SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Often, we hear from BS's about how infidelity has zero bearing in proceedings.

I am glad to see the mediator recognizes an untenable situation when she sees one.

Good job, brother. Keep pushing.

A short comment on one of your postings here:

I have no reason to believe that she still doesn't love him. She has not said she hates him.

Love, hate, and whatnot, are still emotions. I think what you should be looking for is a stat of indifference. No emotions for her AP. Her AP could be like a pebble on the road that is kicked aside without a backward glance.

For her to hate, that will show investment of her thoughts and emotions. This would logically mean that she still has felling for her AP.

If your WW is indifferent to her AP, she would not care, e.g. he could be made homeless, she would not bat an eyelid, nor have a thought of 'I hope he is okay'.

Indifference is the goal.

Basically the mediator was like ‘it’s standard to pay out 1/2 on equity’, she said it was highly unusual that I would even offer the ‘ill wave equity to live with my parents’. She’s advised my wife to think about it.

Bud, get your half. That’s fair. You’ll regret it later if you don’t.

Finances are important!!!!!!!!

You don’t need her permission where you live.

I guarantee you it will be impossible to put restrictions that are enforceable on her like introducing your kids to other men, etc.

I’m going to reply to some of the comments later, but I just wanted to say this happened:

After getting done with the mediation I think we were both emotionally drained. She wanted to talk, I probably shouldn’t have. I was spent. She was saying that she wished she was on my timeline & that I haven’t seen the progress she’s made, she feels like a failure & fucked everything up. She was crying.

I was emotional too. I didn’t ask about her progress, because, well, why? I mean, if it’s true, good for her or whatever. I said that I couldn’t live like this, that I didn’t want to be paranoid & separation was for the best because I didn’t want to hate her. I also said I didn’t want to do lawyers because I didn’t want to screw her over and cost us both a fortune.

I just needed to get out and heal. Something like that anyway. I remember saying something about not wanting to monitor her or live my life being paranoid & resenting her and that’s what’s already happening it’s just going to get worse so we need to divorce.

I know I didn’t owe her an explanation- infidelity is enough. I was just worn out.

It’s getting real now.

From what you’ve posted previously she’s in self preservation mode.

The tears were for her not you.

Right. The tears were for her and the effect on her.

Hope it moves quickly for you, TheLostOne, before buyers remorse sets in.

I just feel beat down today. Yesterday was tough. I'm worried about where I'm going to live. I don't think she's going to be able to come up with the equity. I was looking forward to my parents house for more than just the financial security, if I'm being honest. I feel like they'd emotionally support me too. I think we might be at an impasse that only lawyers can solve.

KingofNothing

Best of luck today. A lot of people are cheering for you.

Thanks!

Stevesn

I wish you well and send you strength.

Just remember what you can and cannot live with.

Thanks and exactly.

goalong

As she has been telling you all the time (without justifying it) after DDay, there is a good chance she will get in to a crying fit during mediation and tell all present that she does not want to end the marriage (and probably she will also say you are not very keen on it) .

She cried several times before, during, and after mediation. She did say that she didn't want to end the marriage during mediation. She said that she'd been working on it. I don't recall exactly what I said but it was essentially that I couldn't continue as it was and did not want to continue the marriage.

Newlifeisgreat

Great job!!!

You should be proud of yourself!!!!

Stay strong and keep moving forward

Thanks but all I'm thinking about is the impasse. My wife has 'homework' - she has to look up refinancing and loans and something to do with her health insurance. The health insurance isn't a huge deal. As my wife moves like molasses this has me worried. The mediator already said that she wouldn't be able to do anything until after the first two weeks of March, so it's like my timeline is extended and extended.

farsidejunky

Often, we hear from BS's about how infidelity has zero bearing in proceedings.

I am glad to see the mediator recognizes an untenable situation when she sees one.

Good job, brother. Keep pushing.

Yes, so am I. Infidelity WOULD have no bearings if we agreed on everything. We don't and my wife has, in my opinion, ridiculous notions as to what is 'acceptable'. The mediator has been divorced twice, btw, once because of infidelity (on her husband's part).

RocketRaccoon

Love, hate, and whatnot, are still emotions. I think what you should be looking for is a stat of indifference. No emotions for her AP. Her AP could be like a pebble on the road that is kicked aside without a backward glance.

For her to hate, that will show investment of her thoughts and emotions. This would logically mean that she still has felling for her AP.

If your WW is indifferent to her AP, she would not care, e.g. he could be made homeless, she would not bat an eyelid, nor have a thought of 'I hope he is okay'.

Indifference is the goal.

That's all fine, but even if she was indifferent - how can I live with what's happened? What I will HAVE to do? I just don't see it. I don't see a viable outcome in staying with her.

I mean, if you are talking about her own growth and development, sure I hope the best for her so she doesn't do this to her future partners.

Marz

Bud, get your half. That’s fair. You’ll regret it later if you don’t.

Finances are important!!!!!!!!

You don’t need her permission where you live.

I guarantee you it will be impossible to put restrictions that are enforceable on her like introducing your kids to other men, etc.

I get what you are saying, but here's the thing - she's barely going to be able to afford the house on her own. She might not even get an equity line of credit for that much. So we'd have to sell the house - which means everything would pretty much be gobbled up in fees and shit. It would also mean that the kids would have to switch schools - which is something I don't want to happen.

That's why I'm willing to let what's fair go.

As it is that doesn't look like it's going to be on the table anyway, she's going to want to pay me out.

Marz

It’s getting real now.

From what you’ve posted previously she’s in self preservation mode.

The tears were for her not you.

Yeah - regret, fear, depression, etc.

steadychevy

Right. The tears were for her and the effect on her.

Hope it moves quickly for you, TheLostOne, before buyers remorse sets in.

I hope it moves quickly too - but I'm not sure what you are referring to with regard to buyer's remorse.

She doesn't get to tell you, where you can live. A divorce means she no longer gets a say in your life. As long as the home is clean, and your children have their own rooms, and are taken care of, that's all the courts will care about.

If you need to move in with your parents, for finances and support, then that's what you do. If she doesn't like it, that's on her.

HellFire

She doesn't get to tell you, where you can live. A divorce means she no longer gets a say in your life. As long as the home is clean, and your children have their own rooms, and are taken care of, that's all the courts will care about.

If you need to move in with your parents, for finances and support, then that's what you do. If she doesn't like it, that's on her.

Ultimately she doesn't - but this is mediation. We have to agree, basically. I'm not sure how things are going to shake out - I may have to go the lawyer route.

Divorce is a gut-wrenching and life-upheaving experience, even in the best of circumstances. Add infidelity into the mix, and it's a total train wreck. Pain, trauma, loss on the side of the BH. Guilt, self-loathing, and loss on the side of the WW.

My observation is that mediation rarely works for divorces that follow infidelity. The mind fuckery that leads a wayward spouse to cheat is also the same mind fuckery that prevents them from being objective and fair to their betrayed spouse in mediation.

The adversarial "lawyer" divorce mechanism exists for a reason: most divorcing couples include at least one partner who cannot be reasonable.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:10 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]

So far you're using the cost of going to court as a motivator for her to mediate.

Question for mediator or your attorney: If you go to court, do courts in Virginia approve a non-smoking clause; AND do they have a solid history of enforcing it??

IMO, her emotions are out of control and overflowing onto specific requirements like non-smoking.

Mediation is the best solution for both of you.

Perhaps you can reduce her emotional resistence and motivate her to drop the non-smoking clause by offering her a carrot for cooperating.

Consider saying something like: although D is necessary for you to heal and obtain closure, once the D is final you'd be willing to consider reconciling after she rebuilds your trust.

Butforthegrace

Divorce is a gut-wrenching and life-upheaving experience, even in the best of circumstances. Add infidelity into the mix, and it's a total train wreck. Pain, trauma, loss on the side of the BH. Guilt, self-loathing, and loss on the side of the WW.

Yup, true. I will say this, she did admit, while in mediation, that our marriage was actually good when she started cheating. I was a little surprised by that. That's something she said to me in the past but has 'selectively forgotten' from time to time since then. So I was surprised when she just up and said that to the mediator.

My observation is that mediation rarely works for divorces that follow infidelity. The mind fuckery that leads a wayward spouse to cheat is also the same mind fuckery that prevents them from being objective and fair to their betrayed spouse in mediation.

The adversarial "lawyer" divorce mechanism exists for a reason: most divorcing couples include at least one partner who cannot be reasonable.

Robert22205https

So far you're using the cost of going to court as a motivator for her to mediate.

Question for mediator or your attorney: If you go to court, do courts in Virginia approve a non-smoking clause; AND do they have a solid history of enforcing it??

The mediator brought this up - she basically said it could go either way with a judge. It totally depends on the circumstances.

IMO, her emotions are out of control and overflowing onto specific requirements like non-smoking.

Mediation is the best solution for both of you.

That's what I think.

Perhaps you can reduce her emotional resistence and motivate her to drop the non-smoking clause by offering her a carrot for cooperating.

Consider saying something like: although D is necessary for you to heal and obtain closure, once the D is final you'd be willing to consider reconciling after she rebuilds your trust.

That's interesting. I'm going to need to have a talk with her anyway, I might say something like this I guess. I don't know if I can get 'reconciling' out of my mouth even if it's on the end of the D being final.

She cried several times before, during, and after mediation. She did say that she didn't want to end the marriage during mediation. She said that she'd been working on it. I don't recall exactly what I said but it was essentially that I couldn't continue as it was and did not want to continue the marriage

Her work is like a slow moving train never heading to the destination

First of all she is not considering the cheating as something that is severe enough to end the marriage.

She even required you to satisfy certain conditions to fully get back to marriage.

She met POS despite your objections to end it.

Then several times she "ended" it and you have no clue whether it ended or not.

She never bothered to show you proof that she has ended it.

I think she never wrote a NC as you wanted.

There has been no spontaneous remorse or distress after Dday.

And many more.

All this slow moving train does is keep you in a emotionally suffering state.

goalong

Her work is like a slow moving train never heading to the destination

It's funny because she has said that I'm just 'steamrolling ahead' several times now.

First of all she is not considering the cheating as something that is severe enough to end the marriage.

She even required you to satisfy certain conditions to fully get back to marriage.

Yup. I don't think she truly believes that the initial contact was problematic and that emotional affairs are real things - she gives lip service to it though, but that's it.

She met POS despite your objections to end it.

Supposedly once, to end it face to face with him - however I have no actual idea. She kept in 'Face Time' contact with him throughout.

Then several times she "ended" it and you have no clue whether it ended or not.

Yup. He certainly doesn't think it's ended with his 'stupid' display of flowers.

She never bothered to show you proof that she has ended it.

I think she never wrote a NC as you wanted.

Nope, no proof and even worse - when I asked her to do things for my safety (ex. let me see your phone, emails, etc) she made up some pretty damn good excuses. 'I have his number memorized, if I wanted to get in contact with him, I could, so doing those things is pointless'. Ah, well, I guess you're correct wife - there's literally no way I can trust you.

There has been no spontaneous remorse or distress after Dday.

And many more.

All this slow moving train does is keep you in a emotionally suffering state.

The time thing is funny to me. It seems like everything is going so goddamn slowly, yet she's saying that it's going at light speed. I guess if you are committed to cake eating anything that threatens that will seem 'swift'.

Yup. He certainly doesn't think it's ended with his 'stupid' display of flowers.

That really says it all, doesn't it? Sure, OM could be that special brand of crazy to send flowers to his married love interest after she cut him off but chances are that's not what happened. Chances are he knows a D is happening and things haven't ended between them. And they were probably a lot deeper than she will ever admit to given he got her a Valentine's Day gift. Not an appropriate move for "just friends" with a strained "friendship".

I don't think she's really changing at all because the OM is still in the picture. She hasn't been truthful about that and probably hasn't been truthful about how far the A went. I mean seriously, he sent her flowers 5 days ago and she expects you to believe she cut him off? How dumb does she think you are? It sounds like she regrets that you're getting a D and wants to continue to cake eat for as long as possible.

“You love and care for and desire the OM more than you do me. Until that is no longer the case and you fully hate him and what he’s helped you do to our Marriage and Family as much as I do, then I have no other path than to move on and heal alone on my own. I feel no remorse for what you have done to me and for what you have destroyed, therefore there is nothing here for me anymore. “

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:34 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)]

nekonamida

That really says it all, doesn't it? Sure, OM could be that special brand of crazy to send flowers to his married love interest after she cut him off but chances are that's not what happened. Chances are he knows a D is happening and things haven't ended between them. And they were probably a lot deeper than she will ever admit to given he got her a Valentine's Day gift. Not an appropriate move for "just friends" with a strained "friendship".

Right. Either he's completely stupid, in which case, what the fuck does that say about her? OR he's doing it to be intentionally disrespectful because he figures at this point that she's all talk anyway (if she even said anything about breaking it off with him).

I don't think she's really changing at all because the OM is still in the picture. She hasn't been truthful about that and probably hasn't been truthful about how far the A went. I mean seriously, he sent her flowers 5 days ago and she expects you to believe she cut him off? How dumb does she think you are? It sounds like she regrets that you're getting a D and wants to continue to cake eat for as long as possible.

I don't think so either. Actually I did forget to mention when I brought that up to the mediator her first response was something like 'I didn't do that what did you expect me to do?' and I said get a restraining order. That's when the mediator shot in with the 'that was stupid' bit.

It's all bullshit. Let's say she did actually 'end it' for good 'this time', it's five days (or whatever) before mediation. What, now you've gotten serious? Not after I've been hurting and in pain for a month and a half? Clearly whatever it is that's put a bug up her ass has nothing to do with me (I mean other than my getting the divorce ball rolling).

Stevesn

“You love and care for and desire the OM more than you do me. Until that is no longer the case and you fully hate him and what he’s helped you do to our Marriage and Family as much as I do, then I have no other path than to move on and heal alone on my own. I feel no remorse for what you have done to me and for what you have destroyed, therefore there is nothing here for me anymore. “

This is still my greatest failing - too much talking. I was just so worn out. I do like the 'I feel no remorse for what you have done to me and for what you have destroyed' that's good that's what I feel. It's 'remorse' (regret?) for what she's losing for how it impacts her.

In other news, I was walking around Costco today looking at their furniture thinking about what sort of place I want to eventually get. I'll probably have to build things up slowly, but we'll see. I'm still extremely pissed about her stance on my parent's place. I feel like it has more to do with her fears on how they are going to support me, be there for the kids, and all that then it does with his smoking. My mom did mention that he was thinking about switching to vaping - he's on board with change.

I just feel like I'm continually being punished for her shitty actions. I know I'll get through this and all, it's just a matter of when and how much.

I agree with the recommendation that you negotiate being able to keep the kids at your parents place. Maybe not promise reconciliation someday if she gets her head out of her as like was suggested, as that is very subjective. But how about a little more money or slightly better terms for her if she agrees to let you stay there for two years and include a thorough cleaning of the house and filtration systems and a promise from your dad to smoke outside.

I feel like I only ever chime in on the ancillary things, but oh well.

There's a hand filter your parent can get if they switch to vaping that will kill any of the remaining contaminants they may put out into the air. Look up something similar to vape buddy or philter pocket.

I'm still extremely pissed about her stance on my parent's place. I feel like it has more to do with her fears on how they are going to support me, be there for the kids, and all that then it does with his smoking. My mom did mention that he was thinking about switching to vaping - he's on board with change.

I went to vaping about six years ago. It's pretty darn easy if you're committed to actually giving up tobacco cigarettes. That first couple of weeks, you do feel like you're missing something, like there's something else in your cigarette which feels addictive. But if you can tough it out and stick to the vape mod for just the first few days, it fades quickly. Then, after a couple of weeks, you notice that your smoker's cough has disappeared and the wheezing in your lungs is gone, like magic really. Your clothes don't stink, and you're not smoking outside in the winter time.

It does take a little time to get used to how the mods work and when to change the coils. At first, when your lungs are still so tender after being a full time smoker, the pen mods are best because they don't create quite as much vapor. It's best to buy at least two so one can always be charged. Light flavored fruits are my favorite. Tobacco flavors are typically inaccurate, but might be worth trying. Heavily sweetened candy or dessert flavors burn out coils fast, so you always want extra coils on hand. Once your lungs have healed a bit from the tobacco smoking, you can move to a box mod and just keep an extra set of batteries and a charger. As always, extra coils on hand.

If your parents are open to vaping instead, there's quite a bit which could be beneficial for them aside from helping you out. Ejuices come in various levels of nicotine exposure. You can dial it down to 0mg and quit altogether in time.

Feel free to PM me with any questions.

ETA: Bear in mind that the online stores are about 50% cheaper than brick and mortar stores.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 1:43 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]