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Merida

you wouldn't marry, huh = so you'd rather wish your kids didn't exist? what'd they do to deserve being blipped out?

I don't understand that logic. I am not running away and hating my children. It's the society, its courts and institutions that are taking them away from me. If I wouldn't marry and having no children, it's not hating or this situation to do something with them! Why not rules that a WW spouse (men or woman) lose custody over children and get visitation!? Why the law that it is me that has to get visitations although my wife cheated.

think about that before blurting out the IMO sour grapes "I'm taking my ball away and not playing"

Right now it's as if we're playing on the same court but everyone plays another game. Mine doesn’t count. Or we are playing the same game but there are different set of rules four everyone. It's not sour grape it's logical decision to avoid further losses.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:35 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

Merida

you wouldn't marry, huh = so you'd rather wish your kids didn't exist? what'd they do to deserve being blipped out?

I don't understand that logic. I am not running away and hating my children. It's the society, its courts and institutions that are taking them away from. If I wouldn't marry and having no children, it's not hating or this situation to do something with them! Why not rules that a WW spouse (men or woman) lose custody over children and get visitation!? Why the law that it is me that has to get visitations although my wife cheated.

think about that before blurting out the IMO sour grapes "I'm taking my ball away and not playing"

Right now it's as if we're playing on the same court but everyone plays another game. Mine doesn’t count. Or we are playing the same game but there are different set of rules four everyone. It's not sour grape it's logical decision to avoid further losses.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 6:29 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

It's the society, its courts and institutions that are taking them away from. If I wouldn't marry and having no children, it's not hating or this situation to do something with them! Why not rules that a WW spouse (men or woman) lose custody over children and get visitation!? Why the law that it is me that has to get visitations although my wife cheated.

Have you spoken to a lawyer? Otherwise, you are making assumptions here. This isn't how it goes these days. In most cases, shared parenting is what the courts go for. In my situation, even though my ex ABUSED me he still got shared parenting. In most cases, the courts don't care about what goes on between the husband and the wife. They want what is best for the children, and they feel that having equal access to both parents is usually best.

As far as sharing the household and finances with your wife, she was part of the household. I'm sure she did her part...housework, cooking, errands, childcare, something....etc.... You aren't giving her money for cheating on you. You aren't giving her money at all. She was your partner for 20 years. She has earned half of whatever you both have accumulated at this point.

You are railing against an injustice that has not even happened yet. That is not logical.

Also, if you are very upset over the way the courts or society work, then why don't you work to change it? YOu aren't helpless in this matter, yet you are talking like a victim. After the courts abused me on top of my ex (and gave me the gift of PTSD, so I understand the mind movies all too well), I went back to school for social work. I ran for political office. I wrote letters to my legislators and actually was called into meetings with several.

You talked about how you made a huge sacrifice for this country by serving but now you feel betrayed by your country also? Our country is run by people. Therefore, it will never be perfect. As people, all we can do is try to right the injustices that we find when we can and forgive others for their imperfections. Everything else is irrelevant. When my daughter and my father and my boyfriend and my cousins and my grandfathers and my friends served, they served to keep our country free and to make sure we had the liberty to fight against injustices in our society.

You seem stuck in a loop of thinking and I am wondering if you are also suffering PTSD from this (and maybe from serving, I don't know). Are you seeing a counselor? Please look into it. You are suffering needlessly. That, also, is illogical.

ETA: Again, I am not trying to be harsh. This is coming from experience. I was stuck in a victim loop of thinking for quite a while. HOW DARE society treat me so awful when I've been a good person? The courts should have been on MY side! However, in keeping that thinking going, I was only hurting myself. No one else. It only hurt me. And then I started taking action against the injustices and had some small positive wins! THAT is something beautiful that can come from pain. THAT is what I am talking about. Making things better for others through your own pain is one beautiful thing. Breaking through a stubborn mindset and allowing peace into our lives that we have never experienced before is another beautiful thing that can come from the pain. And finding a deeper, more intimate relationship from the wreckage of betrayal is one of the MOST beautiful things that can come from pain.

All of that is possible. It just takes a lot of hard work and we have to open our mind to the possibility.

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 7:50 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

I'll offer my view from the outside because I feel I can relate. I hope this doesn't come across as critical or harsh. I don't mean it to.

You posted on this forum because you are unhappy and living a lie. You have, by your own admission, put up walls to protect yourself from the pain you feel over your WW's actions and feel trapped in the M b/c of finances and children. You seem to believe that this is your only option despite how miserable it makes you feel.

Stifling your feelings is your coping mechanism (a pretty common one that I can relate to). It has probably helped in you in many ways throughout your life. However, I think you are coming to a place where you feel that this coping mechanism of invulnerability is no longer serving you. That's the cause of the unhappiness and misery you describe.

I am seeing throughout this thread your very strong resistance to changing this coping mechanism. Many people have brought up the idea of vulnerability, and the very practical suggestions of talking to your W and seeing a therapist, but you seem to want to turn to a more philosophical discussion, away from the raw feelings you so eloquently expressed in your first post. To me, you are putting up walls again, distancing yourself from those suggestions that will make you extremely vulnerable to your W and to yourself.

My aim is not to criticize you, but to offer as objective a critique as I can and to point out a tendency of which you may or may not be aware. Obviously you cannot and will not change a lifelong coping mechanism in a single post on an online forum. But becoming aware of your tendencies and starting to explore the ways in which they may or may not be helping you, how they are shaping your reality--that's something that you can begin to consider now.

You came here asking for help because you are deeply unhappy. You don't want to be unhappy but most suggestions other posters offer (mainly about opening up) are shot down or countered with abstract ideas. I love a philosophical debate as much as the next geek, and there is great value in understanding thought systems, but what I see here is that you are hiding from your vulnerability behind such analyses.

I identify with what you're going through.

Personally, IC was necessary for me to begin to chip away at my carefully cultivated numbness and shielding of my emotions and to see how my fear of vulnerability played a major role in my life. I think you are a strong candidate for IC. A good IC can offer a safe space for you to take baby steps toward opening yourself up. It is scary to change. And I still struggle with vulnerability, but just being aware of this has made such a difference in my own sense of myself and my relationships.

I urge you to invest in yourself and your happiness. It's not an indulgence to want to be happy and to share your needs.

Sending strength and peace.

veronique12

I don't find it harsh and it's o.k. I just want to add something. A few pages ago I said that I decided to discuss it with my wife. I'm going to talk to her tomorrow or after tomorrow and give an update on it. Moreover, I have and never had a problem of being vulnerable. I do believe it is not always wise, therefore was not vulnerable to her, but I am open to explore it again. Right now I'm willing to lose everything and to take all injustice, so what's left there to hurt me more. Nothing. Even this in itself means being vulnerable. So, I don't dismiss what people say here because I decided to try the approach. I just don’t believe this is a magic spell that will solve all the problems. It is only a small fraction of what needs to be apllied for healing

Anyway, the thing is that I believe that being vulnerable alone is not enough for you. I'm sorry but one can sit unendless with one's emotions and talk and talk and talk about them but without some certain logic it's only bringing the whole department drama in your head instead of healing your emotions. To know what you are going to heal you need to open up your emotions but once you understand what's there you need your head to understand of how to do it and how to heal. In a way, it is a reciprocal way of bringing emotions to heal your head and to use your head to heal emotions.

Anyway, although I decided to be vulnerable again with her (and am still not sure that it is wise), I still got no answer to even one of the questions I raised here. However, if I'll not get it, all the emotional work of opening up and being vulnerable will not help me. One of the reasons me seeking such a board is that as standing opposed to a specialized IC people who had the experience firsthand, have a much wider "horizon" than a specialized IC who only understand it theoretically. There is much, much, more to heal there than emotions. Nevertheless, I do get new directions from this discussion and gain perspectives I wouldn't get otherwise.

After me and my wife will sit and discuss the issues, I'm sure that my next update will be an emotional one as people love here. That discussion will come too and in a few days. So, the people here will see another part of my personality and that I'm more versatile. The thing is that I know it's a mistake to leave it only there. I do hope that I will be able to discuss the other things as well.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 9:28 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

You seem stuck in a loop of thinking and I am wondering if you are also suffering PTSD from this (and maybe from serving, I don't know). Are you seeing a counselor? Please look into it. You are suffering needlessly. That, also, is illogical.

I'm not officially diagnosed but from what I read the symptoms are of an emotional burnout and C-PTSD. It is not from the military. It's due to my lovely experiences in the marriage being given to me as a gift by my wife.

Have you spoken to a lawyer? Otherwise, you are making assumptions here. This isn't how it goes these days. In most cases, shared parenting is what the courts go for. In my situation, even though my ex ABUSED me he still got shared parenting. In most cases, the courts don't care about what goes on between the husband and the wife. They want what is best for the children, and they feel that having equal access to both parents is usually best.

First, I'm sorry for the abuse. In one of my previous threads I mentioned that I have friends who have divorced – nothing infidelity related. This was not their story. It seems persistent. And normally the man getting the short hand of the stick is excused as it is always best for the kids and their benefit. I know this will be my faith too. I haven't talk to a lawyer yet.

As far as sharing the household and finances with your wife, she was part of the household. I'm sure she did her part...housework, cooking, errands, childcare, something....etc.... You aren't giving her money for cheating on you. You aren't giving her money at all. She was your partner for 20 years. She has earned half of whatever you both have accumulated at this point.

She was part of it and broke a contract. In every Business there are sanctions for breaking contract. No one has said and never have I claimed she should get nothing. Once she cheated she's still entitled to financial security. She's not entitled to more than this. There must be consequences. I'm losing half of the stuff for her cheating; I can't see my children whenever I want, because she cheated. I think a faithful spouse should get full custody over the kids and the WW visitations. Maybe, if there would be such sanctions many of us wouldn't be here on this site. Right now you can cheat and there are no consequences. For me that's injustice. The only option for me to accept it is when I've done something wrong. I haven't. By the way, tha goes for a cheating man.

You are railing against an injustice that has not even happened yet. That is not logical. So, far I know this happens every day. And when I'll be there it would happen.

Also, if you are very upset over the way the courts or society work, then why don't you work to change it? You aren't helpless in this matter, yet you are talking like a victim.

I could give you a long talk why it does not work. Yet, it is not allowed here to discuss politics. The more I read and read and the more and more I ponder this (the issues discussed here in the thread) I come there are delusions too.

You talked about how you made a huge sacrifice for this country by serving but now you feel betrayed by your country also? Our country is run by people. Therefore, it will never be perfect. As people, all we can do is try to right the injustices that we find when we can and forgive others for their imperfections. Everything else is irrelevant. When my daughter and my father and my boyfriend and my cousins and my grandfathers and my friends served, they served to keep our country free and to make sure we had the liberty to fight against injustices in our society.

I disagree. There is much more relevance to it. I do agree we need to let go (not forgive). I do believe now that if I can do something to make my suffering less by disengaging as much I can from this injustice (one of the many source of my unhappiness) than there's nothing wrong with it. Yes, I fought for everything as well yet now I get nothing from it. My happiness matters too. And that is logical as well.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:37 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

Mr. Spock, some more light reading that I think aligns with your situation (I've posted about this previously in other threads). It's about Constructive Living. It is the recognition that you don't control your feelings (inner life) or the external stuff going on (wife's action, courts, global warming) but that you 100% control your own actions, and that your actions can influence the other two things. Lots of tidbits that I think will resonate. Free book, too. Can't argue with free.

http://muse.jhu.edu/books/9780824839178

Spock,

Thank you for your excellent responses to many of our posts. One of the reasons people come here and read your (and other's) posts is because we all can learn and grow from each others ideas and trials. I am learning a lot from this too.

A recurring theme I see in some of your responses is regarding society, laws, consequences and justice. You describe burying friends who died for flawed or the wrong reasons. You see friends that divorce and get the short end because they are male and the courts are skewed. Politicians make the laws that screw the hard working, earnest people out of what is right. Injustice is common and the good are punished.

We live in a fallen world. God made the world and it's laws of nature. Satan and his buds screwed it up and poisoned it.

God made the consequence of adultery to be stoning. Now they just separate everything in equal parts (for divorce) or the betrayed gets wallow in misery for a few years to life while the wayward gets the cake and eats it.

Where is the justice? What about the OM. He got praises and ego kibbles and sex and all the best my wife could offer--the cream of it all, even gifts and money from me and my family. He moves on after and does it to the next family. Where is justice?

I've been told by my IC to pray for justice. Great... I get to sit on my hands and writhe in agony and watch him smile at me as he walks by, "Hello [NP5]!" Where is my justice? If I tell others he can sue me for damages and my wife and family are shamed. He has no wife or family to tell. He doesn't care. What is a man of honor to do?

I have spent a lifetime raising my five children and caring for my wife. I've helped her in many ways, I've changed 10,000 diapers. I've made sacrifice after sacrifice to create a safe and happy home for my wife and kids. And he comes along, seduced my wife (with her eager compliance), hits on my eldest daughter, wrecks my home and ruins me. What can I do to deliver consequences? Ruin my wife? Bust apart my family? Ruin the OM and my family's reputation in the process? It is lose-lose-lose.

There is always benefit in doing what is right. For this fallen world, there may be no reward. In fact, you may be punished or humiliated for doing what is right. In this life it may just be so. But don't let that deter you from the job you need to do. I believe this world is a crucible which prepares us for the one after. It's trial by fire refines us to be better than when we started and burns away the bad that needs to go. We still need to fight the good fight for reasons we may not understand or appreciate.

People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies. Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.

What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway.

The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.

Give the best you have, and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway.

In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.

Mother Teresa

1. You suffered a severe emotional trauma.

2. Your logical nature that serves you well in so many other ways has prevented you from processing this trauma, and you are "stuck."

3. Distancing yourself from your wife or society will not help you become unstuck. Think about all of the soldiers with PTSD. Removing them from the scene of the battle and placing them back in the safety of society did not heal their PTSD. The part of your brain that feels pain has no concept of time, and can stay in a fearful state indefinitely until it has learned how to process the trauma to feel safe again.

4. You should work with a counselor or psychologist to help you unravel this knot tied within a lower part of your brain.

1. You suffered a severe emotional trauma.

2. Your logical nature that serves you well in so many other ways has prevented you from processing this trauma, and you are "stuck."

3. Distancing yourself from your wife or society will not help you become unstuck. Think about all of the soldiers with PTSD. Removing them from the scene of the battle and placing them back in the safety of society did not heal their PTSD. The part of your brain that feels pain has no concept of time, and can stay in a fearful state indefinitely until it has learned how to process the trauma to feel safe again.

4. You should work with a counselor or psychologist to help you unravel this knot tied within a lower part of your brain.

Plan C

I want to stress this again. My logic is not an obstacle for any healing. I may have made a mistake with talking or not talking to my wife, I will give you all the benefit of doubt and say it was wrong, yet tracked down this was a flaw in logic and understanding as well including a false emotional response. You can't heal anything by being blind and do not understand what you heal. The capacity that learns is logic, you can call it wisdom. Check for example how CBT works in regard to anxiety. Many of the soldiers have to work with this. It is the best answer how both capacities of logic and emotions work together. Fear is illogical thing and it is counteracted both with the application of changing illogical thinking as well as being able to stay emotionally with fear. Staying and working only with one aspect won't help as the other when unresolved kicks in and you have the same problem again. By the way, the fearful and the fearless part are two different capacities.

In the bottom line, you can't heal, know how to process and work with related effects, other capacities and so on without having knowledge. Even if you stay in a certain state it's not just being one way, they are other possibilities and option. You must understand how it works. You must understand how you fit and position yourself into it. You must understand what an automatic response is and what is not! You must understand how your whole being is relates between one faculty and other. You must understand how to avoid what causing suffering and cultivate that which not. I'm stuck in this process because I need probably both more emotional intelligence as cultivating more understanding and logic. I think people must give a little bit more credit to guys who go into the military. Not everyone is doing it, because he has no future outside, does not understand anything of life, emotions and relationship. It's more complex than such a simplistic thinking. By the way, I also do agree about the therapy

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:34 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

Mr. Spock

"legal" is not the same thing as lawful. Man's systems are of course flawed and merely designed to enslave for the benefit of the owners = is that what you are complaining about? The "courts" are legal, not lawful. IMO they are designed to get you to wake up to recognizing

who are YOU? Are you a just acting as a "person" as in 26 US Code 7343 ? I don't know about "you" but I am not a legal fiction... so don't expect to find me among the dead at this point in time

life is the game we are all playing, don't know what you thought you were doing = did you think you were just dreaming all this time ? So are you complaining that life wasn't what you thought it was?? OK, Welcome to reality = have a cup of tea, take a sit and take all the time you need to be OK that yep, your reality (thoughts about what it was) just got nuked. It's all good, though, as it is better to have clarity than be blind to reality IMO

Reality just IS, doesn't care what you thought = it just IS = so how you gonna choose your perspective(s) from here on out?

I hope you don't limit your mind to just logic as in human thought. Why limit yourself in that sense? Why limit your world-view to just the rational as in what you see/ you think you see?

So how do you define humor? How do you know what's funny? How do you know another living soul? Maybe take some time to sit with the beauty of relational knowledge and that to fully experience and enjoy life you have to embrace the NOW

just my two cents, your journey is your journey, just at some point I hope you get to a point of recognizing life is relational more so than rational... spooky entanglements and all that quantum stuff ;-)

Human logic is limited and not equal to truth... just as language limits a concept.

Like picture a house. A fish swims in a tank in the den. People are eating in the kitchen. The fish doesn't have a clue that people are eating in the kitchen but it doesn't change the fact that people are eating in the kitchen and that the house exists beyond the fish's experiential awareness.

in order to really "see" with a single eye, as in understand that light particles/waves exist beyond just the visible light spectrum it's gonna require you to step outta that logical box

IMO

it's a logical decision to avoid further losses

I read as kinda sad if that translates to you dry docking your ship when it was meant to explore the ocean and discover new lands

hope that is not your situation... wound licking is fine just no thumb sucking

peace as you process

You can't heal anything by being blind and do not understand what you heal

exactly = but what is understanding really?

IMO emotional wounds do not heal through strictly logical processes

emotional trauma heals relative to belief and in re-establishing connection

wanted to add:

kudos to you for writing that there is emotional intelligence (speaking as one whose drill sargent back in the day had to remind me I was "thinking too much" and had to learn to value the point of training to catch the ball in the moment...) so yep, I am glad I'm retired and enjoy this charlie chaplin speech on a whole other level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug8KiS0W85Y

[This message edited by Merida at 11:50 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

Hi Mr.Spock,

I have not read everyone's responses to you but I have read all of yours.

A few quick questions and observations. You just recently mentioned C-PTSD and that was something that I was going to bring up with you as the more I was reading your responses the more I was getting that impression. There is a really good book out there regarding this, have you read it? If not, I highly recommend it for you.

Also, it definitely seems as though this was a deal breaker for you. If your wife asked you what she could give you that would give you peace right now, what would that be? And I am not talking about rewinding the clock, I am talking about something tangible that she can do.

Last thing, you mention a lot about trust and love being two separate things and I agree. For me, I am opposite of you. I have started giving love and will be very slow on the trust. I have started giving some trust back, but since I have never trusted anyone much in my life, giving him a lot will be slow indeed. However, on the love front, I have found that it wasn't on my H to build the love like I thought it would be, it was actually on me to work on that. And it was an action thing, not a feeling thing. I actually had to take steps towards rebuilding that love, and that was really hard for me, because I didn't want to for quite awhile. I resented that I had to do this when he was the one that screwed it up. So she can't fix the love end of it for you. You would have to do that. And if it is broken, then it is probably time to pull the plug.

Merida

Understanding is insight based on direct seeing from which knowledge (wisdom) arises. It begins by observing emotions and learning through the use of your logical capacity. It continues then by applying this wisdom (knowledge) to emotions that when grow give you more meaningful understanding whick deepens your knowledge. This reciprocal work of emotions and understanding (I'm simplifying because there is much, much, more to it) is what leads at the end to release of suffering including trauma. You begin the learning with feelings and emotions, by just being and observing them. Yet, ultimately what frees you is the knowldge (wisdom) you gained from emotions and feelings. It is not faith but wisdom that frees and conection is important. I had not denied the importance of conection. By the way, you need faith too as wisdom and faith are balancing each other but that is a different story

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:57 AM, January 21st (Thursday)]

She was part of it and broke a contract. In every Business there are sanctions for breaking contract. No one has said and never have I claimed she should get nothing. Once she cheated she's still entitled to financial security. She's not entitled to more than this. There must be consequences. I'm losing half of the stuff for her cheating; I can't see my children whenever I want, because she cheated. I think a faithful spouse should get full custody over the kids and the WW visitations. Maybe, if there would be such sanctions many of us wouldn't be here on this site. Right now you can cheat and there are no consequences. For me that's injustice. The only option for me to accept it is when I've done something wrong. I haven't. By the way, that goes for a cheating man.

The parallels that you have drawn on two occasions between business relationships and intimate relationships illustrate part of the problem. It's a fundamentally distorted view of the world common to superachievers, and one of their Achilles heels.

If you view marriage as a contract, a quid pro quo, you will constantly evaluate it in these terms. The 'conditions for a contract' are not the same as the needs of a marriage. This is partly why you are torn - your logical mind sees marriage as a contract and your wife in breach of it. You would punish her, divorce her, but something beneath the surface is nagging at you that it just isn't that simple. What could it be? What paradigm shift needs to occur?

This is nothing less than the Universe calling to you, trying to get your attention. Yes, I'm serious. It took a serious, terrible event in your life to get you here. It really is life calling to you, if you can take a moment and think about it. Metathink.

Let me ask you a question then, Spock. What would you do, right now, if it were NOT possible to end your marriage? What would have to change in you if you did not have that option?

And then, finally, Is it really easier to change your spouse than it is to change your heart?

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 12:07 PM, January 21st (Thursday)]

The parallels that you have drawn on two occasions between business relationships and intimate relationships illustrate part of the problem. It's a fundamentally distorted view of the world common to superachievers, and one of their Achilles heels.

If you view marriage as a contract, a quid pro quo, you will constantly evaluate it in these terms. The 'conditions for a contract' are not the same as the needs of a marriage. This is partly why you are torn - your logical mind sees marriage as a contract and your wife in breach of it. You would divorce her, but something beneath the surface is nagging at you that it just isn't that simple. What could it be? What paradigm shift needs to occur?

Let me ask you a question then, Spock. What would you do, right now, if it were NOT possible to end your marriage? What would have to change in your mind if you did not have that option?

If that is your conclusion than mine is to quite relationships and withdraw from society as I said. Call it whatever you want but this is cause and effect at its basis and exists everywhere – not only in business. The marriage is not a business? Yet, when it comes to money that should be ripped from me and forcefully enforced by a very logical legal system, than that is a contract. My view is not distorted; it's the other view that is unfounded. It's not distortion, it is how life works. If I have to abandon those basics than I'd better abandon relationships because there is more happiness. It's very logic. The paradigm shifts has occurred as you say and that I'm not into such relationships. I think in that sense I'm torn because I want to fullfil societal expectation and please everyone instead of pursuing my happiness. As to the question of inabilty to quitting the marriage so the answer would probably be giving up on all what I have and be willing to suffer the consequences as I leave the marriage anyway. It's what I said above. There is no price for freedom

[This message edited by MrSpock at 12:15 PM, January 21st (Thursday)]

If that is your conclusion than mine is to quit relationships and withdraw from society as I said. Call it whatever you but this is cause and effect at its basis and exists everywhere – not only in business. The marriage is not a business? Yet, when it comes to money that should be ripped from me and forcefully enforced by a very logical legal system, than that is a contract. My view is not distorted; it's the other view that is unfounded. It's not distortion, it is how life works. If I have to abandon those basics than I'd better abandon relationships because there is more happiness. It's very logic. The paradigm shifts has occurred as you say and that I'm not into such relationships.

So when faced by what Life presents to you as Reality, you would withdraw from it? Continue in solitude to live Life as YOU would have it be, not as it really is?

Kahlil Gibran said, as I have said here many times before: "Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your Understanding."

You, Spock, refuse to let that shell break. Not even your wife's affair would crack it.

This is your stretch then: To allow your shell to break and expand your Understanding. Of Life.

So when faced by what Life presents to you as Reality, you would withdraw from it? Continue in solitude to live Life as YOU would have it be, not as it really is?

Kahlil Gibran said, as I have said here many times before: "Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your Understanding."

You, Spock, refuse to let that shell break. Not even your wife's affair would crack it.

This is your stretch then: To allow your shell to break and expand your Understanding. Of Life.

It's exactly the opposite. I do not escape reality I escape a wrong concept imposed on it. And if you mention Kahlil Gibran, I'd prefer to take the approach of the Buddha. By doing that I'm not refusing to break the shell but pursue exactly that. I indeed expand my understanding by giving up on virtually imposed societal illusions imposed on this reality. I seek the ultimate understanding of it, not the superficiality of worldly life

[This message edited by MrSpock at 12:23 PM, January 21st (Thursday)]

The shell IS the illusion. It is what you have constructed for yourself.

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 12:27 PM, January 21st (Thursday)]

No, the ilusion is more deeper. That still superficiality. And even if it would be, it still valid what I said