SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

She has choices. She isn't going to be strapped down,against her will. She can say no.

He told her the divorce would happen, then he would consider reconciliation.

I don't really see the point of divorcing, if you are just going to try to reconcile afterwards. But that's what OP wanted. HE told her she still had to do the work,etc. And she agreed to his terms.

With her history of lying, IF he does attempt reconciliation, at any point, he needs to know the truth. IMO.

Interesting concept - neurotic pride - thanks for the explanation Sisoon .

MR Fib married a cheater its pretty safe to assume she is a also a massive liar and has two eyes attached to her face.

The real question is what is her value to him now , cheating lying skullduggery aside what does she has to offer ?

And this is where the fire and brimstone crowd ( myself included) has a big blind spot because most of us simply cant imagine any reason a cheater would still be worthy of love or a second chance .

But hey MrF , if your wife still has tremendous value to you , dont let my neurotic pride run your life . While learning how to give up your sense of who you are seems like a dicey strategy to me but i am willing to believe the R veterans if they say its an essential first step

Interestingly enough the idea reminds me of this story about muslim mystics and how they believe you can either take the boat to the destination or take all your baggage and let the boat sink but you cant do both . Maybe nuerotic pride is - baggage ?

Yes, if pride is driving her, Horney probably would call it 'neurotic pride.' I'm good with that.

It's not only her cheating but especially her lies.

The only way I can understand getting to 'she's a damsel in distress and the BS is an abuser' from 'the BS might be operating out of neurotic pride' is for 'neurotic pride' to trigger a defense, probably against an internally generated charge of neurotic pride

Some more misandrist gaslighting and mind fuckery. Only it doesn't work on me. The only way I can understand defending a misadrist poster claiming the male BS triggered the incessant lying of a female neurotic wayward spouse because he's a burn the witch mysogynist is being neurotic and misandrist onself while using mental projection based on one's own neurotic pride being triggered by the truth and blaiming it on others calling this BS out.

But I understand that her neurotic pride preventing him from healing, that does not count. In fact, he triggered it. Why? Probably because to that misandrist poster, he's not really prevented more from healing and being more abused by his wife's neurotic pride and incessant lies but rather that's his shallow mysogynistic and chauvinistic burn the witch upbringing that's causing this. Yeah,that's sure not the common damsel in distress BS and misandry. And I am queen Elizabeth of England

I don't care if the OP reconciles or divorces. It's his life and no two people are the same. I firmly believe in the golden rule: to each their own. I also firmly believe the hypocrites and men haters should be called out. Their misandry should not be the reason why he may chose to leave or stay. Otherwise, there are a lot of things I agree with you, especially looking deep down one's own motivation. This shouldn't be encouraged with misandrist statements like these of this specific poster.

[This message edited by QuitOrNotToQuit at 6:24 AM, March 18th (Thursday)]

T/J -

So ... comments about a dysfunction that could operate in any BS is attacked as blaming the BS.

And a comment about all BSes is considered to be misandry, even though the language of the comment applies to BSes of all genders.

Gently, I think these comments about neurotic pride are being misinterpreted by some responders, and misinterpreted in ways that add to the readers' pain. But - no misinterpreting, no added pain.

Look: it's essential for recovery to understand what one's brain is doing. It's very easy for one's brain to take one in directions that add pain to one's life. At the same time, it's eminently possible to notice one's own dysfunction and get back on a healing path.

WRT infidelity, the BS has to heal the BS. The WS can't do it. A BS who thinks their WS can or will heal them will wait forever.

It takes work to heal. Think active, not passive. The BS needs to process the anger, grief, fear, and shame out of their body to heal - and that means the BS needs to resolve any issues that stand in the way of processing the anger, grief, fear, and shame out of their bodies.

Neurotic pride is just one of the issues that keep a BS in pain.

Above all, remember that the BS is the only one who can heal the BS. Anyone who expects the WS to heal the BS will wait forever.

End T/J

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:53 AM, March 18th (Thursday)]

No, she isn't referring to ANY SPOUSE.

She is reffering to a man with anti male specic allegation that are never referred to women and therefore she's referring to all men.

We know exactly who those women are.

And, no, she hasn't referred to ANY GENDER and no that's not a gender neutral language and allegation referred neither to women in general nor especially betrayed women in particular.

Women never referred in those terms nor they are asked to do so

Unfortunately, you continue the manipulation and, gently, think we're all stupid and can't through those mind games

That's her first statement:

You've got a bit of a "burn the witch" drama going on with lots of pressure to make sure your cheater gets hers.

This charge and fallse allegation of mysogyny according the misandrist leads to blaming him and others for her lies pointing to him being abusive and controlling here:

Now, that's off the table because your WW lied. But what did you really think was going to happen when you applied the kind of pressure on her that you did?

And then describing her below as victim and damsel in distress :

It's not surprising that she withheld the details. It would actually have been MORE surprising if she hadn't.

And at the end gaslighting through mental projecting hoping he'll take the bait and internalize the misandry:

If your pride is of more value to you than the woman you claimed to love, she's better off without you. 

She made those four statements within two small pargraphs. It's not a mistake it's her worldview. Let's keep it simple. Her agenda is misandry. Her goal is to attack his sense of masculinity. In my opinion, possibly to turn him into a honorary woman. It begins with his wife and the marriage is the best re-education camp. Infidelity is the best environment

[This message edited by QuitOrNotToQuit at 12:43 PM, March 18th (Thursday)]

No, I won't bow to that misandry, no I won't shup up, I will, in fact, speak up every time I'll hear this. And this will be my healing. Speaking up against those trying to turn me into a honorary woma, tell me I have to forgive because she's remorseful, because if she cheated I also contributed to this and if I won't then I'm broken and evil. And I will help other men not to intetnalize this self hate no matter the path they chose. The pain that's been added is that of the anti male shaming tactics and the attempt to silence those who tell this truth

[This message edited by QuitOrNotToQuit at 12:02 PM, March 18th (Thursday)]

The real question is what is her value to him now , cheating lying skullduggery aside what does she has to offer ?

Up until her A, I would say that my W was the best thing that ever happened to me, honestly. That's why this hurt so much, she was the last person I expected this kind of betrayal from. That's why it took me so long to kick this can of worms open, I didn't believe she would cheat on me, ever. So I was gaslighting myself in a way. I belive many BS does.

But she has many great qualities, no doubt. There is a reason I married her all these years ago. She stood by me through thick and thin, there were times when I was not doing very well careerwise, and she supported us all. She never let me down. She has a lot to offer, even now. I know I am not the best character judge after what happened, but as I said before, now I see the girl I married and not that person from last summer. That's why it's so hard to say I am done, that's the reason I am still here after almost 6 months going back and forth. There were times when I said to myself things would be for the best if she were not remorseful, if she left me for her AP, weren't sorry. I know it sound stupid, but that's how I felt at times. But she's still here, she didn't give up and now I feel like dick because I am not sure I have it in me to R. Doesn't that sound pathetic? A little bit.

She apologized again last night (and does so everyday) for all the lies and dishonesty. She contacted the place we choosed to do the poly again yesterday to see where we stand, again made herself clear that she will go through with the poly no matter if I decide to offer her a future together or not.

We talked a bit about what is being said during her IC sessions and she asked me if I would be willing to join her once or twice. I am not sure, maybe I will. I am starting my own IC next week and I am looking forward to it.I would never in a million years let something like this out of my mouth a year back.

Her sister is taking girls for a weekend, and we plan to do some paperwork for the divorce. It's amazing, getting married is so easy. Getting divorced is like that scene from The Twelve Tasks of Asterix when they need that permit. Had no idea this will turn into such a nightmare. But here we are.

And please, try to keep from any kinds of personal attacks. I don't feel it helps anybody

This same poster told another BS (this time a woman) just the other day:

"You really did deserve better than you got".

"You really are enough, and better than the MAN who can't/won't appreciate you deserves".

"It's sad for him that he couldn't appreciate what he had, but you deserve better".

Given the situation Great advice.

Would seem to me that these same type of comments could have been conveyed to MrF (but he's a man).

Instead the man gets "his pride is of more value to you than the woman you claim to love, SHE'S BETTER OFF WITHOUT YOU".

Did MrF "deserve" any of this?

Didn't he "deserve better than he got"?

Isn't it sad that MrF "wasn't enough" and "better than a woman who can't/won't appreciate you deserves".

I think many of us can see RIGHT through this poster!!

Mr. F, I remember thinking how if my xWH died it would have been 'easier' than having him cheat on me. But watching people lose their spouses I believe it would still have been horrible. Although, once I understood that grieving the loss of the marriage was ok because it was still a loss to me, it helped me get through that dark period. (But that's a different subject for a different day).

Same with your STBXW, had she not been remorseful it "might" have been easier, but then again it might have brought on a whole other set of emotions that tear apart your self-confidence and make you doubt your self-worth. Either way, it all just sucks!

All others, please stop with the bantering on this thread. Start a new one somewhere else but let's keep to why we are here...to help Mr. F, not ourselves!

[This message edited by newlife03 at 1:27 PM, March 18th (Thursday)]

This same poster told another BS (this time a woman) just the other day:

"You really did deserve better than you got".

"You really are enough, and better than the MAN who can't/won't appreciate you deserves".

"It's sad for him that he couldn't appreciate what he had, but you deserve better".

Given the situation Great advice.

Would seem to me that these same type of comments could have been conveyed to MrF (but he's a man).

Instead the man gets "his pride is of more value to you than the woman you claim to love, SHE'S BETTER OFF WITHOUT YOU".

Did MrF "deserve" any of this?

Didn't he "deserve better than he got"?

Isn't it sad that MrF "wasn't enough" and "better than a woman who can't/won't appreciate you deserves".

I think many of us can see RIGHT through this poster!!

Not really surprised.

Those double standards and bigotry is everywhere.

I know it sound stupid

now I feel like dick because I am not sure I have it in me to R. Doesn't that sound pathetic? A little bit.

This shit is not easy...everyone has their own breaking point...and there is no right or wrong answer. Do what's best for you.

I think you handled this very well. I wish I had the same will and determination as you early in my discovery days. I think I would be in a better position today (I'm very close to a final divorce agreement).

You've gotten some good advice here no matter what you decide. For R, you know what should happen for it to be successful.

I wish you the best. Like everyone here, I hope you find peace soon.

We talked a bit about what is being said during her IC sessions and she asked me if I would be willing to join her once or twice. I am not sure, maybe I will. I am starting my own IC next week and I am looking forward to it.I would never in a million years let something like this out of my mouth a year back.

It would likely be helpful for her if you did. Talk to your IC about it and get their thoughts. It should also give you more insight as to where she's at in her healing and what her thought processes are right now. Even without R you want her healed. You're going to need to co-parent for quite some time so anything that will help you understand her will be a benefit.

[This message edited by grubs at 2:29 PM, March 18th (Thursday)]

Hang in there MrF!!!

Whatever you decide to do the people here at SI will support you.

Stop letting her apologize.

Seriously...stop being so accepting of her conversation. It is not an apology...it is a lie and you know it is a lie because you know they had sex and she is still dishonest about it.

Every apology should be met with a direct response of "Bullshit, you are lying to me right now about the sex, so I know you aren't sorry so save it for someone who doesn't know you". Follow it up with "you disrespect the marriage you claim to want to save when you continue to lie"...and walk off.

If you let her continue to lie to you, you will see lies as truth. It will beat you down.

Parts of this discussion are beginning to remind me of the "Adultery as Abuse" thread that launched a thousand ships.

Adultery is abuse. Full stop. Refusing to put up with abuse is not "pride."

It is common sense self preservation.

We do no favors to men or women if we tell them to put up with abuse and wait around for an abuser to "get it."

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:48 PM, March 18th (Thursday)]

Up until her A, I would say that my W was the best thing that ever happened to me, honestly. That's why this hurt so much, she was the last person I expected this kind of betrayal from. That's why it took me so long to kick this can of worms open, I didn't believe she would cheat on me, ever. So I was gaslighting myself in a way. I belive many BS does.

But she has many great qualities, no doubt. There is a reason I married her all these years ago. She stood by me through thick and thin, there were times when I was not doing very well careerwise, and she supported us all. She never let me down. She has a lot to offer, even now. I know I am not the best character judge after what happened, but as I said before, now I see the girl I married and not that person from last summer. That's why it's so hard to say I am done, that's the reason I am still here after almost 6 months going back and forth. There were times when I said to myself things would be for the best if she were not remorseful, if she left me for her AP, weren't sorry. I know it sound stupid, but that's how I felt at times. But she's still here, she didn't give up and now I feel like dick because I am not sure I have it in me to R. Doesn't that sound pathetic? A little bit.

When you write posts like these, it seems bizarre to me how this conversation has turned to whether you have really been "thinking deeply" about your course of action, or "neurotic pride", or how much you do or don't love your wife in order to accept her betrayal, lies and, deceit - and whatever other therapist's couch speculation/rationalization/rumination is being bandied about.

- You OBVIOUSLY are not ruled by pride, or else this would have been a done deal months ago (and that would not have made it a bad decision by the way)

- You OBVIOUSLY love your wife dearly - to the point she has taken advantage of your love in a most cruel way.

- You've OBVIOUSLY thought this through, in fact, I think you are OVERTHINKING IT.

***

Mr Flibble: Every time you have gotten results, it has been through ACTION. That doesn't mean you should stop thinking, or examining yourself - but this really, really isn't about you!!! It's about her.

- You TOOK ACTION when learning of her cheating.

- You TOOK ACTION to expose her, even giving her the chance to tell the truth.

- You TOOK ACTION to get the wheels of divorce moving

Do you think any of this information would have come to light if you didn't put on the pressure? If you had just said "I'm glad it was only a little kiss and squeeze, please don't do that again Honey!", trust me, she would not be distraught and ashamed of herself, she'd be relieved, she'd have no respect for you at all, and quite probably be on the road to further betrayal.

Think, yes! But take action, even more yes! Keep the wheels turning. She will respect that no matter how much she dislikes it.

Get the polygraph - see what shakes loose.

Do the divorce, see if she is truly committed to winning you back (if that is your desire).

Action is also not letting her "run the show" meanwhile. Back off of her apologies, sexual coercion, all of it.

This is serious. Work with the truth, make your decision from the truth.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 3:54 PM, March 18th (Thursday)]

Stop letting her apologize.

Seriously...stop being so accepting of her conversation. It is not an apology...it is a lie and you know it is a lie because you know they had sex and she is still dishonest about it.

Every apology should be met with a direct response of "Bullshit, you are lying to me right now about the sex, so I know you aren't sorry so save it for someone who doesn't know you". Follow it up with "you disrespect the marriage you claim to want to save when you continue to lie"...and walk off.

If you let her continue to lie to you, you will see lies as truth. It will beat you down.

Totally agree with Walking Home.

Apologetic lies are simply manipulative lies. Don't take the bait (again). You already know what's up.

You wrote above that she didn't respect you during the affair. Dude, she is not properly respecting you since it either with her lies and manipulation. All the respect you have gotten has been through your demanding it through action.

While you're at it, don't accept that she has destroyed all evidence. She probably has not, and should turn it over to you.

That's a polygraph question right there: "Do you still have any communications, evidence, mementos, or any other artifacts from your cheating relationship, or any other cheating relationships?"

Good luck Mr Flibble. I support your course of action.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 3:34 PM, March 18th (Thursday)]

Up until her A, I would say that my W was the best thing that ever happened to me, honestly. That's why this hurt so much, she was the last person I expected this kind of betrayal from. That's why it took me so long to kick this can of worms open, I didn't believe she would cheat on me, ever. So I was gaslighting myself in a way. I belive many BS does.

But she's still here, she didn't give up and now I feel like dick because I am not sure I have it in me to R. Doesn't that sound pathetic? A little bit.

It is a skilled manipulator that has this effect. You doubting that you have been wronged, that you are too hard on her.

Her sister is taking girls for a weekend, and we plan to do some paperwork for the divorce.

Would recommend you find a 3rd party to keep you both company for your "paper work." Have her sister keep the girls company at your home while you do your paper work.

The reason why I locked the door is because I don't want to do anything stupid like I did before. I have a VERY high libido, and since I started working out and got into shape it skyrocketed. And my wife is obviously in a "I will do anything" mode. Add us being locked in a house together and this might not end up well.

She knows me, she know where to push and as much as I hate to admit it, I am still very much attracted to her.

So long as you can only see the "good" in your wayward wife she will take advantage of you. You did not ask much aside from the truth. She refused to tell you. She omitted details, lied to you, minimized her involvement with the other man. More truth became available to you recently. That she had a burner phone and was coached on how to live her double life. If you think you have seen her worst you have not even scratched the surface.

You can certainly continue to underestimate your wife and the depth of her betrayal. You can continue to offer her the benefit of the doubt. She will take full advantage of you.

I am not encouraging you to necessarily be ruthless but realistic. See your wife for who she really is, not who you want to believe her to be. The woman you believe her to be is an act. Always has been.

She knows me, she know where to push and as much as I hate to admit it, I am still very much attracted to her.

Did she tell you when and where she destroyed the burner phone? How she disposed of the device remains? If the answer is no, try to look for it. You will find more truth on that device than you will ever get from her. So far your wife has proven to be no different than any other cheater. That means the phone will be a treasured memento of her illicit behavior. She won't be able to indulge again anytime soon so the phone and its contents will help to get her by until she believes you are complacent once more.

[This message edited by smolderingdark at 3:50 PM, March 18th (Thursday)]

She apologized again last night (and does so everyday) for all the lies and dishonesty.

You need physical and emotional distance from her. You need the mental space to clear your mind without the triggers and/or manipulations that she brings.

You determine your value to you which should always be set high. You also determine her value to you which it seems is also still quite high . If she has alot of great attributes then ofcourse this is not a simple decision . There is nothing pathetic about anything you are feeling or saying, ofcourse you are attached to the woman you still love even if she has hurt you. Ofcourse you cant understand how a good person can do such a bad thing .

All id suggest here is please make sure your therapist and you agree that your actions are primarily in your own best interests

[This message edited by siracha at 4:56 PM, March 18th (Thursday)]