SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Chifrudo

You contradict this. You say that you believe she would not betray you again but then you ask why you would put yourself out there on that limb with someone who has cut it off previously.

It's actually not a contradiction. It's about trusting and verifying.

The answer is that some people are capable of learning, growth, and change.

That is true.

If you don't believe this, then you should end your marriage now, right?

I agree but the reality is normally stronger than us or anything else. Besides, this is not the case that I deal with

But if you do believe that people can change and you are still unwilling to open up to her, then the explanation that remains is that you have a deep, paralyzing fear that she will hurt you. And for this you have my deepest empathy as I have felt this too.

That is a wrong conclusion although the statement itself is correct. There might be many reasons. One is trust and verify. Other ones are more practical. I explained them in the thread.

But, if you believe she has changed and will very likely not hurt you again, then it is incumbent on you to utilize your clear strengths of intellect, logic, and willpower to tackle this fear. Because this fear is illogical and it is holding you back from happiness with your current W and, I'd argue, will affect any possible relationship in the future. (ETA: I've thought this through more and realized that you likely already know this. So then what is truly left after you accept that this fear is not logical. It can only be pride, or more accurately, foolish pride. "Foolish" because it is hurting you and keeping you from happiness.)

It's not fear and therefore not pride too. I was going to give a longer explanation to HouseOfPlane but got new posters and replied first to them. Later I will post my answer to him so you'll see why what you say is impossible.

Do you think there is a certain immaturity in thinking of your wife as "sullied" by her ONS? I ask this because in carefully reading your posts you seem to put great emphasis on the fact that another man was inside her. First, I get this. It fucking sucks and I've been plagued by this imagery and fact, too. But I ask because after three years I would think that you would realize that what truly sullies someone is the lies and the deceit. What sullies someone is the willful, conscious act of betrayal. Another man was inside of her? What if she had been raped or had sex before marriage? Would this equally "sully" her? If not, then focus on her decisions and her intent and try to get away from the primal reaction to her being physical with another man. If you want to live up to your screen name, then this, in and of itself, can't matter that much. Now, her thoughts and decisions around this event matter a great deal and that is what you should focus on.

First, I think this kind of thinking is very mature. Second, I put great emphasis on the act, because it's the most important thing (actions speak louder…..). Third, the comparison to rape is unfounded. There are exceptions to everything and I would have forced myself to deal with it. Besides rape I would never force myself. The last thing is, that that which sullies someone are in fact many factors. The physical is one of them. Its importance lies in number three. The sex before marriage falls into this category. Besides, it is also depends on many factors and change from situation to situation. In the bottom line for me she is sullied. I would really not apologize for feeling how I feel. I also disagree that this can't matter so much, for me it's almost everything. And in my opinion lie and deceit do not aalways is worse than the physical act. In some situation I would not excuse but understand how some one lies to protect his marriage. It does not mean that I accept the behavior but for me it's less of a problem than the physical act itself. It is both in synch with logic (screen name) as well as the fact that it is clear that I want to balance the faculties (in regard to my screen name). Aiming at that logic I understand what stand behind the idea of this character and understand it's a fiction (which aims to give a sollution to the end of human suffering)

[This message edited by MrSpock at 3:28 PM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

"I don't have to do any work to reconcile and to repair."

I remember thinking this. i had to change this thought in order to stay married. i certainly didn't have to do his work. but i had to do my own.

i see that there is no wiggle room in your head. that is ok. but it makes it hard to have relationships. really though, you're selling yourself short.

just my thoughts.

Look, after six pages of this thread I already decided to talk to her. To tell everything, the whole truth. It's still agonizing and depressing that I will have to lose everything in court including my dignity. However, I do agree it's better like that. Being honest and truthful keeping integrity and honor is more important. I'm saying this because I believe it will end in divorce. Not that I want this (for the reasons mentioned here), but most probably it will end there. If we decide to try it last time, I will leave her the choice, I will be open this time and there. As I already said I quite accepted the consequences of the divorce. So, now there's nothing to lose. We'll see. It's depressing. She cheated and now the courts will do the rest of the work.

swmnbc

Yes and I find those quotes and similes wonderful. I'm also acquainted with the eastern paralels of the stoic philisophie. It's really very helpful.

Thanks

I have another question.

For arguments sake, I'll give you that you do not have any work to do. What if she IS doing the work of a truly remorseful spouse? From your description she is. So, she's doing the work, so shouldn't there be room for regaining of trust? Or, really, is there in reality, nothing she could do to make it right?

Valentinessucks

So, she's doing the work, so shouldn't there be room for regaining of trust?

This is not the problem. I feel that for many people love and trust is actually one and the same. For me it's not so! Love and trust for me is not one and the same. In my business I trust my employees. I trust my business partners. I trust suppliers and service providers. I also trust my customers. Now, some of them I actually would not like to have as friends, but I trust them. Some I neither love nor hate, but completely trust. What I am saying that trust is one thing and love is another. Of course, in a romantic relationship by definition both must exist, but it's still not one and the same.

Or, really, is there in reality, nothing she could do to make it right?

My problem with my wife is no more trust. I trust her. My problem is love. As I said the love I had for her went down the drain. It means a new love must be rebuilt. And here I have two question and still no answers. The questions are why and what (is the nature of that love). Once I have the answers I can tell her what I need. Right now I don't know and therefore can't ask (tell her) so that she rebuilds at least a small fragment of that which she's broken. Once, she has done that and has rebuilt at least a little of that love back, I will won't on this two. However, until than I'll not. In the bottom line I have no answer to those questions and therefore do not really know what she else can do.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 3:24 PM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

Forgive me for bothering you with further questions, but I find it helpful.

So, you trust your wife....as you did before that awful night?

Because, believe me, I totally get it when you speak of no love. The day I found those loving emails between my husband and his girlfriend, it was as if the fire I had in my heart for him was completely extinguished. There were even no embers.

But, here I still am, hoping to rebuild trust. If I could trust him again, I'd be in love with him again.

Valentinessucks

If this is how it works for you than wonderful. I can speak only for myself. People are also different so probably it's possible. Right now after everything she's done, the time passed and other things we've undertaken, yes I trust her that she will not do this again. Look, in my case it was different as she was completely drunken. So, it's not the type of affair you described. It's even not what's happening in the usual ONS. I even do trust her that she would not repeat the incident with the drinking.

Yet, again it has nothing to do with love. Especially, as what happened will never disappear. Also because there are other issues as disrespect. It will not happen in the future but happened in the past and can't be eradicated. As I said trust is trust; love is love; respect is respect. And the pain (of the past) is not going anywhere no matter how much you trust. You have to learn to accept, let go and live with it. It's an internal work and only to a small degree depends upon trust. Even if you trust, there is still work to be done in that sense. Yet, if there is love, then there is respect. And if there is love and respect you can rebuild everything else and sooth the pain or at least try. It is true that you need trust as well. Yet, it does not equal to love.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 3:26 PM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

It's what you do AFTER failure that really shows what you are made of.

Yes I agree with this ^

OP it does sound like you have a very remorseful wife, but understand that a dealbreaker is a dealbreaker.

I would take time in IC to peruse this. Also let your wife know how you are feeling. I did this with my WH about 5 months ago. He is more remorseful now than he has ever been and I felt relieved at letting him know how I really felt. At that time it was absolutely nothing like you.

MrSpock,

I'm going to get blasted for this.

I'm glad you are going to discuss this with your wife. She deserves it. Yes, she deserves it.

You are a man of integrity - black and white, right and wrong. And as a man of integrity, you owe it to her to divorce her, to free her. Again. You owe it to her.

She can't win. She got drunk and had a ONS. Bad choices that she should never have allowed to happen. That's on her. Since then she has done more than nearly every single WW I've seen here. And it's not enough. And it never will be. And that's okay. But that's on you. Look, no one says you need to forgive her and reconcile (and what you currently have is not reconciliation). But if you can't build a life together...if her ONS was a deal-breaker for you (and it sure sounds like it was), then you need to tell her so.

Will you get screwed in the courts? Yes. Does that matter? No. Since when does doing the right thing have to have zero adverse consequences? Talk to her. Let her know how you feel. Free her. Because right now she is fighting a losing battle, and letting her hope against hope is not fair, nor kind, nor something a man of integrity should be doing.

Best of luck.

DON'T give her everything and don't lsiten to those who say you should.

You worked hard for everything too.

It is easy for people to say "it's only money and things" when 4 months from now, they are sitting on their deck having a ncie cocktail and planning for reirement and you are applying for food stamps.

$$ means a lot and you shouldn't have to suffer because of her cheating

HOWEVER HOWEVER HOWEVER

She is as remorseful as they come, it was a one time mistake and deep down inside I feel you can get over this and shouldn't make any terminal decisions unless you are certain you can't.

One poster said they feel bad for her. I don't. I still feel bad for you. However, if there are any WS on these boards who deserved to be treated well on the way out the door, it's her.

Either

A) Determine if you can properly reconcile

or

B) if you can't, make the divorce amicable so that both of you can move on and enjoy your lives.

noone needs to be in the poor house.

Listen to NP5. He's been through hell. He's a good man.

Also, again as I emphasized early on in this thread, a physical affair or even a bad ONS is a deal breaker for me. The fact that she wasn't in her right frame of mind might lessen the blow some. But DO NOT feel badly that physical affair or cheating is a deal breaker. There are some of us who feel that way.

Next, again, I agree with you regarding the rape stuff. There was no rape here.

Again, draw a balance sheet and figure it out but get out of your pain

One last point. I may be the only person here who will say this. I think you were wise to keep the status quo including the sex life going while you determined what you needed. However, now that you can't escape it, you need to go one way or the other because now it is about fairness to her too

I'm going to get blasted for this.

I hope you're not.

I'm glad you are going to discuss this with your wife. She deserves it. Yes, she deserves it.

You are a man of integrity - black and white, right and wrong. And as a man of integrity, you owe it to her to divorce her, to free her. Again. You owe it to her.

She can't win. She got drunk and had a ONS. Bad choices that she should never have allowed to happen. That's on her. Since then she has done more than nearly every single WW I've seen here. And it's not enough. And it never will be. And that's okay. But that's on you. Look, no one says you need to forgive her and reconcile (and what you currently have is not reconciliation). But if you can't build a life together...if her ONS was a deal-breaker for you (and it sure sounds like it was), then you need to tell her so.

Walloped, I think that you are right almost with everything you said. I decided to talk to her next weekend. I'll let her decided how she wants to proceed from here.

Will you get screwed in the courts? Yes. Does that matter? No. Since when does doing the right thing have to have zero adverse consequences? Talk to her. Let her know how you feel. Free her. Because right now she is fighting a losing battle, and letting her hope against hope is not fair, nor kind, nor something a man of integrity should be doing.

It does mater, Walloped, it does matter. Only, it's the first time in my life that I will no longer be in control of anything of it – not my finances, not my kids, not my life, even not myself - nothing. And, yes I can't do anything about it. And I have to accept it. She cheated, I pay – I get it; it sucks to be a man. It's depressing. If necessary I'll do it. Yes, I need my honor, my dignity and integrity back.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:33 PM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

Western,

What I plan is more or less what you say. You made an excellent summary of my plan. I agree with you with every single word.

Thanks

One thing I know to be true, although I will admit to having trouble grasping because I am attempting to reconcile: as BS, we DO NOT lose our dignity because of an act of another human being. Even the human being we have bonded ourselves to like no other. The loss of dignity, if there is any, belongs to the WS.

Valentinessucks

In the context of dignity I did not speak of my wife. I was talking about the courts and what you become in them as a man. I have friends who had to go through it - not infidelity related. Look, it is hard for you to understand and yet it's not your fault. In my military service I was deciding about human life. I had also the responsibility for it. Now, I'm nothing when I go to the courts. This downfall is very hard for you to understand. It's as you stand on the top of the everest and found yourself in the deepest hole in earth. It's the society you used to serve that kicks you there

Yes, I need my honor, my dignity and integrity back.

I want to put in another 2 cents here...

I have chosen to try to reconcile with my wife who had an in my face affair. I don't know if I will be able to do it. My wife blamed me for the affair she laughed as I begged her to stop seeing him. I may have a heart attack due to the adrenaline dumping in my system since Aug 13. It's over now and she's getting what she did was horrible. I'll try.

But I've never once been dishonorable. I have worked to save my family as she debased herself with a musician. I maintained my integrity as she threw hers down the toilet. Do not believe for a second that someone can take your honor from you. Your actions and words may do so, but theirs do not.

I respect your opinion in divorcing her. Read Spaceghost's thread. He was a lot like you but came to the conclusion it was done in a few days.

I chose to try to reconcile for specific objectives and reasons: I love her and I believe my life and the lives in my family will be better off if we can repair things. All the shit that went down is water over the dam. What is the best course of action from where I stand right now? For me, I see more upside from staying than upside from leaving. That's me.

From what I see, you wanted to forgive, but you can't. You want to honor your marriage vow, but are released from it (by her adultery) and cannot find it possible to stay due to your feelings. Your feelings, Mr. Spock, seem to be in control of you right now.

So look at this from a logical perspective. If you could love her again, if you can trust her again, if you could forgive her again, is it in your best interest to stay? If the answer is yes, then it makes sense to exhaust the attempts to reconcile. If you believe you have done all that and it's impossible, fine. You've done what you could.

But when you say "I don't have to do any work to reconcile and to repair" I agree only in part. Healing you is your work to do, not hers. She can give you the tools to trust, to get answers, to feel loved and appreciated, but only you can heal yourself. That work is exclusively yours to do. She can drive you to the hospital, your IC and MC can stitch you back together, but only your body can close the would and make a scar.

Your going to have to do the work whether you reconcile or divorce, so why not do it now?

I've looked in many places. Looked at my wife to apologize and show remorse, looked at my IC to give me answers, gone on SI for weeks for some magic words, gone after the OM for justice, talked to friends and family, hour after hour, day after day... I felt like an addict looking for my stash of drugs--who's got my stuff so I can make the pain go away?

I am the one from whom those answers must come.

Only when I work on me to view myself as a strong, unbroken, resilient man will the pain from her actions subside. She did this to herself. She did this to herself.I am not diminished by her actions and I never will be. She's got to work on fixing herself and I've got to work on fixing me. Only when we are both strong and healed can we make this marriage work again.

Good luck Spock, and thank you for your honorable service to our country.

I am not going to try to give you advice. But please read my approach to my wife’s infidelity. We are all different and my approach may not help.

My wife told me about all three affairs. I didn’t discover them. They were not ONSs. The first was while I was deployed. She told me several years later. The last two she told me after the 3rd affair was over within the previous year. She really set about fixing her problems, but the thoughts still hurt every day just as you have vividly described in the first post of this thread. But I look at marriage as a battle between the spiritual forces of good and evil. Many demonic forces are waiting to knock out a strong marriage. I was determined to be stronger than the evil set against us and to persevere in the fight. The daily pain comes from the scars of the ongoing battle.

After both DDays I knew I still loved my wife. I was determined to never quit. It was only apparent after the second DDay that we had swept our/her problems under the rug. I believed I had a safe wife who would never have another affair. But I later learned that was not the case. With much effort from my wife, now I believe I have a jewel for a wife who is safe, or safer than she was before. She is a jewel I will battle for.

On SI elsewhere, someone said something like this:

I realized safety and security are illusions in human relationships. I could take the steps of cultivating relationships by improving communication, planning for the future, and self-improvement, but I could not guarantee that I wouldn’t be hurt again. I never had a guarantee. I probably felt more secure before the affairs, but I was always at risk and will continue to be at risk of being hurt. I had a difficult time accepting that she could easily forget about me and our children like they didn’t exist. Life has never been easy or safe. I learned to take pride in my progress and my wife’s progress towards her healing. Some wounds haven’t healed yet. I didn’t wait for the pain to stop before resuming my life. I did not want the affairs to be the legacy of our marriage. Dwelling on the affair lost its luster because living this way was unacceptable to me. I couldn’t change what happened. Allowing myself to be more vulnerable made me more comfortable instead of less comfortable. I worried less about where she was at any moment, or to whom she was speaking. I battled to focus on the future. I was not a failure. I had not betrayed her. I could give her that security.

Regarding your wife, you appear to be describing a jewel that has really shined up. I am not sure you will find another who understands the pain of infidelity better than your wife and who would be safer than your wife. You will ultimately decide. I will pray for your family’s happiness.

I agree with Walloped and I am glad that you are going to tell her.

She does deserve the truth and you do to.

No one deserves to live a lie. Both of you deserve a great life.

Your release of your feeling may lead you into a direction you do not expect.

I'm glad you've concluded to tell her, MrSpock. Reading through your posts you very much come across as a person of honour and integrity, yet by the same token you are living a lie. I hope that doesn't come across as too harsh, but it is a paradox that is clearly untenable indefinitely. You deserve happiness, as does your WW. Maintaining the status-quo won't get you there. 3 years has already proven this.

As painful as it will be to tell her and deal with her reaction, I think you will quickly find a level of inner peace, that will hopefully be both comforting and calming. I say this based on my own experience as a BS.

It does mater, Walloped, it does matter. Only, it's the first time in my life that I will no longer be in control of anything of it – not my finances, not my kids, not my life, even not myself - nothing

MrSpock - I disagree on one piece of the above. You ARE in control of yourself. Being honest and a man of integrity and honor is not dependent upon the outcome. It doesn't change depending on whether we are in control of the consequences of our actions. We do what's right. Full stop. Our actions are either ones of integrity, dignity, and honor, or they are not. The outcome is separate. So you are in control of yourself. And it is on you how you act from here on out. And no matter what happens, nothing can take away who you are and the kind of person you are. By acting with integrity, it defines you and you keep that. No matter what.

In the end, I am glad you decided to tell her. I believe it is the right move. For you and for her.

Wishing you the best.

-W

In the year 2270, Spock concludes that is is logical to choose a mate. After a whirlwind courtship based largely on chess and T-columns listing advantages and disadvantages, Spock and Lt. Uhura marry and settle down on Earth.

In 2280, while away on a mission to explore why starship members with red shirts have markedly higher mortality rates, Uhura went to a bar with friends.

Uhura started her drinking off slowly. But as she drank, her good sense began fading, and soon she was trading shots of Klingon Blood Wine with a bunch of spacers who had been strangers but who now seemed the best of friends.

Uhura's good sense left entirely, and she strayed. She was not sure how or why she had let herself and Spock down, but it had happened.

She confessed everything to Spock. She explained what she knew of how it happened, how remorseful she was, and what she would do to make sure it never happened again. She took a polygraph to prove her remorse. And for the next three years, she was the model wife, going beyond normal wifely expectations in every way to earn her trust and marriage back.

At the end of three years, Spock took assessment of the situation. Uhura had been a faithful wife for ten years. She had been a faithful wife for the thee years after her lapse. She had done everything possible to prove herself a safe partner in the future. Spock knew that if he divorced Uhura, there were no guarantees that a new wife would be any more faithful than Uhura, and certainly could not try harder or be more appreciative of him. Based on her overall course of conduct, it would be most logical to stay married to her.

Kirk, of course, would have handled it differently. Kirk might have raged at his wife in anger. He might have teleported her to parts unknown, regretted it, and then beam her back. He might have hysterically, happily, angrily made love to her. He might have reclaimed her. He might have divorced. But at some point or another, his emotions would be spent, exhausted, and he would reach a point of peace where he could look at the situation logically himself.

But what if our protagonist thought he was Spock, but really was Kirk? He'd try to use logic to analyze his emotions, but that is illogical. He'd lock up. His notions of logical self would keep him from simply *being* in his body, and letting himself feel the emotions until they drained out of him, and he reached the point where they no longer consumed him.

Someone on this board said the best way to get feelings out is to allow yourself to feel them. Have you? Have you ever let yourself grieve? Go through all seven stages of grief? Allow yourself to reach acceptance so you really could go back to being Mr. Spock?

This is a board dedicated to fighting infidelity. Most of the folks here have very harsh thoughts on unremorseful waywards. Yet you have a lot of betrayed spouses here, myself included, that are suggesting you not lightly throw away your marriage give the overall facts. I can't stress enough how rare that is, and hope you think through everything before you take action.