SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi Guys

I have read the new comments. I will adress them later as I have now to go and especially the claim that this was rape. swmnbc you had some very strong points. I will adress this later too.

Deciding to divorce doesn't mean that you have to go and file tomorrow. You can plan it, you can sock money away and change your financial picture to benefit yourself later. Talk to a men's divorce specialist lawyer, they do exist.

I waited until my youngest had graduated from high school and filed two days later. I planned everything, I even had the 90,000 mile checkup done on the car and filled the house with groceries. I knew he would cut me off financially.

Understand that I was the SAHM and he felt like I wasn't entitled to anything. Well, news flash, running a home and raising kids is hard work. Yeah, she screwed up and screwed someone. That doesn't negate the hours she's spent running the house.

I'm not in any way minimizing what devastation her choices brought into your life. Trust me, I understand. If you feel like your marriage is a sham, then you can end it. You might want to ride it out until the kids graduate from high school though, and find out how to plan it so that she doesn't get half of everything. Encourage her to go to school and earn a degree, then maybe you won't be stuck paying alimony. Just a thought.

If she loves you then making you happy is part of what gives her value, just as it does you.

She could be faking too. You need to open up to her and others. She may just surprise you and you may surprise yourself.

Swmnbc

Thank you. Your reply is the best analysis I got up to now. The strongest post so far.

But I will point out that her bad choices that night reveal that at least in that moment, she did not care about HERSELF.

This is maybe one of the strongest arguments I read up to now. There is nothing here that I can reject or logically refute.

Your wife didn't make that choice over and over again. She chose to drink so much that she was no longer in control of her faculties, and that is wrong and alarming, but it doesn't seem to me that she chose to care about someone else or stop caring about you.

My personal opinion is that in most cases WW spouses do not care, at least temporarily, about their partners. In this specific situation I must agree that she did not care about herself! Most probably, as she was already intoxicated it was too late to care about anyone – her or myself. It is her getting drunk up to this point that is so reckless. Afterwards, I'm even not sure that you can speak even in terms that she made any decision. As you said it happened once. She worked and still works hard om herself. So, this does make a difference, I guess!

My primary mode of dealing with day to day life is through reason; I'm a "thinker" and an INTJ. So I get you on that. But I also find that whenever my life has careened off the tracks, my first instinct is to energetically concentrate on my emotions. I use my reason to help me do the emotional work that I know is necessary to grow and heal.

I don't think we differ a lot on this. Stoicism (as well as some other schools of philosophy) teaches that not the emotions themselves (or anything else in the world) but our overwhelming involvement with this is one of the many reasons for suffering. It is correct! To begin with the healing we must start with our emotions. That's life. But that's suffering too. We must then apply logic to heal our emotions. We need to work and to sort a place of tranquility, which is a certain form of detachment from our emotions. It is one of the most misunderstood concepts in stoicism. It's not about bottling or suppressing emotions, not being connected with or speaking about them. It's about cultivating some "coolness" or "equanimity" and not being so overtly lost in them. Yet, in this path the ultimate liberation is logic, not our emotions. If you don't understand what you do, you don't heal. You create more problems. I think we are very close in our understanding.

All people fail us. And we fail those we love too….but in the grand scheme of human history, it's a familiar story.

I strongly disagree with it. I failed my wife, failed myself and failed other people. Still, not one and the same. You can't throw anything and everyone in the same pot. I have more self-worth than to believe that.

Some mistakes are too big to forgive . . . what is your spouse was negligent leading to death of one of your children? What if your spouse gambled away your entire life savings? What is your spouse was sexually abusing children?

I don't think that all cheating should ultimately lead to divorce. There are cases that are in the twilight zone. I think mine could be such one. Not sure! But many of the cases fall indeed into this category. I would neither say that cheating should never lead to divorce.

We stoics simply need to assess the risks. Is it likely our spouse will make the same mistake again, or a similarly devastating mistake? You already say your wife is highly unlikely to do this again. There are a million reasons why you will never consider leaving her. So why not consider loving, forgiving, and being vulnerable with her?

This is exactly what I try to find. I asked this in my opening thread. You exceeded to formulate the question even better than me. I have no answers. I haven't found them yet. I just wanted to add that I do not necessarily believe in forgiveness. I'm not religious. That's a possibility. For some of the people! It's also not necessary. However, I do believe in letting go. Yet, I still haven't found that place too.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 6:02 AM, January 18th (Monday)]

EasyDoesIt

Deciding to divorce doesn't mean that you have to go and file tomorrow. You can plan it, you can sock money away and change your financial picture to benefit yourself later. Talk to a men's divorce specialist lawyer, they do exist.

I waited until my youngest had graduated from high school and filed two days later. I planned everything, I even had the 90,000 mile checkup done on the car and filled the house with groceries. I knew he would cut me off financially.

This is another struggle. I know I can do this. Yet, this is not me. I don't want to do this. It sucks that through such laws I have to behave like this. This is also betraying who I am. Therefore, there are two choices. Either, I stay like I'm living now or on the other hand giving her everything. I've chosen the former one. Reading the many posts I do understand that at least I have to begin considering the other option. Namely, divorcing and yet giving her everything. Right now I have no plans to leave, but I can't guarantee that it will not happen.

Understand that I was the SAHM and he felt like I wasn't entitled to anything.

I'm sorry about your husband's behavior. This is not what I'm thinking. This is not my views. And this was not what I was saying!

Well, news flash, running a home and raising kids is hard work. Yeah, she screwed up and screwed someone. That doesn't negate the hours she's spent running the house.

I was not implying that she does not deserve anything. I was not suggesting that the consequences in the divorce should be her ending up on the street homeless. I was also not hinting to the idea that as the result of her infidelity she should end up on food stamps having a problem to put food for the children (and herself) on the table. I believe there should be some middle path between having consequences and a crusade filled with revenge and vengeance. Well, once a spouse has cheated than he must understand that at least his life of luxury is over. She is entitled to a decent life but she is not entitled to the same quality of life she had with me. Believe me even if I give her much less than half of my stuff she would still live a standard of life that many others can only dream off. If she wants the same high standard of life as she had with me than she should put a little bit more effort into it after she cheated.

Besides, it's not the money at all. I'm not greedy. It's about the principle. Let me tell you something. As a SAHM and the one that runs the household naturally it's her that has the say over the money I bring. This is how power is balanced in a healthy marriage and relationship as long as the needs and the opinions of both partners are taken into consideration. She is not as powerless as it might seem! Nothing has changed in this regard after the infidelity. Once she got mentally more stable everything returned to normal. So, at least there should be some consequences here as well. As I said, if I'm going to the court I'm only losing more control and power over my life. Yet, she'll be able to control me even more. It's not about the money. It’s about the principle, the injustice, the loss of control and power and the humiliation (the first one through her actions and the second one by the laws and courts that reward this kind of behavior). It's also about the fact that this everything is cemented by law and enforced by the state. As I said it sucks to be a man.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 3:28 AM, January 18th (Monday)]

However, baring our souls to someone who managed to betray is not wise.

Why do you say this? What are the possible adverse outcomes to doing so?

HouseOfPlane

Just, from a practical point of view. If I'm living in a really bad and dangerous neighborhood, I'm not going to leave the door of the house open. Does it mean that I will not invite anyone into my house? Of course, not! I can't see a problem here. There could be many adverse outcomes, but it's irrelevant. I do it to protect myself of whatever adversity or bad outcome there might be. Showing weakness is not always good. Sometimes it is. It's not some absolute stuff. In a dangerous situation and in crisis I will never show weakness. Even if I'm afraid! It's the same psychological effect as the two boxers staring one in the eye of the other. The one who loses first the eye contact due to a weakness has disadvantage. And by the way there is a difference between vulnerability and weakness. Also in the battlefield you do not show weakness. I was in extreme situations. Do you think I was not afraid!? Of course I was. Yet, I first of all never showed it to my soldiers and besides I just knew how to approach fear with fearlessness. It's something many people don't understand. Fearlessness is not the absence of fear but not being afraid of it. You have fear but you still know how to stay calm, tranquil and courageous.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:31 AM, January 18th (Monday)]

Next, in your description of her drunken night and her inability to remember things, have you considered that she was drugged? You said she was not a drinker. Neither am I. I would be puking long before I got to blank memory pass out drunk.

In my state, the man could have been charged with rape for having non consensual sex due to her extreme state of drunkeness, even if they were "friends". Have you considered this? A drunk or drugged person cannot give consent for sex.

Lovedyoumore

If she was drunk, how could she agree to sex? are you sure this was a ONS?

sewardak

Sewardak, while Lovedyoumore explicitly was pointing that this was allegedly rape, I think you were pointing also there, so I included you both in one response. In my opening thread I actually left the details of this night for a reason. I was asked about it later. Two reasons I mentioned were the years that passed since then and the other was that it is still painful. Yet, another reason is that due to circumstances I will never know the exact extent of the truth. It's not her fault. It's not her lying. It's just what happened. The problem is that when there is no possibility to know the truth we can build whatever theory we want. There would be also no possibility to refute the one and to verify the other. Everything would be possible and yet also impossible. You can't proceed like that. I still want to address the possibility of rape and tell you where there is a problem with this.

First of all, she was not the only one that drank there. All of them were heavily drinking. All of them were not able to give consent. Yet, it is interesting that both of you and I understand why decided somehow strangely that the blame should be put on the man but never on the woman. Let me tell you something, I don't care if he was drunk or not, but if the piece of shit would fall into my hands, I would most probably cut his head off. Yet, the thing is my wife is no saint either and I'm still married to her not him. Now, I know most people would not believe this so I found you only some of almost countless stories where women rape men and very often overcome both the problem of the man not consenting to sex as well as the physical strength with the help of …….. ALCOHOL! If you want to read this so you will see that technically it is possible. If I look at my wife's surreal actions on this night then have you considered that she might be actually the one that instigated this unconsented sex with alcohol? Frightened idea, no!?

The thing is that when all the parties are drunk it is irrelevant who instigated it or not and most probably this was somehow mutual. The thing is that I'm not very impressed by our law system. I explained it in the above threads in regard to divorce. I'm also not impressed by the law in your state that you mentioned. The reason is that it is doing a disservice to real rape victims. Not to people with reckless behavior who got drunk and then having guilt in the morning regret their actions while eventually sending someone for no reason into prison. DRUNKEN SEX IS NOT RAPE. It is irresponsible and reckless behavior. Anyway, if I accept your point of view and apply it equally to both drunken parties then either I'll have to accept the fact that it could be my wife that was the "perpetrator" and having to have compassion towards the piece of shit or that my wife could eventually rug sweep her problems claiming she was raped to cover up her infidelity. You don't believe it is possible? I found many stories but will mention only two below.

So, first of all check this story of Nicola Osborne. This woman got drunk and ended up in bed with a man and had “extensive sexual activity.” The episode was entirely consensual and the two swapped phone numbers after they were through. On the way home, it occurred to Osborne that her husband might not think very highly of her “extensive sexual activities” and she became flustered and visibly upset. When passers-by came to her aid, she told them that she had been forcibly abducted and raped by a stranger, sparking a massive police response to find the rapist. A subsequent DNA test led police to the man whom she had slept with and he was arrested and held for 12 hours. Once the truth came out that the encounter has been consensual, Osborne was charged with filing a false report and sentenced to 18 months in prison. (Story published in the independent online). Some women can lie about rape to cover up their infidelity. My wife did not do this and I appreciate it. I really do! The problem with this sort of lying is that while she might get away with it this time she does not address her problems. So, the cheating might occur again. Especially if she thinks that she can lie and this remains undiscovered and unpunished!

The second one is a very similar story to the above one. Check also the story of Kelly Harwood. She is a woman that had a few drinks and decided that sleeping with her friend’s son was a good idea. Upon reflection, she decided that she had betrayed her friend by doing so and reported her friend’s son for rape. She told police that she had been raped while sleeping, and her friend’s son was subjected to an “intrusive medical examination and interviewed under caution.” Two days later, Harwood relented and admitted that she had lied about the rape. She suffers from depressive illness, exacerbated by the amount of alcohol she had consumed. Some women can also lie about rape because they feel guilty about their infidelity (this one I found in the herald Scotland online). Again, I'm happy my wife does not resort to those kinds of tactics! Not because I have so much compassion with the piece of human filth that fucked her, but because she needs to address her problems.

I also found these two stories:

"Women Need To Be Educated About Sexual Consent, Right Now They Aren’t"

"19 Men Share Stories of Being Raped By a Woman"

You can see in this stories that alcohol is a common tactic used by women that want to force men to have sex with them without consent. I didn't research it too much yet from what I've seen it is not so rare. You might want to check more on this topic. Furthermore, I'm not an expert on alcohol and actually do not touch any sort of it, but from what I know, here is for your consideration some basic information on Blood Alcohol Level and possible effect:

0.16-0.19 BAC: Dysphoria predominates; nausea may appear. The drinker has the appearance of a "sloppy drunk."

0.20 BAC: at this level you experience dizziness, confusion and you can become disoriented. Some people may need support with walking and even standing. Some people are immune to pain. Some people experience nausea and vomiting at this level. Blackouts are likely at this level so you may not remember what has happened (I think my wife reached that level but I can't say for sure)

0.25 BAC: All mental, physical and sensory functions are severely impaired. There is an increased risk of asphyxiation from choking on vomit and of seriously injuring yourself by falls or other accidents.

0.30 BAC: STUPOR. One has little comprehension of where he is. One may pass out suddenly and be difficult to awaken.

0.35 BAC: Coma is possible. This is the level of surgical anesthesia.

0.40 BAC and up: Onset of coma and possible death due to respiratory arrest.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:44 AM, January 18th (Monday)]

I understand you feel like you are stuck.

Let me ask you this. Have you started a journal ?

Sometimes, writing things and thoughts down help in the process of healing as well as allows you to collect your thoughts, make sense of them and track your progress.

Western

No, I'll think about. It could be a good idea. Thanks

Even as a cop, I agree with your analysis of rape claims and the legal system in general

False reports of rape are filed often. In some jurisdictions, prosecutors won't even go after people who file false claims because they don't want to 'discourage' victims from coming forward even though these false accusations destroy lives. Further, yes, many men are sexually assaulted too and I have seen first hand how many are not treated with respect by the law. Kudos to the prosecutors who went after Osbourne.

The law is supposed to be equally applied and fair but it is not, never has been and is only getting worse IMO. This includes DV, hate crimes, or even public servant misconduct

So yes, kudos for your wife not playing that card.

She seems to be doing more than what 99% of the people here received from their waywards.

In the end, Spock, you have to figure out how to get you to a place of peace and an understanding of what you have to do to get over it since you are staying in the marriage anyway.

Have you considered hypnosis, EMDR therapy or meditation ?

[This message edited by Western at 7:38 AM, January 18th (Monday)]

Just, from a practical point of view. If I'm living in a really bad and dangerous neighborhood, I'm not going to leave the door of the house open. Does it mean that I will not invite anyone into my house? Of course, not! I can't see a problem here. There could be many adverse outcomes, but it's irrelevant. I do it to protect myself of whatever adversity or bad outcome there might be. Showing weakness is not always good. Sometimes it is. It's not some absolute stuff. In a dangerous situation and in crisis I will never show weakness. Even if I'm afraid! It's the same psychological effect as the two boxers staring one in the eye of the other. The one who loses first the eye contact due to a weakness has disadvantage. And by the way there is a difference between vulnerability and weakness. Also in the battlefield you do not show weakness. I was in extreme situations. Do you think I was not afraid!? Of course I was. Yet, I first of all never showed it to my soldiers and besides I just knew how to approach fear with fearlessness. It's something many people don't understand. Fearlessness is not the absence of fear but not being afraid of it. You have fear but you still know how to stay calm, tranquil and courageous.

So which side of the team is your wife on? Is she the enemy, or is she one of your teammates? In order to fight the best fight, don't you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of all of your team? Or do you BS each other, in which the truth emerges anyway with first contact?

Somewhere between your current approach and "baring the soul" lies the "living a life of truth", and you aren't doing that. You are hiding. You are living a life of lies. where is the honor, courage, and commitment in that?

There are (at least) two horrible things about affairs. The act itself, and the lies. You've said that your wife isn't leading a life of lies, that it is the act itself. You are the one who is doing the lying now. How would it feel to you to know that for the last three years, your wife has been having sex with you and then going into the bathroom and vomiting from the disgust of being next to your body and having it trigger nausea? I wouldn't wish that on anybody, yet you are doing that to someone that at least in the past you loved.

A marriage requires openness and transparency, devotion to the truth. It exposes you to vulnerability, and so therefore requires courage to commit. Honor demands that you are either in or out and live truthfully.

These are things I had to tell myself. This is an internal conversation that I am sharing with you, Mr. Spock. Food for thought.

Whatever path you choose, I am hoping for the best possible outcome for you and your family.

Sending Strength!!!!!

I'm glad my post was helpful and resonated with you.

I think you are doing a degree of emotional work simply by coming on here to sort through your thoughts.

Not really related to your questions and responses, but putting myself in your shoes, this would be my concern: what has your wife done to allay your concerns that she could, one day if the circumstances were just right, become so very drunk again that she makes more bad choices? I know she has cut off those friends, but has she entered any kind of counseling to address her drinking? Perhaps your walls are because you feel this is an open door that could lead to more out of character behavior?

I do think "fake-it-til-you-make-it" is important in any long-term marriage. You can't be married to someone for decades and not have periods where you think, "Eh. You're not really doing it for me right now." But in your case, I think you've taken it too far. It hasn't turned into to "making it" for you. So I'd try something new. Hypnosis, like the previous person said. A marriage retreat. Journaling. Honesty. I'd just throw a bunch of darts and see what sticks. Because I don't think you would have come on here if you wanted things to stay the same.

Hi HouseOfPlane

The more I read what you've written, the more my realizations on the nature of our reality become gloomy and dark. And the more I reflect on the nature of our relationships, the more they seem depressing! I'm sorry if I sound beaten up, but your post was extremely important. You shouldn't feel bad about it. In the bottom line, in this reality if I try to protect myself from injustice, I have by definition to resort to some level of dishonesty and lack of honor (like playing with the assets and money as some poster suggested). However, if I want to be honest and keep my honor, I must allow injustice no matter how humiliating it is. It means that I have to accept the fact of being fucked over by her the first time and being punished for this by the courts for the second time. Well, it is really hard to swallow. Yet, I do guess that if I want to keep my honor and truth, I have to accept it despite the consequences.

Anyway, in terms of stoic ethics we discussed this is I guess accepting the reality of a war disability. However, if I'm accepting this injustice, the next level of logic conclusions would be that if I'll be away from her it will be easier for me to protect myself. This means that I can now anyway "bare my soul to her" as it is not so important anymore. She can't take advantage of this anymore as I'm willing anyway to swallow and allow injustice. The third conclusion is that if "I bare my soul" and am ready to allow injustice so at least from the point of view of inner truth and honor especially after the three years I should give her "a true shot at reconciliation" after what I deed and a last chance to fix this (which will maybe prevent the injustice?). As all posters despite their view on divorce or reconciliation have said the same thing as in regard to my situation it is rare that everyone is wrong. So, I'll prepare myself and talk to her in a few days.

Is she the enemy, or is she one of your teammates?

Right now maybe none of them. I can't define her as an enemy right now but neither as teammates. Maybe I'm wrong.

You are hiding. You are living a life of lies. Where is the honor, courage, and commitment in that?

I wish I knew. I will be the first one to admit the validity of this statement. It's not in all area of life but for sure in this one. I had at least the honesty to admit exactly that in my opening thread. Her affair changed me and I can't recognize myself anymore. As I wrote in a previous post I know I have betrayed myself. Now, it has become a double betrayal. The first one by staying and the second one by the lack of honor and dishonesty. I'm not so admirable anymore. I'm no more a role model as I was for my soldiers. In fact, I hate what I've become in the wake of her affair. I haven't lost that all but I have also to see not to lose what's left. In fact, in that sense I must return to what I used to be.

That's really depressing. If I would be now 20 years younger and knowing what I know today I would have probably never married. Why contributing to society, why contributing at all, why working so hard, when this everything goes down the drain because she cheated and is rewarded for these actions. It sucks.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:53 AM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

swmnbc

I think you are doing a degree of emotional work simply by coming on here to sort through your thoughts.

Yes, it helps me a lot and I agree that this is also a sort of emotional work.

Not really related to your questions and responses, but putting myself in your shoes, this would be my concern: what has your wife done to allay your concerns that she could, one day if the circumstances were just right, become so very drunk again that she makes more bad choices? I know she has cut off those friends, but has she entered any kind of counseling to address her drinking? Perhaps your walls are because you feel this is an open door that could lead to more out of character behavior?

I mentioned this in my opening thread. She's still going to IC and group therapy. She has done tremendous work in self-growth and many more. My problem is not the trust and I will explain it later in a following post. My problem is love, letting go (you called it forgiveness) and vulnerability. The way I see it is that trust and love are not one and the same. I trust my employees; I trust my business partners and so on. Some of them I trust although I would not like them as friends. Some I trust but neither like or dislike. Of course in a marriage love goes together with trust. Yet, it's not the same. I trust her but I still struggle with the questions of love, letting go, vulnerability and so on. I think if at all, this has to do more with the disrespect, the humiliation, the hurt, the injustice, the senslessness and maybe the fact that due to her mental state she couldn't be really there for me. Maybe, I don't know.

I do think "fake-it-til-you-make-it" is important in any long-term marriage. You can't be married to someone for decades and not have periods where you think, "Eh. You're not really doing it for me right now." But in your case, I think you've taken it too far. It hasn't turned into to "making it" for you. So I'd try something new.

As I wrote to HouseOfPlane I am going to talk to her.

Hypnosis, like the previous person said. A marriage retreat. Journaling. Honesty. I'd just throw a bunch of darts and see what sticks. Because I don't think you would have come on here if you wanted things to stay the same.

This is true

[This message edited by MrSpock at 7:56 AM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

Have you considered hypnosis, EMDR therapy or meditation?

Western

No, not yet. I'm not familiar with the EMDR therapy and actually don't know what it is. Hypnosis is not something that speaks to me. Meditation is something that I could consider. Due to my training I studied martial arts and continued with the training after the military services. I am trained in various discipline and in one specific of them it requires a meditative training although it is a special type of it. Anyway, I could imagine myself doing this.

Well, I haven't read this complete thread, but I'll wade in anyway.

I think it's very possible you're spending too much time in your head. Being betrayed by one's W involves head, heart, gut, and genitals. You need to work on all damaged areas to heal.

Doing all the head work you're doing doesn't at all help heal your heart, gut, or genitals.

I suggest getting into IC with someone who will help you process your feelings.

I think it's very possible you're spending too much time in your head. Being betrayed by one's W involves head, heart, gut, and genitals. You need to work on all damaged areas to heal.

Doing all the head work you're doing doesn't at all help heal your heart, gut, or genitals.

I suggest getting into IC with someone who will help you process your feelings.

sisoon

I disagree with you on that. Feelings are only the beginning and if you don't know what and how you heal(your head), you won't do this. Besides, even if the statement is correct that it is all of the things you mentioned then you still need more than feelings as I said. By the way, I agree the betrayal has to do also with heart gut and so on. I don't agree with the genitals at the amount it sounds (to me) from this statement. As I said the problem we have is not that (maybe you missed it because as you said you haven't read all the thread). Anyway, thanks

[This message edited by MrSpock at 1:23 PM, January 18th (Monday)]

Another totally surreal thing! The only thing she remembers is his first name. A complete stranger! I mean just thinking about the danger she exposed herself. As I said surreal! She was with her girlfriends. He was a friend of one of her (female) friends. From there things got complicated. She got drunk. Never done this before! Ended up having the one night stand! After he fucked her he left her completely drunk. He just used her like a whore.

This is the account from you that made me question your wife's ability to give consent for sex. I did not say it was rape, I only asked about the possibility. It sounds as if your wife was used, not the other way around, and still appears by your description, he left her drunk, not the other way around.

I did not and do not condone crying rape to cover infidelity, ever, and I find it puzzling that you took that trail. Women who are drunk or drugged to the point of blackout are victimized. I saw in your description that the man used her and walked away, in your own words. Three drinks in a man used to alcohol does not have the same effect as three drinks in a woman who does not drink.

I am personally acquainted with "drugged drink" rape and it is hard to remember, hard to admit, and hard to prosecute. Very few women who experience this even talk about it and sometimes take years to process what really happened. The non consensual rape statutes in our state are not set to only prosecute men, but are written with non gender language. It could be man/man. I wrote my response to you for consideration due to your own, unique situation which involves your wife and a man, "who left her completely drunk" and "used her like a whore". Non of this sounds like your wife got him drunk and used him.

I am a BS. I have been betrayed by infidelity. I am not just a passerby who would suggest a fake rape allegation to excuse your WW and her behavior. I am concerned about you and your wife. I hope you find peace.

Lovedyoumore

Another totally surreal thing! The only thing she remembers is his first name. A complete stranger! I mean just thinking about the danger she exposed herself. As I said surreal! She was with her girlfriends. He was a friend of one of her (female) friends. From there things got complicated. She got drunk. Never done this before! Ended up having the one night stand! After he fucked her he left her completely drunk. He just used her like a whore.- MrSpock

This is the account from you that made me question your wife's ability to give consent for sex. I did not say it was rape, I only asked about the possibility. It sounds as if your wife was used, not the other way around, and still appears by your description, he left her drunk, not the other way around.

Lovedyoumore

Well, this is really interesting how you interpreted this passage. Lovedyoumore, do you really think, especially in this situation, that I was claiming my wife is a true whore? I mean literally!!!??? Yet, more than this! Do, you really think that all the BS's mind movies are rational and objective? I was not trying by that statement to logically prove that my wife is a whore. I used it to describe the pain and constant suffering I'm in as well as how surreal the situation was not ultimately true. Besides, when I was referring to him using her, I was pointing to the fact that he fucked her and then left her in a dangerous state which maybe could be life threatening without informing anyone. This is not rape and I was not pointing to the fact that he sexually assaulted her.

It is also interesting that you didn't ask me for clarification about what I mean but decided that this could be a sexual assault and now are bringing this passage as evidence. The way how I interpret it is that this is minimization of her actions. Now, after we clarified what I mean, than if I apply the same logic of the unconsented sex to both drunken parties than in theory it can be that she used him and him being afraid he fled the scene at the first possibility. The fact is most probably that you have a worldview as it is only a man that can sexually use or assault a woman but never the other way. If you would read what I gave you and research more on this topic than you would learn that this is a myth. The problem is we will never know exactly what happen yet you still were pointing to the "possibility" of rape without clarifying what I mean. The way how I interpret it is as if this is a minimization of her actions

Women who are drunk or drugged to the point of blackout are victimized.

Men too!

Three drinks in a man used to alcohol does not have the same effect as three drinks in a woman who does not drink.

How do you know he was used to alcohol? As I said I will never know the whole truth but you state this so definitely. If you talk in the general, than what has it to do with a woman's ability to drug a man and plight him with as much alcohol as he needs until he cannot consent to sex. Have you read what I suggested? If yes than you would know that that's not only possible but it happens a lot. And by the way there are women who drink; a lot and more than man. I do not touch alcohol.

Very few women who experience this even talk about it and sometimes take years to process what really happened.

If very few women admit it than how many men would admit? Almost zero! Men will almost never do this because no one will believe them and actually in most cases they will be themselves accused for their rape.

The non consensual rape statutes in our state are not set to only prosecute men, but are written with non gender language. It could be man/man.

You say it is written in none gender languages but then only mention male on male rape! It is paramount that you left female on male rape and women that are raped by women. By the way, this has nothing to do with my claim which still remains valid that DRUNKEN SEX IS NOT RAPE.

For me that everything seems as minimizing the actions of my wife and especially when things are not clarified with me first hand as to the meaning of my statements

[This message edited by MrSpock at 12:13 AM, January 19th (Tuesday)]

Spock,

Would it be fair to say that there is a clash between your internal logical self and the external (WW)dynamic that you cannot control?

Its the adult version of the foot-stamping old "this is not fair" routine that just will not go away.

Maybe you've also had a well intended marriage counselor wringing her hands at your stubborn refusal to accept, try to forgive, and move on. Maybe your wife also is whole-heartedly contrite, reformed, trying, etc. Still, that is somehow not enough. It doesn't take away the images in your head, that's for sure.

The alternative? We all know. Shuck a long term marriage that you don't really want to give up on, rip apart an exacting plan, existence and assets.

What's it going to be, your life or your pride? You don't get to keep both. Is this sounding familiar to you? The impossible choice.

Don't want a divorce, but don't want to live with the specter of infidelity in you bed with you the rest of you life. I've decide that for some percentage of us, this is like accepting a disability. Its going to be with you, and you just have to tough it out. Not a rosy picture.

Spock, I am so sorry for the pain that has brought you to us. The support here is amazing, isn't it?

I think the bottom line for you is that your wife has been "sullied" by another man. It's a deal breaker for you.

We can each give our input to help you create a mindset in which to reconcile with your wife. I'm not sure you are receptive to the idea of true reconciliation. I get this. I really do because I find myself sitting on the fence as well. Sometimes wishing that circumstances had me divorcing immediately instead of working so hard and feeling so little most of the time.

We can reference the thread started last year by SpaceGhost. He knew straight away that he could not live with his wife's infidelity. He predicted a future living what you are living now, and he divorced immediately.

Is this the right or wrong thing for you, only you know your deal breakers.

The fact that you post here bearing your soul is testimony to the fact that you are feeling restless in your situation. I think you are trapped between what is just and what is right for your soul.

I wish you strength.