSpock at 9:08 AM, January 28th (Thursday)]

The thing is that when we help people we must see what works for them and put our beliefs and opinions aside. It is very hard to do so-MrSpock

abc123wife, I think you must reread the whole thread and especially the last pages

I have read your whole thread. I still worry that you are not being true to yourself and admitting that you have spent 3 years trying to recover from what was a deal breaker for you. In the process, you are extracting your justice by never getting over it and having contempt for your wife. But worse is that you are holding her captive by not being honest. You have started revealing some to her but have you told her how tortured you are by having to have sex with her and that you despise any pleasure you give her and seeing her smile? How honest are you being?

I have read your whole thread. I still worry that you are not being true to yourself and admitting that you have spent 3 years trying to recover from what was a deal breaker for you. In the process, you are extracting your justice by never getting over it and having contempt for your wife.

But worse is that you are holding her captive by not being honest. You have started revealing some to her but have you told her how tortured you are by having to have sex with her and that you despise any pleasure you give her and seeing her smile? How honest are you being?

abc123wife, once again your statements here dismiss basic facts that I mentioned in my thread and therefore if you read my posts and responses you still keep yourself a hostage of your own opinions and assumptions. I have answered all of those assumptions and questions in the whole thread and if you still ask those questions than you most probably didn't adress them because of your assumptions and opinions. You do not adress what I've written but what you think that you found in my responses. Again read carefully. I have no problem to discuss the first part of your response, whether I agree or not (the dealbreaker); the second one (from your first response) were simply projections

This is what I've written one page back

Since, I decided to talk everything is now in the open. We talk a lot. Really a lot! There are no taboos more.

So, I'm staying by my statement that it is a projection what you write and I think I also know why

[This message edited by MrSpock at 9:59 AM, January 28th (Thursday)]

the second one (from your first response) were simply projections

Not sure what you mean by this being my projection. What am i projecting?

Those were not my words or any type of projection in my first post. Those were your words and feelings about intimacy with your wife. Still not clear from your posts - have you discussed with your wife your feelings about intimacy with her being a nightmare? That might be something to bring up with an IC or MC to work through to get on the path of an eventual true reconciliation.

So, I'm staying by my statement that it is a projection what you write and I think I also know why

Can you explain to me what I am projecting and the "I think I know why" part of your statement since I have no clue what you are referring to?

abc123wife

Have you read my last response? It was even more than clear. You still want to see what you interpret not what I write. That's a problem if you want to help someone. It is not a matter of me not being honest but that no matter what I say you won't believe. The problem is no more mine in this case.

That might be something to bring up with an IC or MC to work through to get on the path of an eventual true reconciliation.

And yes it is something to bring in IC and MC. About that I completely agree with you. First of all, I want to bring it in IC. After I worked on myself for a certain time we will go to MC. Without me doing this kind of work, the MC won't be able to help us.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 10:10 AM, January 28th (Thursday)]

To MrSpock:

IIRC, the EMDRers I know don't noticeably associate EMDR with CBT. One former EMDR practitioner I know pretty much has contempt for CBT, if I understand that C correctly.

My other comments in the post were directed at stretch. Here's another.

T/J to stretch

You diagnosed an A on the basis of a post in an anonymous Internet forum. Would you also diagnose physical ailments based on an anonymous post in an Internet forum?

End T/J

MrSpock,

I agree that forgiveness is not necessary for R.

I'm glad stretch's posts help you.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:13 AM, January 28th (Thursday)]

Have you read my last response? It was even more than clear.

Yes, I read the first version if your post before you edited and added to it. It became more clear with your added information.

And it is OK if you don't want to reveal what you think what I am projecting and the "I think I know why" part. In you saying that I "still want to see what you interpret not what I write" is strange since I was quoting your posts. But whatever... No need to be condescending.

Thanks and good luck!

And it is OK if you don't want to reveal what you think what I am projecting and the "I think I know why" part. In you saying that I "still want to see what you interpret not what I write" is strange since I was quoting your posts. But whatever... No need to be condescending.

It's not that I don't want to reveal it. I just accept the fact that we are different and do not see it in the same way. I think that once we have agreed that I need to work on myself, that I need IC, that we need MC and that we must work towards a true reconciliation, I don't think that it's so important to concentrate on the other disagreements. Those are the really important things for me to do and we see it eye to eye. If it's important or helpful to you we can discuss it. Maybe I'm wrong. I can reconsider my decision.

I'm sorry, I just have to disagree with some of Stretch's assessment. He said :

"Seems to be one of these guys isolated WW, probably pretended to be drinking with her while discarding most of his drinks."

Whaaat? There is much about what happened that Stretch is surmising...and you...and even her, if she doesn't remember. Like Sisoon, I'm astonished that there are so many "diagnostic" statements from someone who wasn't there, and doesn't know the parties involved.

Also,

Mrs. Spock did not lose her integrity as this was without intent.

Again, whaaaat? Another HUGE statement from someone who wasn't there. And neither were you, Spock. How many times does society rail against drunk drivers, when they say they never INTENDED to run a red light and kill a kid? No, we say they made a CHOICE to drink, then drive. The one thing we do know is that Mrs. Spock made a choice to drink. If I were to diagnose the situation like Stretch, I may say that she chose to drink, chose to sleep with someone, and that she's lying when she says otherwise.

However, since I wasn't there and don't know you, I can't say that.

Instead of the over-analyzing of what, exactly, happened, you might be better served by acknowledging that it DID happen, for whatever reason, and deciding whether you can reconcile EVEN IF SHE DOES EVERYTHING "right".

It may be that you can't get past it yourself. There's nothing wrong with that. And if that's the case, to kinder just to let her go.

@MrSpock

i'm late in this thread so i apologize if this has been said.

it appears to me that the problem is that you don't have the whole story of what happened that night. you have the end of the story. you have the beginning of the story. but the middle is missing.

what happened after she arrived at the party up to the time you picked her up?

would knowing this help your healing?

Grace and Flowers

I'm sorry, I just have to disagree with some of Stretch's assessment. He said :

"Seems to be one of these guys isolated WW, probably pretended to be drinking with her while discarding most of his drinks."

Whaaat? There is much about what happened that Stretch is surmising...and you...and even her, if she doesn't remember. Like Sisoon, I'm astonished that there are so many "diagnostic" statements from someone who wasn't there, and doesn't know the parties involved.

Also,

Mrs. Spock did not lose her integrity as this was without intent.

Again, whaaaat? Another HUGE statement from someone who wasn't there. And neither were you, Spock. How many times does society rail against drunk drivers, when they say they never INTENDED to run a red light and kill a kid? No, we say they made a CHOICE to drink, then drive. The one thing we do know is that Mrs. Spock made a choice to drink. If I were to diagnose the situation like Stretch, I may say that she chose to drink, chose to sleep with someone, and that she's lying when she says otherwise.

Look, I partly agree and partly disagree.

I'll begin with stating the fact that you just mix up a lot of things. For example the choice to drink with the choice to have sex and consent! If what you are saying is true than it means that a drunken person could give consent and therefore women (as well as men) that are sexually assaulted while drunk actually can give consent (choice). So, are you claiming that women (as well as men) in this situation never get raped because they made a choice? It's a very problematic statement. I think there is a lot of validity to Stretch's and other posters assessment. The only aspect that I was in disagreement with the other posters and him was that this could happen both to men and women and that when both parties are drunk it is not rape although it is clear that there was no consent (choice). Otherwise it would be. There is a difference between making a choice to drink and then having sex while you can neither consent or made mindful decisions to it. What I tried to explain a few pages back was that it can happen both to men and to women and therefore because neither I, nor her nor anybody else could know what happened. And therefore it's better to put this discussion to rest. Again, I believe that in a drunken sex when both parties can't give consent it's not a rape or sexual assault. So, in the bottom line the problem was her choices to drink because there was intent but everything else happened without consent on both side and therefore there was no intent. Given the overall facts that I described in this discussion, I have more reasons to believe that she's not lying about this then she does. I can't prove it with a poly, but with this small uncertainty I could live. Again, look a few pages back on this discussion and especially the responses that I got to understand it. By the way, did she lose integrity by drinking to that point? Yes, but this is something I could live with. Did she lose integrity in terms of cheating? No, I don't think so. Does she lying? I don't think so because to be able to do so she must have been sober and know all fact. Given, everything that happen I have more reason to believe she's not than yes. When I left at the beginning of the thread the topic of the event itself it was exactly that. I was asked about it and only than replied. I think my approach to this was the most balanced one given the situation I was handled. I'm again referring you a few pages back to see what people wrote about it.

Mrs. Spock did not lose her integrity as this was without intent.

Again, whaaaat? Another HUGE statement from someone who wasn't there. And neither were you, Spock. How many times does society rail against drunk drivers, when they say they never INTENDED to run a red light and kill a kid? No, we say they made a CHOICE to drink, then drive. The one thing we do know is that Mrs. Spock made a choice to drink. If I were to diagnose the situation like Stretch, I may say that she chose to drink, chose to sleep with someone, and that she's lying when she says otherwise.

I do disagree with Stretch and others on the whole rape and sexual assault theory. It is ideologically fueled but not factually based. However, for other reason than you. I also don't dismiss that it can happen and in this context in true rape case your statement that "If I were to diagnose the situation like Stretch, I may say that she chose to drink, chose to sleep with someone, and that she's lying when she says otherwise" is highly problematic. Were men or women that were truly druged and and sexually assaulted "making a choice to drink, to sleep and then are lying". I find such notion very troubling although I don't think that this is the case here. It was me that stated this over many pages of the discussion. It was me that constantly was telling that we would never know the facts and that it is senseless to make those theories. Just go a few pages back and read it. I was also saying there that we should put it to rest because we would never have 100% percent certainty what happened. I think that her claiming she was raped would be lack of responsibility. It would mean running away from it! I brought also examples of women doing exactly that. The problem with all this approach is that we can build un-endless theories and we can neither prove nor disapprove any of them. Even by stretch's own statements, there could be other possibilities! So, I do know that there would never be a definite answer to it. However, read the responses I got there that are the opposite of stretch's but are actually also opposite to yours. That makes no sense. By the way, she never claimed this. So, my approach to this is very balanced because I still demand responsibility by never claiming this was an assault by differentiating the lack of consent as not being raped and attributing the intent to the drinking but not the sex. I know that I will never have the truth and was stating all the time. However, while I disagree with him on the rape theory, I do agree with him on the intent issue. Sometimes reality and life are more difficult or stronger than any theories. Some of it I can accept and some not. I don't think that one aspect I disagree with him makes everything he says wrong.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:03 PM, January 28th (Thursday)]

@MrSpock

i'm late in this thread so i apologize if this has been said.

it appears to me that the problem is that you don't have the whole story of what happened that night. you have the end of the story. you have the beginning of the story. but the middle is missing.

what happened after she arrived at the party up to the time you picked her up?

would knowing this help your healing?

Look at my response above. It's irrelevant because it will never happen. I would never have those facts. So, I have to find my way to healing with other tools. Stretch's post was one of them even if there are that or other disagreement. They are not so important. I see the overall picture in his post and it is correct.

Mr. Spock, I spent the last hour reading through this thread, and I am unsure what you are looking for at this point. you've got several (IMO) pieces of great advice, and some pieces that I didn't completely agree with, but the beauty of SI is that you have many many different voices and experiences to draw from.

It's when all those voices say the same thing that a person should pay attention (IMO). In this case, you have several different conflicting opinions and it sounds like we (as a group and I don't speak for anyone but myself--this is just personal observation) seem to be just as conflicted on several of these topics as you are.

In my mind, I think the overarching conflict of emotion you expressed that you are facing at the moment, and some implied (from what I can interpret) seem to be on par with the advice... meaning that I can see why you're conflicted. But I have no real easy solution to offer you. I can say that you have been heard, and that I believe your personal choice of outcome from this present moment will likely will dictate how you work through the internal conflict.

To be honest, I don't know if this comment will help you at all. I think I may have benefited more reading this thread than you will benefit from my response.

Spock,

the beauty of SI is that you have many many different voices and experiences to draw from.

So true. I would have, many month ago, thrown stretch's advise away, as I am very different from him. My WW was as entitled, vindictive, and unremorseful as they come. Read her posts! She has changed, greatly and is getting it now, along with her treatment for BPD.

The beauty of SI is that you describe your problems and a bunch of strangers with nothing to lose throw lots of puzzle pieces at you. Your puzzle fits only you and your past, your temperament, your spouse, your children, your age... You get to pick up the pieces and try each one. Some pieces, like stretch's, are essential for your particular puzzle. When you have it, it clicks and then things start working again. Spock, I am so happy for you that you've found your puzzle pieces for which you have been waiting for so long.

Also, I have done EMDR and for me it has been very effective. I need to do more for these damn mind movies. Like a game a whack-a-mole, as soon as I kill one, another pops up. I think they are starting to slow down though. It takes time and effort.

(((((((((SI))))))))) - group hug!

notperfect5

Yeah, isn't that funny? I mean how I came here to SI! The mindset I had? And then what some good and quality advice can do to you? The point where I was at the beginning and the place where I'm today? Yes, Stretch's advice was a masterpiece for me. An essential part for my personal puzzle! And you are right:

Your puzzle fits only you and your past, your temperament, your spouse, your children, your age.

No doubt, notperfect5, It's my puzzle. And it fits only me and my past, my temperament, my spouse, my children, my age.... This is so true and there is more to it. I just haven't had the time to post it yet.

In my opening post I also said:

"I think I have most likely built up a wall of apathy and resentment".

You know how I feel now? As if stretch managed to break this wall into pieces! I feel as if this wall is gone. There are still problems. A lot of problems! Huge problems! Yet, there is no more wall that separates between us. This is a different place. I feel as if even my body became lighter.

Anyway, it is important to say that it was not only stretch that helped me. There were many other posters as well. You were among those that helped the most at the beginning. I'm grateful to every one of you. Also those who made my life hard here!!!!! They have especially a warm place in my heart as they had the most important task of all to accomplish . And I hope you can find happiness as well - whatever you chose to do.

Thanks

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:43 PM, January 28th (Thursday)]

Just want to clarify, if I'm able, my post. I did realize when I wrote it that it sounded problematic. I would never say that people who are drinking are fully able to give consent, or that they deserve it if they are physically/sexually assaulted.

What I was trying to say, and I stand by it, is that you shouldn't be relying on anyone to interpret what happened, and whether or not there was "intent". Not even her. In the end, you have to go with your gut.