SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So, I’m recommending that you might want to try my system I described above with your wife.

We did—we tried a version of that system. The idea of date nights, typically a Friday or Saturday evening designed with an expectation of sexual contact at the end of the night. It didn’t work for either of us truthfully. For me, sex once a week isn’t enough—it’s not a compromise I can live with. And it’s made worse by the fact that on that night, I still felt zero sexual desire.

As I’ve mentioned, the worst part of our sex life wasn’t her refusing me sexually—that was just a part or it—the worst part was her engaging in sexual contact with me, but ensuring that I knew she wasn’t happy with it. The most typical sexual contact we would have was me giving my wife oral sex and after her orgasm her being upset with me that I hadn’t cum yet myself.

The mental gymnastics I’ve been doing for years to make that make sense in my head is more vast than I can contemplate clearly.

I woke up this morning feeling like a recommitment to her is a recommitment to to this feeling for the rest of my life.

I want to update my post from earlier this morning. After writing it, I put my phone down and rested my eyes in bed, my wife still asleep. She eventually woke up and cuddled into me.

I felt her hand roaming around my body, caressing my chest. I knew where it was going, so I stopped it. I held her hand still and I told her I didn’t want to fool around.

I turned my back to her and rested my eyes, trying to clear my thoughts. Her hand continued, caressing my back. It went on for 15-20 minutes, with me aroused through most of it. Eventually her hand made its way down and made that discovery and she began a gentle HJ.

I felt frozen. I can’t even describe how I felt. I had no idea what to do—I almost cried; I almost got up and left; but I just couldn’t react. I felt like I was outside of my body—actually a better description would be that I felt I was trapped inside my body.

She was being kind and loving and eventually gave me oral sex until I had an orgasm. We then lied next to each other another 45-60 minutes without a word.

I feel so confused right now.

The logical part of my brain wants to see what happened as a manipulation on her part—she saw me distant and hurt last night and wanted to regain some control by pleasing me.

My gut tells me that isn’t it though. It really felt like a mix of compassion and pity. She just saw my pain and wanted to take it away.

Unfortunately, I feel like I’ve become an entirely untrustworthy source—I don’t even know what I’m thinking, so attempting to diagnose her is a fool’s errand.

I feel like I don’t know who I am anymore—and I’m not entirely certain who I want to be. I’m too emotionally charged to think about any of this clearly and I recognize that. Hopefully a workout will help clear my head.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:27 PM, Saturday, April 30th]

Her past actions have made it so your trust in her is low. Every BS understands that experience. We can interpret intent in many ways at all times, let alone after being betrayed.

Is her trying to please you manipulative? Perhaps. She wants to R, so she acts to please you. I don't think of that as manipulative unless she is doing it so you will rugsweep the affair. If she is trying to please you to show she loves you, to help you heal, then I don't see it as manipulation. Unless it is connected to something that is purely self serving on her part. R is not self serving in my mind when the BS is open to it.

But you might feel it is because you are hurt and angry. And I think it's natural to be angry, hurt or confused when receiving her attention because she did not do this for you any time recently but did it for the AP. But it is part of what you want moving forward, right? It's an action you want from her but you will need time to grow to accept it and enjoy it. It's a mindfuck getting what you want and it only seems to come from the betrayal. But I think you have a good chance to get through it and begin to enjoy it. And she needs to be consistently open to a much healthier relationship sexually... you could view this as a start toward that goal.

You respected what she wanted the night before.

When you told her no, she did not respect what you wanted.

I think the logical part of your brain is 100% right. She does not empathize with you, at all.

Why doesn’t anyone talk about morning sex. That gets all the juices, and feel good hormones, going for the day. If everyone is jumping out of bed then it’s time to go to bed a little earlier so your mornings are for loving.

Yes to morning sex. Just: yes.

DrS,

In general, R is not a commitment to feeling and thinking the same way you have been feeling and thinking all along. It's the creation of a different M, one that serves both of you.

If, however, in your case, your W won't change her basic passive-aggressive, scared approach to life, you may not be able to create a ne M that serves you both. Committing to R in your case could be committing to way you think and feel about your W and your M as you do now. You're the one who is best positioned to know how much your W is willing to change.

It's great that you're asking the most difficult questions about your life. Getting your answers is, IMO, the only way to make a better life after the trauma of being betrayed. So keep asking yourself those questions.

Some of my basic questions for my W were: 1) Do you love me? 2) Are you in love with me? 3) Will you commit to monogamy and meet that commitment from now on?

That 2nd question is the same as your 'need' for your W to desire you. It's not a need that must be fulfilled for you to continue living, but, IMO, the M needs mutual desire to stay alive.

I think Clouds is right about your W not respecting your wishes this morning, but she might have thought that you were just being hard to get. If she was sexually abused, her views of sex will be much different from yours, and the differences you mention are signs of CSA (childhood sexual abuse). With or without CSA, it looks like your W has to build an entire, new view of the meaning of sex for her to become the sexual partner you want. That's very hard work for anyone.

There are 2 ways to invite your W to lead. One way is to stop leading yourself and hope that the leadership vacuum will draw her in.

Another is to ask for what you want. For example, ' I want to plan a vacation. Will you help? If not, I'll make plans that please me but may not please you. And if you don't participate, I urge you take responsibility for anything you don't like that I plan. You got your chance to participate. If you refuse, will you take responsibility for the consequences?'

And then watch. If she participates in the planning, great. If she doesn't but takes responsibility, that's great. Both are positive for R.

If she doesn't participate and doesn't take responsibility, that's great, too. That's data that feeds into your D/R decision - it's positive for D.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:27 PM, Saturday, April 30th]

But it is part of what you want moving forward, right? It's an action you want from her but you will need time to grow to accept it and enjoy it.

I don't think this morning is what I want. I don't know for certain her intentions this morning, but it clearly wasn't overwhelming sexual desire for me. At best, it was a nice gesture on her part, but I'm looking for more to intimately reconnect with her.

And since it's become a topic...that's the key difference between morning and evening sex. We have young children who are up and running around early in the morning, so any sexual activity is rushed and hidden. With an evening sexual experience, we're uninhibited to really enjoy each other.

She was up for wild, carnal sex all night long with another man, so it's hard for a quiet morning HJ to make me feel whole again. It feels like pity, not love.

I think Clouds is right about your W not respecting your wishes this morning, but she might have thought that you were just being hard to get. If she was sexually abused, her views of sex will be much different from yours, and the differences you mention are signs of CSA (childhood sexual abuse). With or without CSA, it looks like your W has to build an entire, new view of the meaning of sex for her to become the sexual partner you want. That's very hard work for anyone.

I spoke with her briefly this morning. She didn't hear me tell her no (she has hereditary hearing loss and wears hearing aids now, but didn't have them in first thing in the morning obviously). I didn't fully communicate my feelings and she can't read my mind.

She hasn't had any CSA, but she did have a very impactful situation in high school where she was cheated on--she was not sexually experienced and was still a virgin so the guy cheated on her for his sexual gratification. A year or so later, he had sex with my wife while he was still in another relationship and told my wife he had broken up with his GF--that's how she lost her virginity, being used for sex after being initially neglected for lack of experience.

She went to college months later, an ocean away from her family. She began her college life having sex with 4-5 guys in the first two months--most lived on her dorm room floor and she was rotating around having sex with all of them. In her mind, she wanted to be sexually experienced so a guy couldn't hurt her for that again. She felt a little ashamed, but largely she felt empowered (it's all just the confusion of an 18-year-old girl entirely lost).

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but by the end of Oct., about a dozen girls on the dorm floor had an intervention with her, telling her she needs to slow down sexually. It marks a key moment in her life and she reflects back on it often. She recognizes now how right they were, but in the moment she felt defiant--she just felt like saying fuck them and doing whatever the hell she wanted. And she did--over the next two years she had sex with 20 or so men.

The shame of it built and all she wanted was to be loved, but guys only wanted to use her for sex. And that includes me when we met--she was a fuck buddy for me while I was emotionally attached to another girl denying my affections. She threw fun sex at me to get my attention, but it took a long time to hook me in. Eventually I grew attached to her and slowly fell in love with her as a person.

For her, sex never changed--it's always just been in a tool in her toolbox to control men. She's never known it as anything else. And I never knew she felt like that about it.

She's now trying to relearn what it means to love someone in a physical sense--she's trying and I can see that. I think this morning was more on me being in a terrible emotional state than her doing anything wrong.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 5:01 PM, Saturday, April 30th]

Dr., this is going to be a long haul. One thing you mentioned about the hysterical bonding, you are spot on, I don’t think you can look at it as genuine.

My WW and I are HS sweethearts and were each other’s first and only, so we learned together. Sex was always an important part of our relationship. It always came easy to both of us and for a long time, we were 4-5 times per week.

After dday (nearly 7 years ago), it has dropped off significantly to about once a week. She is going through the aging process (as am I) and her drive and mine has certainly lowered. I’ve also felt similar to you about being desired. I think a lot of women feel that men just need physical attention to get aroused, but as we get older, the brain is an important factor in sexual arousal.

My WW would also weaponize sex and use it to try to control me. It never worked, all it did was make me resent her for it.

I think the counceling is very much needed for her. You would probably get a lot out of your own sessions with your own IC. A lot of the things you bring up are similar to how I’ve felt and still feel today. My WW has made good progress over the years but our life together isn’t perfect, and is forever changed as a result of her A’s. It comes down to if you want to put in the effort, she has demonstrated that she isn’t very decisive, and you will likely need to lead a lot of the recovery. You just need to decide if it’s worth it.

You sound like a guy who has his head on straight. A lot of women would be tripping over themselves to be in a relationship with you.

Dr., this is going to be a long haul. One thing you mentioned about the hysterical bonding, you are spot on, I don’t think you can look at it as genuine.

My WW and I are HS sweethearts and were each other’s first and only, so we learned together. Sex was always an important part of our relationship. It always came easy to both of us and for a long time, we were 4-5 times per week.

After dday (nearly 7 years ago), it has dropped off significantly to about once a week. She is going through the aging process (as am I) and her drive and mine has certainly lowered. I’ve also felt similar to you about being desired. I think a lot of women feel that men just need physical attention to get aroused, but as we get older, the brain is an important factor in sexual arousal.

My WW would also weaponize sex and use it to try to control me. It never worked, all it did was make me resent her for it.

I think the counceling is very much needed for her. You would probably get a lot out of your own sessions with your own IC. A lot of the things you bring up are similar to how I’ve felt and still feel today. My WW has made good progress over the years but our life together isn’t perfect, and is forever changed as a result of her A’s. It comes down to if you want to put in the effort, she has demonstrated that she isn’t very decisive, and you will likely need to lead a lot of the recovery. You just need to decide if it’s worth it.

You sound like a guy who has his head on straight. A lot of women would be tripping over themselves to be in a relationship with you.

I appreciate the message.

I agree that I’d benefit from my own IC, but with our CT and my wife’s IC, I feel like it would be a lot to dump on us financially right now. I feel like I’m getting a lot from the CT sessions—I look forward to them—but it’s something I’m closely monitoring if I feel I need more directed attention.

And I appreciate the confidence boost—it’s always nice to hear—but my fear isn’t being lonely. I know I could find plenty of willing partners and explore where those relationships go. But I also think my marriage is salvageable and I can’t justify walking away and hurting my children as long as that’s true.

I’ve touched on this before, but I really can’t understate how important I think it is for the children that we R. I understand it’s worse for them if they’re in an unhappy home, but they’re not. Even now, through the hardest parts of my marriage, they’re still very happy and loved by both of us. I think there is an outcome here where I feel loved and respected by my wife and we allow the kids an opportunity to grow up in a positive family environment.

There was another big moment for my wife today as well—she went out for a jog and broke down crying. She’s reading a book about "letting go" and took the advice to heart, trying to let go of what she perceived as the biggest resentments in her heart: 1, her sexual past in college; 2, how she often felt belittled by me.

In occurred to her that neither was the primary issue—the issue has always been her self-esteem. She recalls at a very young age (10~), looking at Seventeen magazine and others, modeling her entire identity at being attractive for men. It likely stems from a lack of validation from her father, but her entire life, from pre-adolescence, has revolved around trying to please men.

The revelation hit her like a ton of bricks and she understands she’s been angry and bitter about that her entire life. I think we’re still a ways from understanding all of this, but as I keep saying, she is trying.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 8:37 PM, Saturday, April 30th]

This is all good, means she and her IC are digging. My WW too has "daddy" issues, abandonment, self esteem, etc. my WW’s father passed away just before her most recent A. I’ve asked so many times how sleeping with some POS that doesn’t care about you one bit helps the grieving process….it doesn’t.It may explain some coping mechanisms, but the choices to betray your partner are as simple as she wanted to, he wanted to, so she chose to, simple as that.

Now, how she allowed herself to stoop to this level is something that is routed in her FOO and upbringing, and IC can help with this.

I had to basically threaten D to get my WW to invest in IC to figure her shit out, because I wasn’t going to spend the rest of my life with the wife I started with.

Since the dust has kind of settled in the explosion of the affair I think that I would be a good time to assess where you are at personally. You had some self-destructive tendencies with previous marital issues. Are you the type of guy who usually ‘fixes’ things. A lot of times those who do end up with negative behaviors when presented with issues outside of their scope of influence.

The mind is a very interesting thing and will present these issues as manifestations of a fetishized or deep rooted desire. Freud made a career off of analyzing that.

I am so sorry that you're going through this. Wishing you all the best.

This is not that hard, at least from the perspective of those who have seen this play out so many times:

1) Your wife is re-inventing your married life and her inner dialogue, coming up with resentments and all kinds of "reasons why" she decided to incinerate her marriage. Hellfire was right now:

Ok..part of the work you need to do, is you need to stop tip toeing around,worried you might set if her crazy irrational resentments. And,really,they ARE so irrational. It's as if she is looking for something, anything, to get mad at you about, to justify her shitty behavior. You are not wrong. She is. You can not live your life, worried that you will cause her to be resentful.

Honestly, I don't think she's resentful nearly as much as she says she is.

2) She is pussy-bombing you, plain and simple, and has been as soon as she possibly could after being busted. She withheld sex from you for years on end, then gave herself in every possible way, in ways she never did for you, to some fucking sleazebag in the the cheapest, most tawdry venues like his car in a parking lot and motels.

Now she can't keep her hands off of you! She is magically attracted to you and wants your dick, is initiating sex etc.

Ask yourself if she really is into you that way after all of those years of not being into you physically? And why?

That doesn't mean she has come up with a concrete plan that she wrote down in a book:

Step A: If rejected during the night, in the morning, give Dr. Strangelove a handjob until he lets me blow him.

Step B: Once his head is swimming with sex, cry and tell him I only did it because I resented him for being such a meanie.

These are simply natural and classic manipulations of cheating wives to turn their betrayed husbands head around.

It is so standard, if you just read back in this forum you will see it over and over again.

I applaud the fact that you are rejecting her insincere sexual overtures, because that is what they are.

***

You wrote on an earlier page that although you are an atheist, you take marriage very seriously. I am not an atheist, but I am extremely far from religious. And no matter what their philosophical foundation, in this sub-forum you will be hard-pressed to find people who honor the promise one makes when they marry more than this group.

And that is the difference between you/us, and your wife. She has not all of a sudden started valuing you and your marriage. She is scared about what she stands to lose.

She is literally pulling out all of the classic busted cheating wives tactics. Meanwhile, you shoulder everything, ruminate about everything, analyze everything, make all of the effort. The real effort that is.

I think you should value your marriage. Try everything to save your marriage since that is what you want. But the smart thing to do is view all her actions with skepticism if not cynicism, because that will land you a lot closer to who you are really dealing with, as opposed to the person who is "explaining why she fucked a cop" to you, your therapists etc.

***

P.S. I implore you to read the reconciliation forum regularly, read back stories in Just Found Out, and even pop over to the "wayward side". The recidivism rate in outrageous.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 6:50 AM, Tuesday, May 3rd]

1) Your wife is re-inventing your married life and her inner dialogue, coming up with resentments and all kinds of "reasons why" she decided to incinerate her marriage. Hellfire was right now:

"Ok..part of the work you need to do, is you need to stop tip toeing around,worried you might set if her crazy irrational resentments. And,really,they ARE so irrational. It's as if she is looking for something, anything, to get mad at you about, to justify her shitty behavior. You are not wrong. She is. You can not live your life, worried that you will cause her to be resentful.

"Honestly, I don't think she's resentful nearly as much as she says she is."

2) She is pussy-bombing you, plain and simple, and has been as soon as she possibly could after being busted. She withheld sex from you for years on end, then gave herself in every possible way, in ways she never did for you, to some fucking sleazebag in the the cheapest, most tawdry venues like his car in a parking lot and motels.

Now she can't keep her hands off of you! She is magically attracted to you and wants your dick, is initiating sex etc.

Ask yourself if she really is into you that way after all of those years of not being into you physically? And why?

That doesn't mean she has come up with a concrete plan that she wrote down in a book:

Step A: If rejected during the night, in the morning, give Dr. Strangelove a handjob until he lets me blow him.

Step B: Once his head is swimming with sex, cry and tell him I only did it because I resented him for being such a meanie.

These are simply natural and classic manipulations of cheating wives to turn their betrayed husbands head around.

It is so standard, if you just read back in this forum you will see it over and over again.

I applaud the fact that you are rejecting her insincere sexual overtures, because that is what they are.

***

You wrote on an earlier page that although you are an atheist, you take marriage very seriously. I am not an atheist, but I am extremely far from religious. And no matter what their philosophical foundation, in this sub-forum you will be hard-pressed to find people who honor the promise one makes when they marry more than this group.

And that is the difference between you/us, and your wife. She has not all of a sudden started valuing you and your marriage. She is scared about what she stands to lose.

She is literally pulling out all of the classic busted cheating wives tactics. Meanwhile, you shoulder everything, ruminate about everything, analyze everything, make all of the effort. The real effort that is.

I think you should value your marriage. Try everything to save your marriage since that is what you want. But the smart thing to do is view all her actions with skepticism if not cynicism, because that will land you a lot closer to who you are really dealing with, as opposed to the person who is "explaining why she fucked a cop" to you, your therapists etc.

***

P.S. I implore you to read the reconciliation forum regularly, read back stories in Just Found Out, and even pop over to the "wayward side". The recidivism rate in outrageous.

My sense is it's an overall feeling she had and not related to stupid specific things she is citing. She felt dominated by my personality in our marriage and she lacked control over anything I didn't let her have control over. Some of that is on her for being quiet, but I also deserve some of the blame for being so oblivious to it.

My concern now is why after moving passed me, burning every bridge, and finding another man she was able to be her true self around, does she so desperately want to resume a life with me? Logically, she should now see she can be "happy" in another relationship and seek that out, but despite repeatedly pressuring her on this point, she is committed to changing herself because our talks, reading and therapy--she genuinely seems to see how fucked up she is and feels like she isn't capable of long-term happiness with anyone until she works on herself significantly.

As for the sex, it's tough--on one hand, obviously she knows I'm on the fence and wants to sway me; on the other hand, her opening up sexually is one of my primary requests and she's complying on it. If she wasn't sex-bombing me, I'd be angry about her still being shut off from me. She's going out on a limb to be vulnerable and either take the lead or reciprocate, so faulting her for that would be cruel of me.

Lastly, of course she doesn't value marriage and now realizes how much she has to lose. That's all 100% true. But that would always be true in my situation (and most others)--so does that being true mean other things also can't be true? Is it not possible she could lose a lot without me and genuinely want to be with me? I don't know, but I'm sure as hell digging into it--I spent all last night on the topic.

I've read through many of the other sub-forums/threads and believe me when I tell you that I see precisely what you're pointing out and it consumes my thoughts. Rededicating myself to her is a leap of faith I can't make--I need reasons, not a wishful choice.

she's complying on it.

No sir. She is simply doing what she's always done. She is using sex to get HER desired outcome. She isn't doing it because she suddenly has some new connection with you. As you have said,she doesn't value marriage. She spent years not valuing you. She trashed you to everyone who would listen. And now,suddenly she wants sex with her husband? No. She is,as the men around here say, putting you in a pussy coma. She is using it to get what she wants. She doesn't care what you want. Her behavior throughout the marriage proved that. She knew you wanted sex,and she didn't give a shit. What she wants is for her life not to change. She doesn't want to have the kids part time. She doesn't want the kids to know what she did. She doesnt want them to have a stepmother. Since she makes more money, she doesn't want to have to pay you alimony,or child support. She has a nice cushy life,nice house, extravagant vacations,and a man who loves her so much that he will stay with her,and still want her, after she has proven she has no respect for him,and zero regard for his feelings. It's a huge ego boost. Just as she got with the OM. She traded sex for the ego boost. And that's a big part of what she is doing now.

You WANT to believe she is genuine. Because if the situation was reversed, you would be. But,as you have said,your wife isn't that deep when it comes to emotions.

Her mask has slipped many times. You need to really pay attention to those times. Because that shows you what's really going on here.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:28 PM, Tuesday, May 3rd]

You are trying to get this to make sense. Your body is in the freeze, flight or fight mode. Freezing, hoping this is a nightmare, fleeing because your brain senses danger and fight because you are enraged and scared of the unknown.
So many of us on here ask…what will your life, thoughts, dreams be in a year, 2 years, 5 or 10. Right now you probably can’t see past tomorrow.
Your health is so important that you need to ask for help when needed. Something for anxiety and depression and for sleep. Nothing else is as important.

she's complying on it.

No sir. She is simply doing what she's always done. She is using sex to get HER desired outcome.

yes.

She felt dominated by my personality in our marriage and she lacked control over anything I didn't let her have control over. Some of that is on her for being quiet, but I also deserve some of the blame for being so oblivious to it.

NO! What in the world are you telling yourself. Your wife is not the victim here. She was not powerless. She found her power just fine when she wanted to. She vilified you just fine. She is very good at getting what she wants with bad behavior and since her behavior is appalling and nonsensical, you are twisting yourself in knots trying to make sense of it. It is impossible!

What you wrote does not align with a wife who talked shit about her husband to everyone possible.

So I thought I'd give you all a bit of an update. I recognize that I'm living this experience minute-by-minute and you're all left to pick through clues of what I'm writing (and it's appreciated!).

Here's where I am now with regard to what I think happened.

I fell for my wife because she was carefree, sexually open, wonderful socially--she was a balance for what I brought to the table: rational, thoughtful, analytical. We were a good pair.

Within the first few years of our relationship, my wife did a complete character reversal: she became a mouse, hiding in the corner, fearful and anxious about seemingly everything and increasingly conservative and reserved in the bedroom.

I think that happened for a few reasons--she was fired from two jobs, had a car accident that led to significant anxiety and a bad IC who wanted to drug her up rather than unpack her issues (she never went on any drugs and quit the IC in less than a year). More than all that, I think I was the major cause for the change--I'm a dominating personality and she lost the backbone to standup to me. It's not that she wouldn't get her way on anything, it's that she would only get her way on things when I allowed it--and she recognized that. Anytime we had a real conflict, she lost the argument.

And in my defense, we would only have conflict when her position on something was reckless or poorly thought through, but to her, she felt like she was constantly losing every battle and became unhappy and resentful.

So then she meets AP and feels a spark. Working alongside him, she starts to grow a friendship. He's not the smartest guy and she realizes she can win against him--of course that only happens because he wants to fuck her, but she keeps that pushed outside of her mind. Months pass and his sexual intentions are becoming clearer, but it's inline with her developing emotional connection to him. So when he finally kisses her, she's over the moon with joy.

But now she has a problem: she's falling for another man--the relationship is developing--and she thinks her marriage is over, but no one else sees her life that way. She begins her quest to destroy me to her family and her friends on the PTA. She knows an exit from the marriage is coming (which she admitted), so she needs to make sure when she finally pulls the plug everyone else is expecting it: "Oh good, she finally left that awful bastard!"

When AP asks her to go to a hotel with him, she jumps at the chance. She books a room and builds an alibi with me in a week--it's fast and there's no hesitation on her part. She knows the path she's on and she's sprinting down it.

So now it's Jan. 4 and they're in the hotel--they have crazy, carnal, passionate sex for hours. It's world-changing for her. He stops using a condom halfway through and she couldn't care less--she really likes this guy, so what's the big deal? She is tapped into a sexual part of her she hasn't felt since the early days with me. She's fucking, laughing, talking and having a great time all night long.

She wakes up the next day without an ounce of guilt--in fact, only more resentment for me. She goes into overdrive at this point, burning my reputation down with her family and knocking me every chance she can with her friends. She needs to accelerate the plan--the AP isn't showing signs of leaving his wife, but she'll work on that a bit. She sex bombs him thoroughly: BJs in his car and sexting with him anytime he wants. She is trying to win him over. She finally feels like she's in a relationship as herself again.

All her existing problems in her life have just gotten worse--she hates me even more, everyday feels routine, she's spending too much money and drinking heavily. Her life is hellish, but her moments with him are heaven.

Then things start to change a bit--throughout Feb., he's more distant. They go weeks at a time without talking. After the Feb. 8 car meetup, she recognized the emotional connection was fading. This was just a sexual thing now. It sucked for her because she wanted the friendship and emotional connection, but she was enjoying the sex, so whatever, why stop?

She has a great vacation with me in Florida from Feb. 18-23, knowing she has a date with him at the same hotel back home on Feb. 24. She shows up to that meeting feeling guilty for the first time. How can she justify doing this to me after just having a great vacation with me?

With hesitation she powers through with it--and it's better than she can imagine: the best sexual experience of her life. There's no romance or cuddles--he's fucking the hell out of her and she is willingly giving every part of herself to him: handcuffs, anal, bathtubs--he empties five orgasms on her over the course of several hours and she's in ecstasy.

All the guilt is gone and she feels she deserves this outlet from her boring life. She plans to continue this indefinitely, just for the good sex. She saw him a few days later in his car on March 2; they had plans to meet in his car again on March 17; and they were already formulating the next hotel stay sometime in April (with more expected car visits built in still).

However, she still has a problem. She has one man in her life she resents and seemingly largely dislikes, but is the father of her children and she shares a safe, loving home with. She has occasional good times with him, but he's largely an anchor reminding her of her routine existence. She has another man she is playing out a sexual fantasy with, and while it's the bright spot of her life, it's becoming increasingly hollow. She still has no man in her life providing an emotional connection so that she can feel truly comfortable and safe in a relationship with a man.

Affair #2, whether she realizes it or not, was on the horizon. She was still plotting her eventual exit from me, but she had no where to go. Life with me wasn't bad enough to stop seeing the kids everyday and blow everything up, so she needed to wait it out. She'd continue her days with me and have her trysts with AP, but she needed to find someone else. She was still seeking an upgrade from her marriage with me and that is why the badmouthing of me continued even after a future with AP was less likely. The plan was obvious: live with me and the kids, fuck AP, but look for a new Mr. Right and then dump both of us.

Then overnight on March 15 her world changed--I found out about the affair. But she wasn't ready for it. At first she was annoyed her carelessness meant she'd have to give up AP, but she got over that in days because she knew he really didn't matter. The bigger problem is that all her work badmouthing me was reset to zero. All the friends would now see her as a homewrecker and selfish wife. And her work on her family to destroy my image wasn't done--she was making progress with her mom, but her sister and dad still weren't on board with the picture she was painting of me and wouldn't be happy with her having a divorce.

She's now lost at sea, surrounded by people telling her how fucked up she is. Whether she recognizes they're right or not, she doesn't have much of a choice--I'm her best option by a mile right now. So she has to go through the process of "fixing herself." At a minimum, she knows she has things she needs to work through, so what better time to do it than now?

Maybe she fails, and months/years from now comes back to me and says: "I'm so sorry; I tried, but I couldn't do it. I found another AP and he makes me happy."

Maybe she succeeds, and months/years from now she comes back to me and says: "I'm so sorry; I took this long path and improved myself, but now I realize we're not the right match--I need to be with someone that makes me happy. I found another AP and he makes me happy."

Or maybe she's genuinely remorseful and is 100% rededicating herself to me and our marriage and we grow old together.

The obvious problem is that in all three scenarios, her words and actions would be identical. In fact, she likely doesn't know what scenario ultimately happens--she's lost right now. Even if her intentions are option #3, that doesn't mean #1 and #2 can't/won't happen.

So where does that leave me? I'm willing to take substantial risks to my own personal happiness for the benefit of the children; and right now, there is no doubt they are better in this moment if we don't divorce. And if I'm sticking around, I might as well give it my all to fix the relationship with my wife--there's no reason not to do that if we're sharing a home.

Where this becomes difficult for me is if I can identify a car crash coming from my wife on the horizon--meaning she ultimately chooses to leave me down the line--it would be the height of parental malpractice to keep my children in this situation if it's leading to that failure, but in a potentially worse circumstance.

What I'm hoping to identify ASAP is if that's the case and I really don't know how to do it. My wife is committed to convincing me that she loves me and is capable of change--that's her focus right now--so I'm trying to poke holes in a person who is openly telling me they're willing to do all the things I'm asking. How can I recognize if it's a manipulation or authentic? It *feels* authentic, but as written above, there's every reason for it to feel exactly that way and mean something entirely different.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 3:58 PM, Tuesday, May 3rd]

If I have to sum up the above:

"I realize I'm at best her plan B, but I'll take it."

Do you really think that is setting a good example for your kids and that they will be able to maintain healthy relationships with good boundaries with that as an example?