SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Your post today is why soooooo many (I'd say the vast majority) of folks on SI recommend that the couple NOT engage in MC after dday.

Infidelity is a WS problem, not a marriage problem.

And sooo many MCs will do exactly what you describe.

That your WW has decided to stay with this MC does not, IMHO, bode well.

You have not (at least as far as I've seen) described ANYTHING that I would consider abusive.

You have, to some degree, described trauma / trauma response.

or at least an asshole to her

This happens a lot -- a cheater convincing herself/himself that she/he is a "victim" of the BS, thereby justifying the decision to cheat. It's quite likely you are, in her eyes, an asshole. It's sort of part and parcel of the path a cheater goes down to cheat.

One of the elements for R is that the cheater takes the veil off and sees the BH once again as a good a desirable husband. If the WW cannot and/or will not do that, there is no possibility of R.

I've said before on your threads that I sense an undertone of a feeling that you dislike your WW on some level. From some of your comments, I sense you view her as an irresponsible spendthrift. It's quite possible you are right. However, that dynamic creates an untenable marriage. I don't think a marriage can ever function where one spouse feels compelled or entitled to spend at a level that the other spouse feels to be reckless, irresponsible, or unsustainable. The spending spouse will gradually learn more and more how to "sneak spend". The offended spouse will become chronically frustrated, detached, critical. Money is one of the most common causes of divorce.

We only know what you tell us. We have no way of judging for ourselves whether she is in fact irresponsible, or a spendthrift, but assuming she is, her cheating and subsequent attempt to justify it by blaming you for being hostile, is consistent with the entitled, feckless personality of such a person. Why on earth would you walk on eggshells to avoid inciting her ire?

My own feeling is that you should flat-out divorce your wife. Her affair was a gift to you that allows you to walk from this unhappy marriage as the victim. I don't think there is a path for you to ever have a happy, fulfilling relationship with her.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:52 PM, July 12th (Monday)]

Dude, your MC has damaged you!!

You need therapy to deprogram you from your former “MC”.

Seriously…you are a victim of an unqualified therapist.

Seriously, get a lawyer and end this charade.

Your WW is of course playing you, this MC is a pathetic joke that is cheerleading her actions.

Time to start claiming your life back. It is your life, start acting like it.

The only way that you're abusive is if everything you have written here has been complete lies in order to get sympathy. Is that the case?

No. I can't possibly tell you everything and I'm presenting the story where I have the pain, but everything is completely 100% true.

I've said before on your threads that I sense an undertone of a feeling that you dislike your WW on some level.

I wouldn't say I dislike her, I would say we've hurt each other over the years and I have some resentment from the past 9 months.

From some of your comments, I sense you view her as an irresponsible spendthrift

Generally she isn't. We saw eye-to-eye on money for many years until I saw a path to early retirement about 5 years ago. This wasn't everything but it was some of it. We started disagreeing on some big ticket items, and I never discussed it with her. And I know you're going to ready the 2x4, but I acknowledge the difficulty I put her in, because I think she felt I was assigning her the position of reaching her dreams by forcing me to work 10 more years. She never held that position. Then when she suggested going to work at Starbucks, I thought I was being chivalrous by talking her out of a lower paying job, she felt I was being controlling.

Also, just to clarify, she only saw that MC for one more session after I quit. That was many months ago. She was seeing an IC at my request, but does not see her anymore pretty much for the same reason I don't see anyone right now, just a busy time these past weeks.

Seriously, is there anyone out there on your side telling you that your wife cheating on you is some serious fucking bullshit and that you have been a stand up dude throughout this whole shit show?

I've told a few people, and I've had beers a few times over the course of the spring / summer when things opened up. One of my good friends, whose serial cheating wife divorced him, surprised me one evening. He suggested that she shouldn't have told me, and just took it to her grave, since cheating is so common. That surprised me, I thought he was more like me.

I have some in-laws who know (WW told a few in her family), and I'm guessing that WW started the story that I'm an abuser, because nobody ever called me to check in or offer to talk. But I'm just guessing, I never asked her.

And separate - in your case somewhere away from her - for a week and clear your head. She went on a vacation and now it's your turn.

Moot point, in a few weeks she'll be leaving for orientation for like 6 weeks, and then travelling full time. Gone for a few days, home for a few.

Your WW is of course playing you

I don't believe she is, I really don't. Now I believe she is clueless, but she's protecting herself from me somehow, from aggressive language, maybe from shame? I really have no idea.

The comfort break is a perfect example. As a reminder, a comfort break is a hug with comforting words. Her first comfort breaks several months ago were a hug and some words like "you look nice today" or "you work hard for the family" and that went on a few times.

I then said "no the comfort break is about the adultery", and I gave some examples and generally said I like to hear "I'm sorry, and it won't happen again."

Then the comfort break morphed into a hug and a brief "sorry."

Then I again said "I was hoping to hear more than that" and it started falling apart. This is where she threatened D, it was over saying words in a comfort break.

She felt I was criticizing her and controlling her words.

I was frustrated and didn't understand the problem with saying "I'm sorry, and it won't happen again." To me it is as reflexive as saying "love you too" after someone says "I love you." So the words "I'm sorry, and it won't happen again" has turned into some power struggle. So I let it go, albeit with some resentment that still lingers.

As it stands now, the comfort break is a hug and no words. So if I say "I need a comfort break" she will hug, but will say nothing.

Except for last week. She has just a few times given me a very nice comfort break, but not when I've asked. I think I remember them all ("I'm so sorry for cheating on you", "I'm so sorry that I hurt you", "I can't believe what I did, and what I did to you... you are my world", I think that's all of them) I said "Why not more often?" and she says "it has to come from the heart" which leaves me even more confused and hurt.

I told her just this morning that it's always nice to get a good comfort break, but it feels to me a little like her loaning out an umbrella. If it's raining and I want to borrow it that's not available. But other weather, when it isn't as useful, then I can borrow it.

So it isn't like she's playing me, but I really am at a total loss for what is going on in that head of hers.

I find it telling you have to ask for comfort.

What you are really needing is empathy, remorse,and love. And if she felt these things, you wouldn't have to ask for it,and you certainly wouldn't need to schedule it.

What's going on in her mind? I think the members here have been rather insightful about that.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:59 AM, July 13th (Tuesday)]

We saw eye-to-eye on money for many years until I saw a path to early retirement about 5 years ago. This wasn't everything but it was some of it. We started disagreeing on some big ticket items, and I never discussed it with her. And I know you're going to ready the 2x4, but I acknowledge the difficulty I put her in, because I think she felt I was assigning her the position of reaching her dreams by forcing me to work 10 more years.

I think you realize that retiring in one's 50's is rather unusual except for the truly wealthy. To make it work, people of ordinary middle class or upper middle class income must live with a very tight belt. For a married couple, it only works if you have a very express agreement on the specific details of how you will accomplish this, both of you striving to push that rock up that steep hill.

Without that, the expectation is unrealistic.

Have you heard talk of the concept of the "unspoken contract", where one spouse has a privately-held desire or goal and works hard, investing time and affection, hoping the other spouse may join in that goal? And is then frustrated when it doesn't happen? My sense is that this is you.

Have you heard talk of the concept of the "unspoken contract"

Not explicitly but I believe that's 100% of what was going on. To make amends for how I handled things, I have changed my position and she's been doing some spending.

But resolving this is marriage related, and I don't feel ready to address it on any deeper level. And it is a moot point anyway, because she is going back to work to earn a salary herself, and what she said is very sweet, that she doesn't feel right asking me to work for 10 more years so she can buy a new SUV and a boat and jetskis and whatever else.

I personally find it interesting that she has firm plans for where that money is going to go. I wasn't consulted or asked my opinion. It seems to me she's doing exactly what I was doing that hurt her so badly. Granted this is early and she's just talking right now, but still... interesting. That is a topic for another discussion way down the line after we are firmly in R.

HCSDI - the point I've been making for weeks now is that YOU are doing ALLLLLLLL the 'making amends'.... SHE is the one who cheated. SHE should be crawling up her own ass to make amends to YOU and thus far has not done that AT ALL.

Fine, you were an ass sometimes in your marriage. Who the fuck hasn't been at some point?????? Nothing you did IMHO crosses the line into 'abuse' and I have been in mentally and emotionally abusive situations so I know what that is like.

She has you twisted into believing that you owe her, and that reeks of her overblown sense of entitlement. As does the fact that she's going back to work involving 6 weeks of being away and in hotels with random strangers, which is a HUGE boundary violation, and she signed on for that with NO thought or empathy for her husband.

You are having to beg her for 'comfort breaks' and affection, you are having to put up and shut up with whatever she wants and needs, and dude DUDE - that is NOT okay when SHE is the one who cheated on YOU!

She is not even remotely R material at this stage IMHO.

This is hopeless. You clearly have no intention of following any advice you've been given. You are only interested in hand wringing and navel gazing.

You simply want to wallow in your own misery. It is pretty obvious why you're WW has lost all respect for you.

Seriously, with 90% of the posters telling you basically the same thing, which you won't even acknowledge, exactly what would it take for you to take some meaningful ACTION?

It is pretty obvious why you're WW has lost all respect for you.

*your

Ditto to what Ellie said. x 1,000

HowCouldSheDoIt,

I'm really sorry for what you are going through. (Oh no, did I end a sentence in a preposition?!)

Honestly, you sound like you are experiencing a lot of pain. People are trying to give you advice and help you. They do care about you here.

It is pretty obvious why you're WW has lost all respect for you.

*your

This is one of the most passive aggressive things I've seen on the internet lately. I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but I bet it's really frustrating some others here. Actually I'm smiling at the silliness.

I think you realize that retiring in one's 50's is rather unusual except for the truly wealthy.

I suppose it depends on how you define truly wealthy but I personally know three people who are retired in their 50's and I would consider them like myself, upper middle class.

It also depends on how you define retire, there is a definition where you basically work a low stress job you enjoy mostly for benefits and some salary. You no longer pursue advancement, you enjoy your work and focus on other parts of your life. If you have enough you can quit at 59.5, or continue until medicare kicks in at 65.

Situations like that are very available to us in our 50's. Obviously you need to be positioned for it but with some planning it is certainly doable.

Are you just using SI to vent? It's ok if you are, but if you are, you should let us know. You've been given great advice,but you've taken none of it. So if you are just here to vent, let us know, so we can move on to giving advice to those who ARE asking for it,and we will just listen when you vent.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:13 AM, July 13th (Tuesday)]

humantrampoline:

Yes, perhaps a little passive aggressive but it makes me smile too.

If it isn't obvious, I'm using this forum to clarify my thinking, get validation, perspective, and vent/cope while I give things time to decide when/whether to D or not. Following advice isn't my main objective.

I can't write every detail, I can't share all the aspects of my life (getting a new boss, stress over work changes, mom broke her hip and working with my siblings on a care plan, I've already written about DD moving, etc.) so advice is always good but that's only part of why I post. Some people see my posts as having no direction, no application, and lack of progress and that's frustrating for them. FWIW I have always struggled with hard type-A people and I predict that is who I was replying to. IRL I generally would not bring this situation to them.

If you read anything I write you'll notice I never insult or put down. I would never give a snarky reply unless it was specifically directed at me. It is rare for me to be disrespectful. Ultimately I don't mind the 2x4's at all, they are good reminders that I ultimately have control over my situation. I usually don't even reply.

I felt the spirit of that reply was frustration, and being helpful was secondary. I figure if you're a big enough man to sling a 2x4 in such a manner like I responded to, a little snark shouldn't bother you.

I try not to be too harsh on anyone here.

We all have clarity when looking at someone else's story. Our own seems special and nuanced. This is sort of true, and we each know ourselves, our spouse, and our situation better than internet strangers.

We all know the struggle to get through infidelity. We know it is fraught with discouragement, disappointment, and non-linear progress.

I think we should always encourage people to post, and not beat them up for finding their own way. I think almost all of us have to suffer it first hand to believe all the lessons others are trying to teach us on this board.

HCSDI, consider why so many people aren’t validating you on this being your fault. Perhaps they have a point?

Separately, criticizing people’s grammar when they’re trying to help you doesn’t leave a very positive impression.

You are being a masochist and it is disturbing to the vast majority of us here on SI.

First I can't rule out that I might be an asshole, or at least an asshole to her. I don't know how much I've shared but I've been on my heels a bit since the first MC. This is the one that thought I was an abuser. My perspective was that since the MC was a victim of spousal abuse, she transferred all that anger out on me in session. We used to start each session with the MC asking WW if I had been abusive since last session. Here is an example that WW brought up, but never confronted me on (and keep in mind this was after I had come up with a safe word she was to use if she was feeling abused):

WW brought up moving, new change of scenery, I told her "I feel exploited that you go off and have fling sex, and then want to buy a house. You know what? I'm going to quit my job on Monday. Good luck getting a mortgage." Childish? Yes. Abuse? I didn't think so. However, MC told me "That's it. If I hear about one more outburst I'm going to tell WW to kick you out and do a separation." This was maybe 10 weeks after d-day? I was so angry and hurt, I realized that I wasn't talking respectfully, but I didn't feel that I was given much allowance in the emotions from the adultery. But I shifted, no raised voice, no demands, calm requests.

This in NO WAY abusive on your part. No way. I'm not sure how the MC could have allowed this to stand.

And your WW twisted the entire MC experience into one grand gaslighting con job.

Yes, she played you right there. Can't you see that? She's played you dozens of times. She's probably been playing you the entire marriage. Playing you like a fiddle.

STOP any form of MC. How many times do you need to hear this from us? Just STOP IT.

I have some in-laws who know (WW told a few in her family), and I'm guessing that WW started the story that I'm an abuser, because nobody ever called me to check in or offer to talk. But I'm just guessing, I never asked her.

You're allowing this?! One of the first pieces of advice for a newly betrayed spouse is to EXPOSE to your WW's family to stop her from spreading a BS narrative. Have you done this? And why the hell not? So passive here, you let HER tell your in-laws? You suspect she told them a story? I have news for you: SHE DID!

I don't believe she is [PLAYING ME] I really don't. Now I believe she is clueless, but she's protecting herself from me somehow, from aggressive language, maybe from shame? I really have no idea.

Yes, she is playing you. Wake up. Come on, man, knock it off with the Mr. Nice Guy routine. You're not impressing anyone here with it.

And the comfort breaks, oy ve. Where did this come from? Whose idea was this? Such artificial and eye-rolling therapy-driven "I'm ok, you're ok" forced playacting. Yes, if I were her I would feel frustrated with this nonsense too because SHE DOESN'T FEEL IT authentically.

When will you see who she really is?

I'm not trying to insult you or put you down. I'm trying to get you to see reality here.

Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy?

That has been asked several times here on this thread now.

Have you?

And yes, you are acting passive aggressively, and that is a classic hallmark of Mr. Nice Guy syndrome. Here's an example:

I told WW that my journey on forgiveness has several steps.

Really, you told her this? And how did that go? Blank look, deer in the headlights, space alien pinwheels for eyes from your WW? Looking down and mumbling something half-hearted? Why did you need to TELL her anything?

And yes, your WW has lost respect for you. I don't say you deserve it. Your WW is a real basket case that many psychiatrists would have a field day with. But she's lost respect for you, and you've allowed it and even encouraged it with your behavior.

Here's the thing: You don't need HER respect. What you need is to start respecting yourself.

She doesn't deserve you. She doesn't deserve to be in a position to deny or grant respect to YOU.

Get it?

There is a scientifically documented thing known as "the doormat effect" Research shows that wayward spouses seem to amp up the aggression and cruelty the more passive and apologetic and "pick me" the betrayed spouse behaves. The more the BS stands up on their own two feet, says ENOUGH and does a hard 180, the more a WS starts to desperately plead. You have done everything to encourage the doormat effect.

STOP BEING A DOORMAT.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:07 PM, July 13th (Tuesday)]