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If I have to sum up the above:

"I realize I'm at best her plan B, but I'll take it."

Do you really think that is setting a good example for your kids and that they will be able to maintain healthy relationships with good boundaries with that as an example?

Of course not. The question is if I'm genuinely not her plan B.

It is believable that she felt so powerless and fearful she couldn't take on the challenge of having a significant conflict with me before or during the affair. It's cowardly behavior, but that's not shocking.

It's also believable that she sees the world much differently today than she did two months ago. She now feels open and connected to me and recognizes that she lost sight of the children and even her own future. Now she sees a world where she can build a healthy relationship with me and wants nothing more.

That is possible--and as long as feel like it's possible--I feel I owe it to myself to try to fix things. The difficulty is identifying genuine remorse and rebuilding from the possible manipulation of me just being an acceptable plan B.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 5:56 PM, Tuesday, May 3rd]

There is absolutely ZERO doubt that you are plan b. The question is are you ok with that until it changes or if it never changes. Both are possible. But you absolutely are plan b.

My question would be - if your children had a partner like this, would you advise them to stick it out?

There is absolutely ZERO doubt that you are plan b. The question is are you ok with that until it changes or if it never changes. Both are possible. But you absolutely are plan b.

My question would be - if your children had a partner like this, would you advise them to stick it out?

I was her plan B in Dec. and most of Jan. for sure--and in Feb. and March it's unclear what I was in her head--but her point is that I'm not her plan B now. I have no idea if that's true.

Her Plan A AP #1 did not work out. Her being with you now IS her compromising for her plan B (you). This is still her falling back on plan B (you). Do you think for a second if AP #1 would have left his wife, you would have her with you?

You may be plan A now, but only because her Plan A (AP #1) did not work out. Plan A now and being the fallback guy because AP #1 wouldn't commit is still Plan B to my mind and I would not stand for my wife settling for me in my own marriage because her AP would not commit.

That is the lesson you are teaching your children and the example they will use building their own future relationships and in setting their boundaries.

[This message edited by DictumVeritas at 7:34 PM, Tuesday, May 3rd]

I was her plan B in Dec. and most of Jan. for sure--and in Feb. and March it's unclear what I was in her head--but her point is that I'm not her plan B now. I have no idea if that's true.

I am sorry that it hurts but it is not true. The definition of plan b is the other option when the planned option didn't work out. That is what happened here. You have to decide if you are ok being plan b because you are. This could change if your wife literally changes who she is and who you have known her to be for decades. But it certainly didn't change yet.

The way you describe the beginning of your relationship sounds very much like who you are dealing with now. It sounds like she has always been like this but the cheating removed your rose colored glasses. In my relationship, they never went back on.

For some reason you don't seem to feel worthy of her having to do all the work to prove she should be given the chance to make you her priority. You still want to do all the digging and labeling and explaining. There is no logical explanation for what she did and is doing. She did it because she is selfish, immature and has poor boundaries and needs a lot of individual counseling to address her own issues. She hurt you on purpose and it is not something that can be undone in a few weeks or months. It seems like you would be a real catch for many so I would hope you begin to see yourself that way. You should focus on that instead of what she is doing. If you want to enjoy the sex bombing (because that is what it is) that is your choice but recognize it for what it is.

Do you think for a second if AP #1 would have left his wife, you would have her with you?

I don’t think that was an outcome here. I suspect it was in her mind in the early days, as I’ve noted, but once she got to know him she found him unstable and a poor match for her as a partner. She just wanted to keep fucking him.

So I was her plan B for a relationship at the start and her plan B for sex throughout. Lucky me?

For some reason you don't seem to feel worthy of her having to do all the work to prove she should be given the chance to make you her priority.

I don’t know what to do. She is seemingly doing things to show her love—she sent me a sexy photo today and bought me a cookie at my favorite bakery. But who gives a shit? Not me lol.

She’s willing to talk all the time and seemingly open and honest about everything. I don’t know what else to ask or what else I expect.

I just don’t know what’s in her heart and waiting around every day to look for clues is killing me.

My question would be - if your children had a partner like this, would you advise them to stick it out?

Yes. My objective view is that divorce, as a whole, is bad for everyone—the individuals, children, and society as a whole. When you divorce, two people just bring their problems to other people and shatter the family life of their children.

That said, heeding my own advice is incredibly difficult.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 8:09 PM, Tuesday, May 3rd]

I think straight out you need to recognize that her love for you disappeared. There comes a time in most marriages when the over the top sexual pull disappears. It cannot be sustained. New AP, new sex, are heady. Every hormone is tap dancing. It feels like love. It is euphoria and has a shelf life. If you two stay married how are you going to fall in love with each other gain? You can’t that ship has sailed. So now you need to back away from trying to fix it immediately. You both have too much talking to do.

If your personality is that strong then you need a life coach. They can help with how to recognize when you are over the top. I think reining in your take charge personality will be a benefit. Rational thinkers are black and white and you won your arguments but it sound like a milder form of gaslighting. You set it up so she couldn’t win. If you want a good relationship with her you need to give and take. Reciprocity is the only way to sustain and good relationship.

It is time to stop talking about the affair. The truth is she wanted out. (Your marriage was not working for her any more and then she was groomed by a master. The sex was great. She felt heard and it was a fantasy). What you need to talk about is how to stop accusing each other, feeling dismissed, using contempt as a weapon. Every marriage is set up at the very beginning. Once set up every one has a role. The problem is one often feels like a second class citizen. That is when resentment happens. No one condones her cheating. It was a slap in the face to you. This could be the wake-up call you both needed. It also might help if both of you could take the time write down what is good about the other and what needs to change.

I don't believe divorce is bad for everyone. I have seen many families survive it and thrive. Given about half of marriages end in divorce I know plenty of people on their 2nd marriages, incredibly happy, and the kids are doing great, maybe because their parents are so happy.

Doc, I don’t mean this to sound malicious and hopefully you won’t take it that way. I’ve read through all 32 pages of your thread and quite honestly, I’m not sure what more you’re looking for here. Page 10 is the same as page 20 which is the same as page30. You seem to have a need to analyze this this entire situation to the "N’th degree, so much so, that at times, you seem to be taking both sides of the argument. In business, it’s called negotiating against yourself! Your wife, while currently superficially pushing the right buttons, appears to be just an onlooker in real/true healing and R. I won’t reiterate what others have said but it seems to me that you’re at the point of fishing or cutting bait and further posts won’t change that. I’m not advocating that you D or R. That’s your choice and you have to live with it. But that choice is clear. Either you R and accept the fact that you’re the fallback plan or you D and move on with your life. I don’t think 10 more pages of banter will change that choice for you. I think you seriously need to sit down, face reality, and examine what your life will be like in either scenario then make your decision.

Ok. So she is in IC. She has sex with you now. And she buys you a cookie.

You deserve more. I suggest you bring her here and have her sign up on the WS forum,so she knows what she needs to be doing.

I typically don't think a bs should invite their ws here. But, I think,for you,this would be a good idea. The WS here have a finely tuned Bullshit meter. They will call her out. And she needs that.

Here's where I am now with regard to what I think happened.

How about you share this with your wife (minus your final comments about being plan B)? Perhaps it will provide you with more insight on her thought process pre, during and right after the affair. If she agrees 100% with your interpretation, it means you can actually read her better than you think.

Does she agree with your version of her story in your last long post? If she is being honest about it then maybe she is also being honest about her current feelings. The truth is... pursuing R is a risk that does not always work out from both the BS and the WS perspective. You have to be willing to commit to R for some time to see if both of you are going to stay the course. If she is showing early signs of commitment, which she seems to be, then that is more than some WS ever show.

The other side is her betrayal was multifaceted, the A, her treatmeent of you and her dissing you to her family. That is a lot to recover from. But you seem to be more patient and willing to try to understand her perspective than many BS so it may well be worth trying R.

I think an awful lot of WW have their fantasy bubble burst during their affairs. They spiral down and don't realize what the hell is happening in their own mind. It seems pretty common.

T/j. Sammich, this is a place for sounding boards. It’s where people virtually gather to talk to death how to fix things, accept things, grieve, ask the same question over and over hoping for a different answer. It seems like you are losing interest. Life is not like that. He loves his wife. He has children. He needs feedback and we need to be patient. He is in pain and this is still new.

Ok. So she is in IC. She has sex with you now. And she buys you a cookie.

You deserve more. I suggest you bring her here and have her sign up on the WS forum,so she knows what she needs to be doing.

I typically don't think a bs should invite their ws here. But, I think,for you,this would be a good idea. The WS here have a finely tuned Bullshit meter. They will call her out. And she needs that.

How should I go about that? Should she link to this thread in her post or have her go in fresh with her own post? And won't it complicate things if we're both reading what the other is posting?

You need to know why she changed into the meek mousey person early in your marriage. The way you describe her when you met is very much the same as her behavior with AP early on. The change to what you describe doesn't come without a trigger. Most likely a significant one. I'd spend more time poking there more than on her rationale behind her recent behavior. Have you done a poly? Do you really know who your wife is? Is she the carefree, sexual woman you describe that you married. Or the meek resentful one of most of your marriage? Do you know if this was her first A or did she dabble in this before and been burnt?

How about you share this with your wife (minus your final comments about being plan B)? Perhaps it will provide you with more insight on her thought process pre, during and right after the affair. If she agrees 100% with your interpretation, it means you can actually read her better than you think.

I already did that actually. She's going through it now to highlight what she disagrees with. I'll report back with her response though.

We've texted a bit today and her position is she never planned to leave me for AP--she quickly found him to be unstable and felt they were not compatible. She feels she was spineless and now feels pathetic. She strongly disagrees that I was ever her fallback option, despite all evidence to the contrary. She just says she was angry with me and unhappy with her life.

She says the badmouthing wasn't to smooth a path to separation, it was to justify to herself that she wasn't wrong to do what she was doing (though that seems in conflict with the idea that she never felt guilty...).

Ultimately her feeling is she was caught in a situation that she didn't know how to get out of--all she wants now is to prove she loves me and plans to never stop trying.

Honestly, reading through her texts just sound like bull shit to me. She just wants to say the things that will get her out of this mess--and I know that's the case because virtually nothing she wrote was hurtful to me.

I think an awful lot of WW have their fantasy bubble burst during their affairs. They spiral down and don't realize what the hell is happening in their own mind. It seems pretty common.

I do think that's possible--she began the affair thinking I was the worst man on the planet and then quickly found out it's a jungle out there. But even after finding that out and realizing she wanted to stay in the marriage, she still kept having sex with him lol.

I also think it's likely that all the pain and shame from me finding out magnified her mistake to make her thoroughly regretful of doing this. I just don't feel the empathy--it still feels like all of this is about her.

You need to know why she changed into the meek mousey person early in your marriage. The way you describe her when you met is very much the same as her behavior with AP early on. The change to what you describe doesn't come without a trigger. Most likely a significant one. I'd spend more time poking there more than on her rationale behind her recent behavior. Have you done a poly? Do you really know who your wife is? Is she the carefree, sexual woman you describe that you married. Or the meek resentful one of most of your marriage? Do you know if this was her first A or did she dabble in this before and been burnt?

So we've spoken about this at length and I've touched on it in this thread at times. Her actions with the AP were very similar to how she was when she met me--using sex and fun to win my attention. She had some really bad friends during that time and she was in a new relationship with me--I was a bit of a killjoy when it came to party life; I preferred staying home and watching a movie than going to a city bar and dropping $100 on bad liqueur. I also do have a bit of a dominating personality and I can see how she may have felt demeaned at times.

I think between me and the bad friends, she got knocked back on her ass a bit and went into her shell. It got worse after the car accident, bad therapist, and being fired from two jobs. She just shrunk. I was never able to pull her out of her shell and her self-esteem remained dog shit.